South Africa violence and the country's future?

Kermit.de.frog

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JevGPfr7TvE

Violence and looting in South Africa have reached new extremes in the last few weeks ostensibly over government corruption but unfortunately it's being used by criminals to indulge in their activities. I'm surprised this is not getting more coverage in the media

What is the future for South Africa in your opinion? This was obviously not Nelson Mandela's vision and the country seems to be continuously spiralling toward a failed state.

I've never been in South Africa, I don't know enough about the country or it's politics.

Would appreciate it if someone from there or who has more knowledge of the country could let us know what is the situation? Media can sometimes exaggerate problems as well or give an unbalanced view. Some of the footage and imagery particularly in recent weeks is disturbing.

Is the country actually headed for collapse?

Billcarson

Its ironic that since the end of apartheid the country has gotten worse and worse as those years have gone by.

mikethecop

Political corruption and criminality at the highest level

shows what happens when you put a former terrorist organisation in power

A glimpse into our future if we arent careful.

the other day I was chatting to a SA friend of mine and he is very worried about his parents who still live there , all they can do is buy ammunition and lots of it

Calahonda52

the nuke station and the security of it is a big concern

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koeberg_Nuclear_Power_Station

Billcarson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117655557#Comment_117655557

Was that dig at sf really necessary ?

Sf will be in power sooner or later.

323

Cant load the OP video, but can imagine well enough. No the media is not exaggerating, mystery here is why its not being reported on. Is it heading for collapse?

SA has been in collapse for some time, and very quickly getting worse. Infrastructure collapsed, no trains any more, no electricity or water much of the time, rampant crime, totally corrupt and dysfunctional government.

Many friends from there, some who have left, many still there, some in the process of trying to get out but can't. Told by one last month, he and his wife can but one of the kids passports has less than the 1 year validity left. Need over one remaining to get visa where they're going to, fairly standard, said they can't renew because their Department of Home Affairs like much of the government is totally dysfunctional at the moment and not issuing passports.

A pity, such a beautiful country that had everything going for it, great climate, great people, abundant resources, everything. Mandela's Rainbow Nation, now just going the way of Africa. Regret not seeing more but consider myself lucky to have seen a fair bit of it before it got to this current sorry state.

Yurt2

The real comparison with the ANC is Fianna Fail. A national movement that delivered the country from apartheid (as Fianna Fail viewed they redeemed Ireland from British rule); a broad political church of consequence that slowly rotted from the inside; viewing their hegemony as making them the eternal 'natural party of government' (if people recall, this talk was very common in the Bertie years); becoming institutionally venal and a vehicle for the cynical, vain and those on the take.

The ANC has generated a political elite that you'd be tempted to say is every bit as bad as the white one that preceded it. The Mexican PRI party is another example of this phenomenon in action.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117655671#Comment_117655671

not liking the facts doesn't change them bill

terrorists make poor governments

SA isnt the first or only country to suffer like this

Billcarson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117655733#Comment_117655733

Don't need terrorists to make poor governments.

As if ff and fg are incorruptible. Lol

The great Charles Haughey to name one in particular.......

Anyway I won't derail the thread any further on that issue

satguy

White flight = poverty and decay,, just look at what happened to Detroit when all the whites moved out.

I have never seen a good black run government in any state in Africa, it always ends the same way.

While I never agreed with apartheid,, one must look at the way the country looked back then, and look at the mess its in now. 

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117655722#Comment_117655722

FF largely shared power with FG. The ANC doesn’t share power.

Billcarson

South Africa does have a violent history. 19th century South Africa in some ways was like the African version of the wild west.

It is an interesting history. Boers v zulus, British v zulus, British v Boers etc

A hobby of mine is painting military miniatures, the zulu war of 1879 is one of my favourite .

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117655755#Comment_117655755

If we didn't have the release valve of immigration, where hundreds of thousands of underemployed young people who quit a dysfunctional Ireland for good over the decades, who knows what Ireland would have looked like. Bar the blip of Leamass (who ironically had a rather strong whiff of gunpowder off him) and aided by TK Whittaker's vision of a different economy, FF were as I described them. A post-conflict party, high on their own supply, enjoying electoral hegemony, who were stacked to the brim with mediocrities and the corrupt with ambition for themselves and not the country. Haughey would be well at home in the ANC - rhetoric, bluster, patronage, surrounded by servile acolytes and stuffing his pockets.

