DART+ (DART Expansion)

CatInABox · 26-06-2021 10:15pm

DoctorPan wrote: »

Funnily enough I'm out this week surveying the stations in relation to passenger capacity and their ability to handle the projected loads and access points. I'll see what I can slip in!

Ha, funny how things can work out somethings. I'll admit Killester is probably able to handle the passengers, but it's in a very wheelchair hostile area, with paths that wouldn't fit a small buggy, never mind a wheelchair.

It'd seem relatively easy to me to put a long ramp down from Collins Ave down to the platforms, but I'll admit that I've no engineering skill whatsoever. An entrance there would put an entrance closer to a BusConnects spine and an orbital, while also improving wheelchair access.

Great that they're even looking into, and thanks for responding here, be very easy to say nothing.

strassenwo!f · 27-06-2021 1:24am

densification wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/railways-need-660m-more-for-upgrading-1.370721

NOTE: This article is from 2003

Thanks for that. My earliest frame of reference is around 2005, when the DART Underground was projected to cost round 1.2 billion euro.

spacetweek · 27-06-2021 10:10pm

The article predicts 54-76M pax/year by 2020.

In fact in 2019 the figure was only 50 million. This is still a huge increase since 2003.

densification · 28-06-2021 1:05pm

spacetweek wrote: »

The article predicts 54-76M pax/year by 2020.

In fact in 2019 the figure was only 50 million. This is still a huge increase since 2003.

No Covid, we would've been at the low end of that estimate. Not bad considering it was based on continuing massive economic growth of the early 2000s and obviously didn't account for a massive recession.

densification · 28-06-2021 1:14pm

DoctorPan wrote: »

I'm afraid I'm not until they get published for public consulation but I can mention that there's tweaks to station layouts at Howth Junct, Clongriffin and Malahide for turnbacks/shuttle services.

Howth-Howth Junction probably should be a shuttle but that's gonna be very politically toxic when it happens.

It'll improve punctuality and frequency of other Northern Line services, but rich people in Howth will lose their direct trains to town and have to get off and change at Howth Junction.

I'd want to see some stations improvements at HJ. Its design and clientele aren't the most pleasant. Definitely in the top 3 dodgiest stations on the Dart.

LXFlyer · 28-06-2021 1:21pm

densification wrote: »

Howth-Howth Junction probably should be a shuttle but that's gonna be very politically toxic when it happens.

It'll improve punctuality and frequency of other Northern Line services, but rich people in Howth will lose their direct trains to town and have to get off and change at Howth Junction.

I'd want to see some stations improvements at HJ. Its design and clientele aren't the most pleasant. Definitely in the top 3 dodgiest stations on the Dart.

They would get a 10 minute frequency on the branch though which would be at least double the current one.

GerardKeating · 28-06-2021 1:29pm

densification wrote: »

Howth-Howth Junction probably should be a shuttle but that's gonna be very politically toxic when it happens

This might be made more palatible if HJ was revamped and the branch extended.

One could extend it from "Howth Junction/ Donaghmede" to Coolock and link to Metro North.

densification · 28-06-2021 1:33pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

They would get a 10 minute frequency on the branch though which would be at least double the current one.

A 100% increase in services overall but a 100% decrease in direct services.

I think most of them would prefer the current timetable and I can't blame them tbh.

But it's for the greater good: the people of Howth aren't more important than Balbriggan, Drogheda etc who need a better, more frequent service.

BonnieSituation · 28-06-2021 1:54pm

It would strike me as the obvious solution to the HJ/D anti social behaviour and general kip problem to increase its use by having the shuttle.

If EVERYONE had to hop off at HJ/D going to Howth then it stands to reason that the long-standing issues would reduce and dissipate.

densification · 28-06-2021 1:59pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It would strike me as the obvious solution to the HJ/D anti social behaviour and general kip problem to increase its use by having the shuttle.

If EVERYONE had to hop off at HJ/D going to Howth then it stands to reason that the long-standing issues would reduce and dissipate.

