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Revoking of SACF rifles & New Legislation (thread banned users in first post)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,405 ✭✭✭ BattleCorp


    I'd much rather keep my firearm. Selling it overseas isn't an option because you'd get fcukall for it compared to what we paid for it.

    I think it might be a case of telling the authorities 'see you in court'.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    If your license is revoked the firearm remains your property, I discussed this in another thread and how it is different to licensing, so you can store it in an RFD and I'd assume the PTB would seek proof it has been stored.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Battlecorp - At worst, I would expect the State to adequately compensate me for the cost of my firearm, which was by no means a cheap gun. And will they compensate me for the accessories that probably add up to over a thousand euro too?

    Going to play Devil's advocate here so don't shoot the messenger. Compensation would not be a required function of any forthcoming ban for two reasons:

    1. The firearm is still your property, they're not taking it from you only removing your ability to possess it via refusing a license.
    2. The "warning" from September 2015 made it clear that any license after that date would be revoked so they will say you had 6 years to either not license one or sell it. Now I know the time frame of 6 years is "fluid" as its ongoing but you get the idea. You were adequately warned.

    Battlecorp - I wouldn't expect things to go smoothly for the authorities. I expect there will be court cases and maybe more court cases because it's a bit ridiculous to allow someone to have a firearm for six or seven years and then swipe it back off them.

    Absolutely. Your biggest hurdle will be the "warning" about the introduction of future legislation, but on your side will be a ban via Dáil statement is not a ban, and the excessively long time between the statement and introduction of legislation. You could argue that if a Minster, in the future, wanted to ban any firearm without legislation they could simply keep making Dáil statements with no "end date" and any person licensing one after the statement runs the risk of having it revoked. This is illegal and is what has happened. Covid can explain the last 18 months but not the preceding 54 months.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,067 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Some facts &figures from the DOJ in a written reply to these questions have now been asked by 3 TDs.Two written and one on the Dail floor.

    The lad who gave those replies is BTW NOT the current minister for Justice but the minister for state at the Dept of Justice, James Browne TD. Former barrister and Wexford countisticy...A part of our land that I believe has THE biggest gun ownership population in the 26?

    According to DOJ figures in this reply ...

    Between 2015 and 2021 there have been 38 licenses issued. 2015[3] 2016 [0] 2017 [5] 2018 [13] 2019 [7] 2020 [7] 2021 [3]

    Unlscensed meaning [presumably in dealer storage] 51 " [3] " [2] " [11] " [10] " [5] " [6] " [14]

    Grand total 89 firearms to be concerned about. Or more realistically 38 licenses.

    Now depending to whom you listen to and the scuttlebutt can say these figures are BS and its a lot more, or a lot less and that's not all the restricted dealerships figures.

    So irrespective of what may or may not else be out there. This is the DOJ's official figures that we should work on.

    Can things be done...Yes of course, it is actually within ministerial power to grant exemptions and grandfather those 38 licenses. But it will need a concerted effort and a willingness for us to take it on. Hands up anyone seeing our established orgs taking this on?

    l We are still awaiting a "robust reply" from one to the DOJ about the secure receptacles from 2 years ago, and the other is playing at being an ostrich, and allowing this to kill off any future signups for gallery M1 or pistol cal carbine matches...

    Now if people would like to discuss alternatives please PM me...

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭ BSA International


    Taking a court cases does not always guarantee victory for the plaintiff. Only person guaranteed to win is your legal representative/s. The comment you quoted was iirc referencing those who lost licences issued after the cut off date for new fulbore pistol licences which may set legal precedent in the s/a rifle situation some may now be facing



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,067 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Won't make any difference, as those cases that were taken for applications post the cut-off date for CF pistols were [1] DC court cases and [2] ASFIK none were successful. The cases that won were previously legally held licenses that were revoked for not having a "good reason to posses"as the assumption was made that they were all used for IPSC shooting.

    The better option is to argue that as there was no firm timeframe given or still has to be given in enacting or adding this legislation the applicant is left in a no-mans land of legality.

    Just to use a broad brush example. The govt proposes to ban the import of new petrol and diesel cars by 2030... You have a timeframe for when this ban comes in to either save up to buy a ridiculous electric car or save up to get that dream car you always wanted. In this case this proposed revocation is under no time frame,and taking 7 years is hardly being prompt about things either.Also,what is the threat posed by 38 extra licenses? Claiming that "they are extremely dangerous weapons in the wrong hands" as per written reply letter,is Horse and bull manure of the highest order.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭ BSA International


    Fianna Fail killed f/b pistols. Now Fianna Fail, Fine Fail & Watermelons wanna do same to f/b s/a rifles. Same as last time it's at diversion and PR stunt.

