South Africa violence and the country's future?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117682735#Comment_117682735

OK so third time lucky: would you deign to answer my question? Which was a better time for Zimbabwe - when it was run by whites or the current situation?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117682735#Comment_117682735

If your position is not entrenched then it should be straightforward to concede that overall Zimbabwe was better under Ian Smith than under Robert Mugabe. It doesn't equate to approval of the old system, it might make us uncomfortable, but it should be acknowledged.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117683243#Comment_117683243

This again, depended on the colour of your skin. As I am white, I would clearly say, it was better when Zimbabwe was run by whites and known as Rhodesia, or Southern Rhodesia.

One can call this racist, but gain, if I was in the situation I would not have chosen the colour of my skin, nor that my parents decided to move to Zimbabwe.

What I would have done, is left in time, - if that would have been possible. I think that in the 70ies most whites knew that "their days were numbered". I've met a couple of white Zimbabweans who were luck enough to sell and leave before all the issues started.

AbusesToilets

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I understand it Rhodesia did not have systems of apartheid in the fashion that SA did. At the time of it's declaration of independence, the claim was that blacks there had better rights than in the US, which would make the West's actions towards the Smith government rather hypocritical.

Edit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2nmc4j/was_rhodesia_as_racist_as_south_africa/

Interesting thread here engaging some of those topics.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117683417#Comment_117683417

Yes, it was never as bad as in SA. There was no Apartheid there. However Rhodesia operated some kind of land settlement policy. This resulted in a similar scenario than in SA. Different areas of living in different sections of cities and the country, better access to healthcare, education, etc... Certain land was dedicated to white settlers only right from the start. The other issue was also that white settlers originally didn't stay there very long so they had to turn to immigration into the country. I also recall white immigrants to Rhodesia never had a long term interest in staying there anyway.

In comparison to the US, it may be that blacks did actually have more perspectives in Rhodesia than in the US. I know that this was even the case among black soldiers in WW2 in occupied West-Germany where they had more freedom than back at home. Given this was the late 1940ies and early 1950ies, that's totally possible.

Martin Luther King was way later.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117683417#Comment_117683417

In Rhodesia you needed a certain amount of wealth to be eligible to vote - this disproportionately affected blacks than whites for obvious reasons - but there was no segregation like in SA. 75£ in property or 50£ per annum salary.

Most of the separatist movements in colonial Africa were funded by either the west or USSR to destabilise colonies or those who would ally with the other side.

AbusesToilets

From reading on that thread and elsewhere, it details a system that while perhaps not as brutal and extreme as Apartheid, was still fundamentally discriminatory against blacks. From a historical viewpoint, the question is whether Rhodesia could have moved in a similar direction as the US with the Civil Rights movement, and evolved into a more representative society.

Bob Bop Perono

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680539#Comment_117680539

Well, evidently if things pop off you can't really count on the government's full protection. Faith was already low anyways. Parts of KZN were genuinely like scenes from Mad Max for a couple of days. Community Policing Forums and private security firms set up road blocks to protect their areas and the police seemed grateful for the help. Communities and Taxi associations also quelled the unrest in Gauteng and ensured there was no looting in other parts of the country.

The police looked utterly useless throughout, to be honest, and I wouldn't be surprised if some were in on the plot in KZN. We'll see what comes out in the wash. The head of Police was in the media yesterday lamenting the fact he couldn't shoot looters. His position seems untenable, for other reasons that have just emerged.

Prior to this unrest, the goverment have being making plans to remove firearms that have been licensed for self defence. We'll see how that goes, but the case against just got a whole lot more compelling. It's the minister of police pushing for that. I'm not so sure his position is secure either. Lots of calls for him to be removed. Useless cnut.

Beasty

Yurt! threadbanned

livia21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117683720#Comment_117683720

Yip .

Married to a Boer for twenty years.children and grandchildren in Gauteng and we have had some sleepless night's lately.

But this had nothing to with Black against white or any type of race.Looters looting in support for Zuma who also looted the country.

I would be fairly confident from family that some SAPS were involved.I think some think that Community Policing was White's protecting their communities from Black's When in fact it was all race's protecting their communities from thug's

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117683886#Comment_117683886

Yes, but the ugly thought is, if Zuma looted the country so much, would that same kind of looting by a politician happen under a complete white government? It's a nasty question, but it's a question I would automatically ask myself.

1874

First time I met SA, they were white emigres? to Ireland to work.

Some were or seemed ok, some were not (a few even seemed blatantly racist), the latter somewhat disgusted me.