Ye, that's a good point. It's not a very heavily used stop. Some more passive surveillance wouldn't hurt. I think it has Irish Rail security there full time now and Gardaí assisting ticket inspectors at weekends.

lucernarian · 28-06-2021 2:13pm

DoctorPan wrote: »

Funnily enough I'm out this week surveying the stations in relation to passenger capacity and their ability to handle the projected loads and access points. I'll see what I can slip in!

I'd have to flag Clontarf Road as an exceptionally "economic" build, unnecessarily far away from very densely populated areas (East Wall) and large centres of employment (East Point + other nearby offices). And the overbridge and narrow staircase makes Drumcondra feel like Shinjuku station in comparison. Plus complete lack of permeability from the nearby Fairview. Disaster of a station in every way.

densification · 28-06-2021 2:50pm

lucernarian wrote: »

I'd have to flag Clontarf Road as an exceptionally "economic" build, unnecessarily far away from very densely populated areas (East Wall) and large centres of employment (East Point + other nearby offices). And the overbridge and narrow staircase makes Drumcondra feel like Shinjuku station in comparison. Plus complete lack of permeability from the nearby Fairview. Disaster of a station in every way.

Clontarf road platforms should be right up to the road (like drumcondra) imo. It was clearly designed for people to drive there and park. An urban park and ride one station away from the core city centre.

Drumcondra could do with another entrance on St Anne’s Road. the current entrance just can’t handle many passengers. I think we should also move away from a barrier system to a luas style system. If metro and luas are tag on tag off, the Dart should be too.

AngryLips · 28-06-2021 3:42pm

Clontarf Road could benefit from being removed completely and replaced by two stations, one over East Wall Road and another just where the line meets the Malahide Road up a bit from Bram Stoker Park.

GerardKeating · 28-06-2021 4:52pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Clontarf Road could benefit from being removed completely and replaced by two stations, one over East Wall Road and another just where the line meets the Malahide Road up a bit from Bram Stoker Park.

Having a station where the line crosses the Clontarf Road, or even just before the Howth Road, should be easily doable.

But would a station fit where the line crosses the Tolka River.

LXFlyer · 28-06-2021 5:23pm

densification wrote: »

Clontarf road platforms should be right up to the road (like drumcondra) imo. It was clearly designed for people to drive there and park. An urban park and ride one station away from the core city centre.

Drumcondra could do with another entrance on St Anne’s Road. the current entrance just can’t handle many passengers. I think we should also move away from a barrier system to a luas style system. If metro and luas are tag on tag off, the Dart should be too.

You can’t put platforms right up to the road due to the northbound exit tracks out of the DART depot. That’s why the station is where it is.

bk · 28-06-2021 8:10pm

While Clontarf Road is far from ideal, I don't think it makes sense to move it either.

It is quiet accessible to East Point Business Park with the free shuttle buses that service the business park. In fact I think it is one of the better examples of service integration here in Ireland and one that cold be learned from.

As for moving it closer to East Wall, I don't think it would bring enough demand to justify it. East Wall is already so close to the city, it is within easy walking/cycling distance and it is very well served by multiple high frequency bus routes across multiple stops around the area.

With many of these closer bus stops having frequencies of 3 minutes or less almost right on peoples door steps, would it make sense for them to walk further to get a DART at a 10 minute or worse frequency?

You do need to be careful and consider what type of service it is, is it a mass transit frequent stop type service or a more longer distance commuter type service with less stops?

You would want to be careful of making it like Dublin Bus with far too many stops, too close to one another and thus a slower service.

gjim wrote: »

you could right that I'm getting into a flap over nothing, bk. However I had a look around at other commuter BEMU systems globally and maybe wikepedia is out of date in this regard since the latest dates seem to be 2019/2020, but there isn't any? Austria were trialing them and the Talent 3 project page says 7 trains to be delivered and that 21 trains had been ordered in Germany. The Japan BEMU is a tiny 20 train set that links two small towns 25k and 30k populations 20km apart. I don't like the idea of IR being the QA for a new train technology.

It is certainly newer tech. But it is certainly taking off at the moment, with multiple countries making big orders, for instance Germany placed an order for €600 million worth of trains, so we are far from being alone on this.