    Me Fein won't do much if anything to save "us" so it's bend over time again . I wonder what's next on "their" list ........ 🤔



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,067 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    FF has always been anti-gun in legislation.

    TCO 1972 Dessie O Malley FF,

    Offensive weapons act 1990 W O Dea and R Burke FF

    Criminal justice misc provisions act mk 1 Dermot Aherne FF

    Criminal Misc provisions act mk 2 this propose by FG and being cemented into legislation by FF

    Moral...Quit voting FF if you want to have guns in Ireland.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭ judestynes


    OK. so really what we need is some of our own in the Dail.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,976 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    I can't imagine I'll get to many first preferences under a pro gun banner. Joking aside the next lad that comes canvassing will be asked their position on gun ownership. We need to become dare I say it, like lads in the US and be single issue voters.

    First they came for the socialists...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭ BSA International


    FG leadership made some big promises a few years ago after FF killed f/b pistols. NARGC asked it's membership to vote for them. Once in power they did NOTHING they promised to do.......



  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭ BSA International


    Even if we got a few in the system would negate them.

    What we need to do is same as NRA in US. Become a valuable voting block and lobby existing parties. Only problem is shooting organisations here are a joke!



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,976 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    Thanks for reminding me, that's what the next FGer will be told when they come looking for a vote.

    Are the Shinners the way to go, I presume they are pro gun?

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Not a hope. Without trying to drag the thread off topic, as its far too important to go on a political party ranking rant, they are adamantly anti fieldsport, country sports, hunting party and have previously voted for strong gun control and increased restrictions on firearm ownership.


    Frankly they seem worse than the crowd we have.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,067 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    How about instead of us bemoaning the uselessness of our political parties, and organisations that should be looking out for this.We collectively who are concerned make an effort to save ourselves and try dealing with this? While we still have a chance?

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭ judestynes


    We're all agreed this is something we ourselves have to solve. The big question is how? Our sport is the victim of negative public opinion. I know it's an uninformed opinion held by people who would struggle to name 4 or 5 government ministers or more than 2 of the signatories of our proclamation of independence but could tell you the names of every contestant on love island so how can can people like this be engaged , have our own reality show?? I know it's frustrating that even uninformed opinions have to count. As mentioned before in previous threads any attempt made by shooters to engage the media has been edited to show the sport in the worst possible light to justify the negative opinion. We may just have to accept, our sport doesn't fit in to this new world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,976 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    I know it's being defeatist however I'm in agreement. I'm after a conversation with a lad at work and he could not believe one could tender to shoot on Coilte land till I showed him. "What about people out walking" etc etc, oh trespassers I said, what entitlement do they have to be there? Person with gun = bad or in the wrong, end of. It started from his wife having rang him about lads out shooting ducks on a lake. They weren't even actively shooting, had just unpacked and were heading off. My Dad and I had the Gardaí called on us when we were zeroing a rifle on my uncles land years ago, thankfully it was a shooting buddy of his and he ended up having a shot. This was pre mobiles so they would have had to of gone home and still left so concerned that they called the Gardaí. Gun = bad.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,976 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭ BSA International


    Me feiners want to be the only ones with guns ........

    Have any of the shooting orgs been informed of this development re banning f/b s/a rifles ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,067 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Who said anything about courting public opinion on this matter??? This is something that can be discussed and sorted between concerned people/groups and the minister and the Dept.

    No need to involve or need the great unwashed in this. They have no understanding, or comprehension of this. Be like CERN scientists asking the man in the street about the possibility of the God particle existing for nanoseconds in the accelerator.🙄

    Cmon lads, we are talking about 39 licenses..Not hundreds, and do you think the established orgs will be too arsed ? NASRPC has gone into the "Popular People Front of Judea" mode and are going to have a meeting with the national committee this week!!! It's only been on the cards for the last six bloody years and directly affects you growing organisations membership and two disiplines.😣

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭ BSA International


    Fair enough Grizzly, none of my business so.

    You got your FUNI cape on and you gonna save the day?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,067 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Simple answer...YAWN!!...No one cares what John "Streaker" Carmody[as he is known down in Limerick as] has to say for himself. His thing was or is pulling PETA type stunts with female models in his Speedos and them in their bikinis and covering themselves in fake blood and lying on the sidewalk protesting multiple different animal rights issues. So that's why he has media coverage from these stunts and is a bit more photogenic and gay than the usual crop of harridans in the anti crowd.