The PRI in Mexico the same.

touts

This has been coming for a long time. It is the typical problem with Socialist parties. In the West we think the ANC won by promising freedom. In South Africa the reality is the ANC won because they promised the people everything they ever wanted for free and someone else would pay. They got away with it for a while because the black population were coming from such a low base progress was possible without spending much money. But for the last 10 years it has really stalled. The corruption trials of Zuma etc have woken the people up to the fact that the socialist dream they were sold by the ANC doesn't exist and the only people who benefit are the elites of the party. The violence is a result of that. And interestingly the seeds of violence we see increasing on the streets of Dublin from disaffected youths comes from the same sort of empty promises where socialists like Sinn Fein and PBP are promising them everything they want if they just have the courage to seize it.

How does this end. The ANC are definitely finished. There was still hope that a properly functioning democracy with a political spectrum of parties will emerge with sensible economic policies etc. But the recent violence may put an end to that especially if it spreads. It really will depend on what the majority want. A functioning Democratic state or the "socialist everything you want with sprinkles on top".

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117655822#Comment_117655822

Did you just link violence on the streets of Dublin to 'empty promises' of two parties that have never been in cabinet? How does that work? 😂

The ANC is not a monolith (much like FF of old) it has left, right and centrist wings. Thabo Mbeki was explicit about this, that the ANC is not a socialist movement, but a national liberation movement, and he would not allow the socialist wing of the party to make it so. The party has regularly expelled far-left activists in the past (leading to the formation of the EFF, who I'm sure you are familiar with and could tell us loads about).

If you want to make a 2D pixel art painting of a complex movement, go ahead, but you sound like Ben Shapiro-lite here.

JPup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117655702#Comment_117655702

Jesus Christ. I can’t believe someone is writing this racist filth on 2021. Pro apartheid nonsense.

Richard Hillman

As cricket follower, you can see the total disaster that is occurring. The association who used to be one of the cricketing powers are now a basket case. Affirmative action has left scores of top players leave the country.

Rugby is getting lucky in that the players can still represent the country when they leave but they are still losing players.

It's all symptomatic of the state of affairs in the country. Anyone with any potential in any field is getting the hell out of there.

As mentioned above, they have nuclear power in South Africa. Probably too far away to effect us of there is a disaster but I wouldn't be too keen to be their neighbours

Richard Hillman

323

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117655752#Comment_117655752

Careful, least you invite all sorts of accusations of racism and derail the thread.

To be fair, don't think your totally correct as to the various black run governments, yes many, but not all have gone the same way.

Botswana has done OK, one of the few to avoid a civil war. If remember right, read once, although small, it was the fastest growing economy in the world during the economic slump of the '70's. At the time they wisely didn't allow revolutionaries/terrorists from neighboring countries to setup camps inside their borders, avoiding conflict.

Also need to check, told once that for a time Botswana had the highest number of woman in government of any country in the world. Therefore more common sense government, could be something to that.

Ghana also not so bad, also avoided civil war, did run it into the ground pretty bad for a time but doing OK.

It's really hard to see how they can turn it around. It's looking more and more like a failed state.

Kermit.de.frog

I don't understand why this is not reported here in the media at all. I know it's as far away as you can get but i've seen nothing certainly on Irish or UK news sites.

Atlantic Dawn

I think sadly like this country the bulk of the population are committed to voting in the same chancers over and over again which will only end in the same results.

I've talked to a few white south Africans and the stories they've told me would chill you. Absolutely barbarian acts carried out on people. I worked with a few south Africans when I was in new Zealand. I found them to be very cocky and arrogant but seeing what they have to put up with over there I wouldn't blame them. It truly is a basket case.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117657943#Comment_117657943

because to report the facts as they are would be seen as racist because it reflects badly on a African country and coz facts are racist i guess

just look at jpups post above.