It really shouldn't be that cutting edge, EV buses are well proven at this stage and it should be just a case of scaling it up for trains. It shouldn't be a mystery for engineers to work out the required battery capacity for the given weight and size of trains.

AngryLips · 28-06-2021 8:40pm

bk wrote: »

As for moving it closer to East Wall, I don't think it would bring enough demand to justify it. East Wall is already so close to the city, it is within easy walking/cycling distance and it is very well served by multiple high frequency bus routes across multiple stops around the area.

Well I imagine there would be many benefits to better connecting Dart to East Wall besides getting people into the city centre.

Frankly, Clontarf Road is so disconnected from its surroundings as to be practically useless, and if Istanbul can build a transit station here then I don't understand why we can make Clontarf Road a bit more convenient to its surrounding neighbourhoods. The location of the station makes it feel unsavory and remote, sell the land for some apartments and use it to fund a better transit hub I say.

halic-metro-transport-villes-durables-istanbul-turquie.jpg?itok=l1RZ8k_C

halic-metro-transport-villes-durables-istanbul-turquie.jpg?itok=l1RZ8k_C

donvito99 · 28-06-2021 8:53pm

You could bring the northbound platform to the other side of Clontarf road, with access from the road but also via Charlemont lane, which makes Copeland Avenue and the Howth Road highly accessible. You'd duplicate lifts and gate lines but it is doable given the space there.

bk · 28-06-2021 9:00pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Well I imagine there would be many benefits to better connecting Dart to East Wall besides getting people into the city centre.

LOL, I knew someone would say that.

You know perfectly well that the vast majority of trips are into the city center. Other trip generators wouldn't break single digits and you want to spend millions to move a station for that! It isn't like people in East Wall aren't willing to walk 10 minutes if they were heading to Howth, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't improve the accessibility of the existing station, but moving it doesn't make sense.

donvito99 · 28-06-2021 9:06pm

bk wrote: »

LOL, I knew someone would say that.

You know perfectly well that the vast majority of trips are into the city center. Other trip generators wouldn't break single digits and you want to spend millions to move a station for that! It isn't like people in East Wall aren't willing to walk 10 minutes if they were heading to Howth, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't improve the accessibility of the existing station, but moving it doesn't make sense.

The station is there and you may as well let it operate just as any other station. There are lots of people continuing past Tara and Pearse to Grand Canal Dock and Lansdowne Road. Fairview, Marino and the bits of Clontarf in proximity to the station are as far from the city as Lansdown Road, so I don't know why you'd distinguish it?

densification · 28-06-2021 9:06pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Well I imagine there would be many benefits to better connecting Dart to East Wall besides getting people into the city centre.

Frankly, Clontarf Road is so disconnected from its surroundings as to be practically useless, and if Istanbul can build a transit station here then I don't understand why we can make Clontarf Road a bit more convenient to its surrounding neighbourhoods. The location of the station makes it feel unsavory and remote, sell the land for some apartments and use it to fund a better transit hub I say.

I think you're being a bit harsh on Clontarf Road. It's definitely not a well thought out station but it's still used by over 2000 people per day. Malahide, Killester and Raheny are the only stations on the Northern Dart that are busier.

It's certainly not well integrated into its surroundings, but that can change with a bit of money.

The Dart does not offer good penetration into the city centre (unlike Dublin Bus which does). People from Drumcondra don't really use the station, they get the bus as it goes to way more places at a much higher frequency.

bk · 28-06-2021 9:26pm

donvito99 wrote: »

The station is there and you may as well let it operate just as any other station. There are lots of people continuing past Tara and Pearse to Grand Canal Dock and Lansdowne Road. Fairview, Marino and the bits of Clontarf in proximity to the station are as far from the city as Lansdown Road, so I don't know why you'd distinguish it?

Of course and I was thinking the same. While it is far from ideal, there are many people who live just across the road from it and close by in Fairview, Marino, etc. who do use it for such trips. And if you were to move it to East Wall, you'd be moving it away from them.

I'm not sure East Wall would have all that much higher catchment.

densification wrote: »

The Dart does not offer good penetration into the city centre (unlike Dublin Bus which does). People from Drumcondra don't really use the station, they get the bus as it goes to way more places at a much higher frequency.

