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South Africa violence and the country's future?

  • 23-07-2021 11:54pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,433 ✭✭✭✭


    Violence and looting in South Africa have reached new extremes in the last few weeks ostensibly over government corruption but unfortunately it's being used by criminals to indulge in their activities. I'm surprised this is not getting more coverage in the media


    What is the future for South Africa in your opinion? This was obviously not Nelson Mandela's vision and the country seems to be continuously spiralling toward a failed state.

    I've never been in South Africa, I don't know enough about the country or it's politics.

    Would appreciate it if someone from there or who has more knowledge of the country could let us know what is the situation? Media can sometimes exaggerate problems as well or give an unbalanced view. Some of the footage and imagery particularly in recent weeks is disturbing.

    Is the country actually headed for collapse?



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,500 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    Its ironic that since the end of apartheid the country has gotten worse and worse as those years have gone by.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    Political corruption and criminality at the highest level

    shows what happens when you put a former terrorist organisation in power

    A glimpse into our future if we arent careful.


    the other day I was chatting to a SA friend of mine and he is very worried about his parents who still live there , all they can do is buy ammunition and lots of it



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,163 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    the nuke station and the security of it is a big concern

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koeberg_Nuclear_Power_Station

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,500 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    Was that dig at sf really necessary ?

    Sf will be in power sooner or later.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭323


    Cant load the OP video, but can imagine well enough. No the media is not exaggerating, mystery here is why its not being reported on. Is it heading for collapse?

    SA has been in collapse for some time, and very quickly getting worse. Infrastructure collapsed, no trains any more, no electricity or water much of the time, rampant crime, totally corrupt and dysfunctional government.

    Many friends from there, some who have left, many still there, some in the process of trying to get out but can't. Told by one last month, he and his wife can but one of the kids passports has less than the 1 year validity left. Need over one remaining to get visa where they're going to, fairly standard, said they can't renew because their Department of Home Affairs like much of the government is totally dysfunctional at the moment and not issuing passports.

    A pity, such a beautiful country that had everything going for it, great climate, great people, abundant resources, everything. Mandela's Rainbow Nation, now just going the way of Africa. Regret not seeing more but consider myself lucky to have seen a fair bit of it before it got to this current sorry state.

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The real comparison with the ANC is Fianna Fail. A national movement that delivered the country from apartheid (as Fianna Fail viewed they redeemed Ireland from British rule); a broad political church of consequence that slowly rotted from the inside; viewing their hegemony as making them the eternal 'natural party of government' (if people recall, this talk was very common in the Bertie years); becoming institutionally venal and a vehicle for the cynical, vain and those on the take.

    The ANC has generated a political elite that you'd be tempted to say is every bit as bad as the white one that preceded it. The Mexican PRI party is another example of this phenomenon in action.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    not liking the facts doesn't change them bill

    terrorists make poor governments

    SA isnt the first or only country to suffer like this



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,500 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    Don't need terrorists to make poor governments.

    As if ff and fg are incorruptible. Lol

    The great Charles Haughey to name one in particular.......

    Anyway I won't derail the thread any further on that issue



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,742 ✭✭✭satguy


    White flight = poverty and decay,, just look at what happened to Detroit when all the whites moved out.

    I have never seen a good black run government in any state in Africa, it always ends the same way.

    While I never agreed with apartheid,, one must look at the way the country looked back then, and look at the mess its in now. 



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    FF largely shared power with FG. The ANC doesn’t share power.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,500 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    South Africa does have a violent history. 19th century South Africa in some ways was like the African version of the wild west.

    It is an interesting history. Boers v zulus, British v zulus, British v Boers etc

    A hobby of mine is painting military miniatures, the zulu war of 1879 is one of my favourite .




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    If we didn't have the release valve of immigration, where hundreds of thousands of underemployed young people who quit a dysfunctional Ireland for good over the decades, who knows what Ireland would have looked like. Bar the blip of Leamass (who ironically had a rather strong whiff of gunpowder off him) and aided by TK Whittaker's vision of a different economy, FF were as I described them. A post-conflict party, high on their own supply, enjoying electoral hegemony, who were stacked to the brim with mediocrities and the corrupt with ambition for themselves and not the country. Haughey would be well at home in the ANC - rhetoric, bluster, patronage, surrounded by servile acolytes and stuffing his pockets.

    The PRI in Mexico the same.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,430 ✭✭✭touts


    This has been coming for a long time. It is the typical problem with Socialist parties. In the West we think the ANC won by promising freedom. In South Africa the reality is the ANC won because they promised the people everything they ever wanted for free and someone else would pay. They got away with it for a while because the black population were coming from such a low base progress was possible without spending much money. But for the last 10 years it has really stalled. The corruption trials of Zuma etc have woken the people up to the fact that the socialist dream they were sold by the ANC doesn't exist and the only people who benefit are the elites of the party. The violence is a result of that. And interestingly the seeds of violence we see increasing on the streets of Dublin from disaffected youths comes from the same sort of empty promises where socialists like Sinn Fein and PBP are promising them everything they want if they just have the courage to seize it.