South African politics have been a case study in corruption, greed and racism both before and after the end of apartheid. they are just less competent post apartheid

as some one else above said most white south africans ive come across arent very nice people either especially the older ones

TefalBrain

A lot of these African nations are just ungovernable and violence and corruption is widespread. If only there was an obvious reason why 🙄

NIMAN

I think its clear from watching that video why it's not being reported on Irish news.

RTE would be accused of racism by some if they did.

Yawlboy

I worked on and off in South Africa from 2002 until 2010, spent a lot of time there and have many friends in the country.

I ran a business there with a local white South African from 2005 until 2015. We provided services primarily to state companies, as a result of black ownership quotas we couldn't have more than 15 employees and we had to donate a percentage of our profits to local charities. To deal with state companies we had to go through local black owned entities, who added margin for processing invoices, they simply existed to make money.

Power cuts, water shortages, lack of investment in infrastructure, etc are all due to mismanagement and corruption. Brain drain is also destroying the economy.

The strangest conversation I had there was with a senior director within a huge state company, he said to me "Things were so much better under the previous regime" - he was the most senior black director in the company.

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658212#Comment_117658212

Threadbanned

nj27

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFfKfm_5Ld4

Mike Murdock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658130#Comment_117658130

And a bastardised version of Communism. Much like Mugabe's "Communist" Zimbabwe.

Botswana is a great example of how you can build a prosperous democratic country in Africa with pretty limited natural resources compared to its neighbours.

Kermit.de.frog

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J4VT6x8yo7g

I agree with those saying there is a lesson here for us particularly in relation to the danger Sinn Fein pose for example.

Who you choose to govern has consequences and what is happening in SA is so disturbing that people might think twice about populism elsewhere.

The destination looks like Zimbabwe for SA.

Varik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117660407#Comment_117660407

Limited natural resources excluding all the mining which pays for everything.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117661276#Comment_117661276

I'll divide this response into two

(1). I'll not dispute that some of SF's communications have elements of populism about them, but to characterize them as out-and-out populists, and particularly in the Irish context doesn't really wash given other party's histories. Fianna Fail are really the OGs of populism in Ireland. For the longest time they were the 'keepers of the flame' 'the ordinary plain man's party' again' 'them fellas above in suits in Dublin' defending their interests against pernicious elites (even when they're the one with the hands in the cookie jar). A long history of buying elections and an unfortunate history of running the economy into the wall. As I said earlier, we should be thankful young men could take off to London and Chicago pretty much at will over the course of our history since independence. Scenes like the above video would have been very probable had that escape hatch not been available. Easy to forget that the government of days gone by intensely lobbied the US to keep on taking our young at various points. Unemployed South Africans have nowhere to go. We've always had a populist streak running through our political culture - independents engage in it on the regular and Labour have form going back through the years. The only major party that can credibly claim not to have really engaged in populism (although Leo has dabbled with inverse populism with his 'early riser' schtick) is Fine Gael, because they have historically been too tied to certain interest groups for them to credibly get away with it.

(2) Populism relies on there being some fanciful grand narrative of corrupt elites looting the country. This isn't a conspiracy in South Africa. The ANC and their enablers in the residual large industries in SA have ransacked the public purse since the end of aparthied. South Africa is the number one most unequal economy in the world by gini coeificient measures. Think about that. It's not kind of unequal, it's a global statistical outlier. About two percent of people in the country live lives as we would, the other 98 percent have next to nothing and have always had next to nothing. First world opulance for a tiny sliver of the population, and squalor for the rest. Quaint ideas like tut-tutting about mean tweets in Ireland and drawing inferences to the world of populism is something you can do, but it bears little relevance to the hellscape of SA and is almost completely besides the point.*

*There is by the way an out and out and very dangerous populist party in SA, and it's not the ANC. Julius Malema's EFF are what you're looking for if you're seeking to tar someone with the populist brush. You'll probably be hearing more from them on the international stage once this is done. The ANC are just vanilla goons in suits with a far too big cohort of kleptocrats and political incompetants.

whisky_galore

Reason it's not being reported all that much is that it's not a neat narrative, ie bad white fella, for certain interests.