Yep, because they are different type of services. At this close to the city, Bus and Tram makes more sense as it is more frequent and has more convenient stops.

DART is a more longer distance commuter service, of course you will use it if going somewhere other then the city, but I can't see moving it making sense.

lucernarian · 28-06-2021 9:31pm

bk wrote: »

LOL, I knew someone would say that.

You know perfectly well that the vast majority of trips are into the city center. Other trip generators wouldn't break single digits and you want to spend millions to move a station for that! It isn't like people in East Wall aren't willing to walk 10 minutes if they were heading to Howth, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't improve the accessibility of the existing station, but moving it doesn't make sense.

I don't know where you're coming from on this - the fact it requires a free shuttle bus to be viable as a station is more a damning indictment of it than it is of its "success".

It's far more than 10 minutes walk to get to Clontarf road from almost any part of East Wall unless you're extremely selective about it. And a station more accessible to east wall would also be within 15 minute's range of croke Park, almost as close as Drumcondra is already.

bk · 28-06-2021 9:53pm

lucernarian wrote: »

I don't know where you're coming from on this - the fact it requires a free shuttle bus to be viable as a station is more a damning indictment of it than it is of its "success".

It is a 10 minute walk and a pleasant one at that to the Business Park. On a wet day, it is nicer to just jump in the shuttle bus, but if it wasn't there, it would still be within easy walking distance.

A 10 minute walk is considered completely normal for a rail station.

lucernarian wrote: »

It's far more than 10 minutes walk to get to Clontarf road from almost any part of East Wall unless you're extremely selective about it. And a station more accessible to east wall would also be within 15 minute's range of croke Park, almost as close as Drumcondra is already.

It is exactly a 10 minute walk, 800m's from the entrance to the DART station to East Wall Road. Sure, they are plenty of parts of East Wall further away then that. But then if you moved the station, you would also move it much further away from the people of Clontarf Road/Marino/Fairview who currently have it on it's doorstep. No one who makes this suggestion, seems to be thinking about their reaction to such a move.

I'll give you Croker, that would be handy.

BonnieSituation · 28-06-2021 10:17pm

densification wrote: »

Ye, that's a good point. It's not a very heavily used stop. Some more passive surveillance wouldn't hurt. I think it has Irish Rail security there full time now and Gardaí assisting ticket inspectors at weekends.

Passive surveillance is the only long term solution to such black spots. And it almost always works.

AngryLips · 28-06-2021 11:07pm

Is the shuttle bus just for staff working at East Point business park?

Peregrine · 28-06-2021 11:09pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Is the shuttle bus just for staff working at East Point business park?

They don't check IDs or anything but it wouldn't be much use for anyone else.

https://www.eastpoint.ie/Shuttle-Bus-and-Location

devnull · 28-06-2021 11:36pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Is the shuttle bus just for staff working at East Point business park?

Pre pandemic, there would be three shuttle buses operating on the DART Shuttle and two on the LUAS shuttle due to demand.

Anyone can use it.

cgcsb · 29-06-2021 10:07am

densification wrote: »

Howth-Howth Junction probably should be a shuttle but that's gonna be very politically toxic when it happens.

It'll improve punctuality and frequency of other Northern Line services, but rich people in Howth will lose their direct trains to town and have to get off and change at Howth Junction.

I'd want to see some stations improvements at HJ. Its design and clientele aren't the most pleasant. Definitely in the top 3 dodgiest stations on the Dart.

They don't use the DART, they use the land rover

lucernarian · 29-06-2021 10:33am

bk wrote: »

It is a 10 minute walk and a pleasant one at that to the Business Park. On a wet day, it is nicer to just jump in the shuttle bus, but if it wasn't there, it would still be within easy walking distance.

A 10 minute walk is considered completely normal for a rail station.

It is exactly a 10 minute walk, 800m's from the entrance to the DART station to East Wall Road. Sure, they are plenty of parts of East Wall further away then that. But then if you moved the station, you would also move it much further away from the people of Clontarf Road/Marino/Fairview who currently have it on it's doorstep. No one who makes this suggestion, seems to be thinking about their reaction to such a move.