    More interesting is this bunch of yahoos called the Irish Party for Animal Rights and Environment who started a petition on change.org to get Coilte to close down der hunting on their lets and are threatening direct action against deer stalkers down around WCork/Kerry.

    Which just happens to be former guerrilla country 100 years ago, and we are still looking for "disappeared" people from back then...

    Try "direct action" against some of the natives down there and there will be new "disappeared" to be looking for.😂

    One of their posts on FB Its worth reading for a laugh at the naiveity of this one-man band.which is literally what it is as he came onto FUNI on fB issuing all sorts of physical threats.


    The Deer/ Wild Mountain Goat/ Fowl hunting season or trophy hunting season begins today.

    The Hare coursing season begins shortly.

    The Fox hunting season begins shortly.

    The cruelty sport called Greyhound racing continues.

    State owned Coillte issue tenders so people can hunt and kill Sentient Beings.

    Kerry is now becoming the blood stained trophy capital of Ireland.

    Kerry is known for its welcomes, its beaches, it mountains, its hills, its valleys, its lakes and its peace and tranquility.

    Do we stand back and let this slaughter continue.

    Please join Irish Party for Animal Welfare and Environment today.

    You can be a silent or active member.

    PM or email [email protected]

    Or contact 087 636 3149

    We also need people on the ground to stand up to these blood stained hunters.

    When we have enough of member we can register as a Political Party in Ireland.

    Please sign up and share.

    Please be a Voice for the Voiceless.

    the petition link.Read the description of intent to cause problems. https://www.change.org/p/animal-rights-animal-welfare-animals-animal-cruelty-deer-hunting-trophy-hunting-wild-mountain-stop-state-owned-quillte-from-authorising-forests-for-trophy-hunting?recruiter=1221933875&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=3e892170-0054-11ec-be0d-17497f8018f3&utm_content=fht-30389691-en-gb%3A6

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,976 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    @Grizzly 45, while I see your point I'll have to disagree. It's all about reinforcement advertising. There's a billboard on the way into town and every second add is about how wrong greyhound racing is or the evils of live export of cattle. It doesn't matter that yer man is a numpty, there is an article on a nationwide broadcasters website calling us bloodthirsty.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭ judestynes


    Unfortunately Grizzly, we have consider what the public think. Every time some criminal does criminal sh1t with a firearm we get tarred with the same brush. It's sad but true. We're talking about people here, while a person is capable of logical and lateral thought, people are as thick as a bag of hammers and thick or not they still have the right to a vote. I fully agree that we need to change how the sport and us who participate in it are perceived, but I disagree that it has nothing to do with the public. It's upto us to educate them and if sensationalism works for the anti's then that's the route we ourselves should follow. Sensationalize a bloated deer herd destroying crops.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,976 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    Back to the issue at hand, what org with a bit of clout is going to champion this? Hard to see the NARGC rowing in for a few lads with semi autos.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 429 ✭✭ jb88


    And you believe its only 39 licences after you asked the minister to bring this whole issue up in the first case,mmm how little you know about everything



  • Registered Users Posts: 702 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    I doubt the NARGC will row in with anything like this, but I'd love to be pleasantly surprised.

    A few would be an underestimate I think though, Grizzly mentioned they thought it was only 39 licences, but that is very likely based on incomplete data(most gun dealers I know have sent no response to the enquiry, or a message along the lines of "aren't you(the DoJ) meant to keep track of that?".

    Couple that with the massive mess that is pulse and the lackadaisical way it is administered from one district to the other it is highly likely there are many missed numbers.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    I believe the figure of 39 is only representative of the number licensed between the statement in 2015 and today. Other figures include an additional 51 imported, presumably by RFDs, but as of yet unsold/unlicensed, but none of that includes the licensed firearm prior to Sept 2015 which would be exempt from future legislation.


    The number I least heard/saw was 167 prior to the statement in 2015. IOW that many, or possibly more, were already licensed. So the total number of SACF Rifles stands at over 200 which is more believeable, but as anyting prior to 2015 is "safe" its not counted.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭ BSA International


    In the past NARGC haven't "rowed in" behind members who had moderator refusals which affected a lot more NARGC members than this is likely to affect.

    Also, NARGC should only be "fighting" for NARGC members IF they do get involved. Anyone not a member should be represented by whoever they are a member/s of.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,067 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Says the man who has been in denial about this for the last 5 years. And has a vested intrest in this ,or maybe not??

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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