    How does this end. The ANC are definitely finished. There was still hope that a properly functioning democracy with a political spectrum of parties will emerge with sensible economic policies etc. But the recent violence may put an end to that especially if it spreads. It really will depend on what the majority want. A functioning Democratic state or the "socialist everything you want with sprinkles on top".



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Did you just link violence on the streets of Dublin to 'empty promises' of two parties that have never been in cabinet? How does that work? 😂

    The ANC is not a monolith (much like FF of old) it has left, right and centrist wings. Thabo Mbeki was explicit about this, that the ANC is not a socialist movement, but a national liberation movement, and he would not allow the socialist wing of the party to make it so. The party has regularly expelled far-left activists in the past (leading to the formation of the EFF, who I'm sure you are familiar with and could tell us loads about).

    If you want to make a 2D pixel art painting of a complex movement, go ahead, but you sound like Ben Shapiro-lite here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 908 ✭✭✭JPup


    Jesus Christ. I can’t believe someone is writing this racist filth on 2021. Pro apartheid nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    As cricket follower, you can see the total disaster that is occurring. The association who used to be one of the cricketing powers are now a basket case. Affirmative action has left scores of top players leave the country.

    Rugby is getting lucky in that the players can still represent the country when they leave but they are still losing players.

    It's all symptomatic of the state of affairs in the country. Anyone with any potential in any field is getting the hell out of there.

    As mentioned above, they have nuclear power in South Africa. Probably too far away to effect us of there is a disaster but I wouldn't be too keen to be their neighbours



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman





  • Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭323


    Careful, least you invite all sorts of accusations of racism and derail the thread.

    To be fair, don't think your totally correct as to the various black run governments, yes many, but not all have gone the same way.

    Botswana has done OK, one of the few to avoid a civil war. If remember right, read once, although small, it was the fastest growing economy in the world during the economic slump of the '70's. At the time they wisely didn't allow revolutionaries/terrorists from neighboring countries to setup camps inside their borders, avoiding conflict.

    Also need to check, told once that for a time Botswana had the highest number of woman in government of any country in the world. Therefore more common sense government, could be something to that.

    Ghana also not so bad, also avoided civil war, did run it into the ground pretty bad for a time but doing OK.

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's really hard to see how they can turn it around. It's looking more and more like a failed state.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,433 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    I don't understand why this is not reported here in the media at all. I know it's as far away as you can get but i've seen nothing certainly on Irish or UK news sites.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 81,056 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    I think sadly like this country the bulk of the population are committed to voting in the same chancers over and over again which will only end in the same results.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I've talked to a few white south Africans and the stories they've told me would chill you. Absolutely barbarian acts carried out on people. I worked with a few south Africans when I was in new Zealand. I found them to be very cocky and arrogant but seeing what they have to put up with over there I wouldn't blame them. It truly is a basket case.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    because to report the facts as they are would be seen as racist because it reflects badly on a African country and coz facts are racist i guess

    just look at jpups post above.


    South African politics have been a case study in corruption, greed and racism both before and after the end of apartheid. they are just less competent post apartheid

    as some one else above said most white south africans ive come across arent very nice people either especially the older ones



  • Registered Users Posts: 710 ✭✭✭TefalBrain


    A lot of these African nations are just ungovernable and violence and corruption is widespread. If only there was an obvious reason why 🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,943 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    I think its clear from watching that video why it's not being reported on Irish news.


    RTE would be accused of racism by some if they did.



  • Registered Users Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Yawlboy


    I worked on and off in South Africa from 2002 until 2010, spent a lot of time there and have many friends in the country.

    I ran a business there with a local white South African from 2005 until 2015. We provided services primarily to state companies, as a result of black ownership quotas we couldn't have more than 15 employees and we had to donate a percentage of our profits to local charities. To deal with state companies we had to go through local black owned entities, who added margin for processing invoices, they simply existed to make money.

    Power cuts, water shortages, lack of investment in infrastructure, etc are all due to mismanagement and corruption. Brain drain is also destroying the economy.

    The strangest conversation I had there was with a senior director within a huge state company, he said to me "Things were so much better under the previous regime" - he was the most senior black director in the company.



  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,158 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty




  • Registered Users Posts: 467 ✭✭nj27




  • Registered Users Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    And a bastardised version of Communism. Much like Mugabe's "Communist" Zimbabwe.

    Botswana is a great example of how you can build a prosperous democratic country in Africa with pretty limited natural resources compared to its neighbours.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,433 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog



    I agree with those saying there is a lesson here for us particularly in relation to the danger Sinn Fein pose for example.

    Who you choose to govern has consequences and what is happening in SA is so disturbing that people might think twice about populism elsewhere.

    The destination looks like Zimbabwe for SA.



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