Thats said, everything I have seen, read, heard about SA, and mainly The ANC and the attitudes I have heard spoken on programmes of admittedly very few voices of poor black people , I wonder would I have been any different if I had been in the same position, I dont think so.

SA appears to have been ruined forever, I've no connection to SA, but I've been so appalled with anything I was aware of, that I just tuned it out, because it disgusts me in a different way now. First I heard of breakaway states, western ones?

Now, I wonder if any of those SA people lost their jobs in 2009, I actually hope they managed to change their citizenship to Ireland for their own sake. It didn't suprise me when Grainne Seoige and her husband? returned recently, it stunned me when I heard she went there.

Apartheid as disgusting as it was, appears only to have been matched by what the ANC have done to SA, just as bad, just different.

Bob Bop Perono

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117684123#Comment_117684123

"Apartheid as disgusting as it was, appears only to have been matched by what the ANC have done to SA, just as bad, just different"

No! Jesus. Wow! Haha fkn hell

livia21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117684041#Comment_117684041

I don't think it is a nasty question but the Apartheid goverment also looted the country..Did the white's riot ? No Why would they?

My husband (one of nine) @ 62 still believes sanctions made SA stronger..two of my sister in laws in Durban won't go to the beach because there is black's on it.They lament over how during apartheid the beach was less crowded.Seven of his siblings were AWB members..

It is Foked up globally what folk will do in favour of their favoured politicans..just look at US Jan 6th

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117684123#Comment_117684123

The thing is that Apartheid is also deeply rooted in SA history. Even before 1948, SA had similar laws in place, which aimed at segregation between black and white. These laws were not so much dating back to the English, but more to the Dutch / Boer settlers and were in place in the late 1800 or at least when the Union of South Africa was formed.

Kermit.de.frog

I think there is a similarity in SA politics to Irish politics to an extent. Corruption and incompetence met with "but apartheid..." in response is not a million miles away from "but the Brits..." here as was the trotted out paraphrasing excuse for shortcomings here.

But I really think after you have had 30 years of governance like the ANC there has to come a point where the bad outcomes in society are down to your choices and you can't keep harking back as an excuse regardless of how much legacy issues needed to be overcome.

Reading an article in the Spectator about the current issues and they are discussing the "taxi wars" currently going on in Cape Town this year. 82 people murdered for driving or using taxis on routes claimed by other taxi firms.

The level of violence is simply off the charts, I don't know how they can turn the country around?

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117686172#Comment_117686172

Every country has political corruption to some degree. There's virtually zero comparisons to draw between SA and Irelamd.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117687674#Comment_117687674

I'd say the conflict in Northern Ireland, the history of Ireland, and what the British did, and the situation in South Africa may have some similarities, even though they are mostly buried in history now.

textiles

Half S African, family left decades ago but visit and keep in touch with relatives and friends. A cousin was part of a neighbourhood armed group (with private security and police) who protected (successfully) a local mall from destruction over several days in KZN. The degree of complexity is overwhelming and the level of state corruption and incompetence utterly depressing. I sometimes check Daily Maverick (can't post link) for news analysis.

Ironically, as I was following the coverage of this kleptocracy, I was also reading about Davy's executives being rewarded with a lot of loot. No personal accountability for their deeds (the firm got the fine) and the relevant Minister is happy. Hardly in the same league as SA but ...

dfx-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117686172#Comment_117686172

South Africa's future will be determined by how low the ANC will go when they are really challenged electorally. Up to now, they've been able to rest on their laurels and "what they inherited". There still isn't a middle ground party of significance as an alternative.

I was in the country when Mbeki was being forced out and there was no consideration of anyone else but Zuma, so to see his corruption isn't surprising. His behaviour or attitude since being deposed is eye opening in its bravado, indicating there is no consequences..

Mugabe turned Zimbabwe onto its current path to win elections, the ANC haven't had to yet. Who challenges them - the Julius Malema type or others...who knows...

Randy Archer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117682541#Comment_117682541

What do you expect ? You waffling on about a region of the world that you have proven to know sweet FA about , and branding anyone racist without cause . You aren’t remotely smart enough to back up your claims …. You are being shown the appropriate level of respect and contempt for the disfenuous crap that you have uttered.

The only reason that you have been tolerated, as opposed to have been reported on (which is cowardly, snowflaky and pathetic to do) is because it’s hilarious watch you did further holes on something that you are out of your depth on

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117688455#Comment_117688455

The Brits colonised half the globe. I'd wager nearly every country in the world has been invaded at some point in its history. There's still sweet FA to compare between Ireland and SA in any meaningful way do why try?