I had to chuckle at a recent SA segment on Newstalk, a nostalgic love-in about Dunnes strikes and Mandela. Obvs not a whisper about what's going down now. That's about the only SA related things Irish media can handle.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658379#Comment_117658379

I do a lot of international work and have heard the same from different South African companies and people (Not just today or yesterday either)

The "white flight" & " Brain drain" are definitely more noticeable in recent years; a lot more white SA CV's coming across the desk. Eager to move and their parents/ families eyeing up west coast America more and more from what I've seen.

SEPT 23 1989

Ethiopia is booming

strange how things work out

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117662634#Comment_117662634

Interesting, seems to be booming alright. Although a lot of it seems to be from Chinese investment, hopefully turns out OK long term for them.

Butson

Family member lived their for 6 years. Got out last year.

Country is a total basket case. The stuff he saw, you could write a book. Attended more than one funeral where innocent people were kicked to death for simply nothing. In one case just walking down the street.

The liberal media here will never report on this though, doesn't suit their narrative.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117662634#Comment_117662634

Ethiopia is staring down a potential default. Inflation outstrips GDP growth by about a factor of 4 at the moment (inflation is running at approx 20%, not good news for a developed economy). It's devaluing its currency and its foreign currency reserves are being undermined by the Fed printing dollars. Currency devaluation in a developing economy is usually a Hail Mary pass to stimulate artificial productivity at the expense of structural reforms which are unpalatable. Ethiopia is a country that bet big on infrastructure, but a significant currency devaluation and hemorrhaging dollars mean inputs from abroad become a lot more expensive leading to cost overruns on big-ticket projects like dams.

Like all developing countries, its economy is precarious. It's a country worth watching as they have had massive population growth (and accompanying impressive GDP growth), but GDP (like Ireland lest we be reminded) doesn't tell the whole story.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658212#Comment_117658212

Hardly anything to do with the way Europe carved it up? Look at ourselves and we only had one border imposed on us.

Kermit.de.frog

To be fair Sky News did do a report so might be exaggerating to say it's totally not reported.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HvIFNe2hYUU

It's exactly the same as the "protests" in the US just on a bigger scale in a smaller country. Let's be real, this is not protest. It's just criminal anarchy and looting.

It is a very pertinent question though - how long can a country go on like that?

The government there want to expropriate land with no compensation. Same thing happened in Zimbabwe.

Reading the CIA world factbook for South Africa, it says that life expectancy in 2008 was only 43 years of age. That's incredible, although now it's risen to 63, which while still not great is a big improvement.

They have control over their fertility at 2.2 which should in theory allow them to develop a properly functioning economy and society.

The overall crime levels are frightening though. Not a country I'd like to live in or raise children.

biko

SA have been circling the drain a long time now. It will turn into Zimbabwe and totally corrupt itself.

Everything will be the white man's fault of course even though whites hasn't held power in over a generation.

Kermit.de.frog

Is partition an openly discussed possibility in South Africa on either side?

Jacovs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117665195#Comment_117665195

Like this?

https://capexit.org/

Slideways

Ms Slideways is South African and her parents are there. She is worried sick about them, even more so of late.

I have worked with a heap of saffas and at first I thought they were the most arrogant bastards but it’s mostly just the phrasing they use that makes them seem that way.

The country is circling the drain because the clowns are now running the circus. Zuma was a crook and Ramaphosa is also a crook but even dumber than zuma if anyone thought that was possible

Melanchthon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117666468#Comment_117666468

Read a few things that talk about how the current disorder is more about internal faction fighting in the ANC with this being the Zuma faction putting on pressure with an ethnic aspect in relation to the Zulu

Thoughts?

AbusesToilets

Makes the West's actions towards Rhodesia worse in hindsight.

John Doe1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU4m8hkf-O0

The country is a basket case now and I do not see how to can regain its former economic postion.

Also, regarding the white farmer murders, I'm sure the far left secretly love the idea of the former colonial masters being murdered. Its not a form of ethnic cleansing though, its justice....

Atlantic Dawn

Perhaps if they showed videos of Fianna Fail croyme 1980-2010 people would see sense in their politicians being corrupt fookers exploiting and destroying the resources of their country for their own and their families personal enrichment. We don't seem to see this here.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117662634#Comment_117662634

Don't mention the situation in the Tigray region though,

surprised there hasn't been a thread on that here at all,

https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/conflict-ethiopia