I'll give you Croker, that would be handy.

That is really selective there. There is no way in hell you could get to a train expected to arrive in 10 minutes from even the security gate near Alfie Byrne Road. I've only managed to do so while jogging at a fast pace. The station itself takes 1-2 minutes to traverse because of the cheap design. Likewise from the junction of East wall road, which is literally the nearest part of the entirety of East Wall to the station. I live in the area too, what you're saying sounds a bit specious. Someone walking from Fairview Church or the Tesco in Fairview, or in some cases Marino itself, would get to a station quicker with a western entrance to the station located close to east wall road. There is no way that I'd call Clontarf Road "on my doorstep" even if I can literally see the train line from where I type this.

And describing walking along the Alfie Byrne Road, and the side passage for the shuttle bus (where cycling is banned, and is infested with rats) as "pleasant" is frankly disingenuous.

lucernarian · 29-06-2021 10:45am

As for the reality of the situation, Clontarf Road itself is cocooned from the west, where the access road to Fairview depot is along with the gym/fitness centre. No easy way to remedy that based on its current location. If Eastpoint Business park is responsible for the majority of trips to and from there, and its location is clearly suboptimal even for that purpose, you'd have to question its primary utility when the various bus routes operating nearby will serve people far more conveniently to most destinations accessible by the DART in the first place. Even an access close to the bridge crossing of Howth Road would be far better for the trip generators around Fairview and Marino than the current station layout is.

loyatemu · 29-06-2021 10:53am

when I worked in Eastpoint what really annoyed me was having to get off the Dart, walk the length of the platform, over the bridge, then walk back the way I'd come to get to Eastpoint. A simple improvement would be to have access and a bridge at the southern end of the platforms.

lucernarian · 29-06-2021 11:02am

loyatemu wrote: »

when I worked in Eastpoint what really annoyed me was having to get off the Dart, walk the length of the platform, over the bridge, then walk back the way I'd come to get to Eastpoint. A simple improvement would be to have access and a bridge at the southern end of the platforms.

That would also double the passenger capacity at peak times, which is currently bottlenecked by the narrow staircase for both platforms, right beside the turnstiles. Hopefully Irish Rail have fixed the regular ponding that used to happen there because of inadequate drainage.

AngryLips · 29-06-2021 11:51am

lucernarian wrote: »

As for the reality of the situation, Clontarf Road itself is cocooned from the west, where the access road to Fairview depot is along with the gym/fitness centre. No easy way to remedy that based on its current location. If Eastpoint Business park is responsible for the majority of trips to and from there, and its location is clearly suboptimal even for that purpose, you'd have to question its primary utility when the various bus routes operating nearby will serve people far more conveniently to most destinations accessible by the DART in the first place. Even an access close to the bridge crossing of Howth Road would be far better for the trip generators around Fairview and Marino than the current station layout is.

You're right, there's really no point to having a station there at all.

Pete_Cavan · 29-06-2021 12:42pm

I doubt Clontarf Road station can be moved south because of the depot and then the junctions south of that again. The location of the station isn't that big an issue, the layout and design of the station is and that is what needs to be addressed.

lucernarian · 29-06-2021 1:23pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I doubt Clontarf Road station can be moved south because of the depot and then the junctions south of that again. The location of the station isn't that big an issue, the layout and design of the station is and that is what needs to be addressed.

Yeah I'm torn on that point. The current station is the least optimal location for anything except effectively a small park-n-ride station. But is it worth the cost to dramatically re-engineer the whole station or open 2 new stations?

A subterranean passage to the northbound platform plus access to the Fairview side would dramatically improve things (like at the southern end of the platform).

I also have it on good authority that the current station was a planning permission condition of Eastpoint Business Park and the architectural/surveying work was financed directly by the Eastpoint developer. Cost was the sole concern.

LXFlyer · 29-06-2021 1:48pm

Clontarf Road Station should get a usage boost from next year, when the new orbital bus routes, N2 and N4, will serve the station at frequencies of up to every 15 minutes and every 10 minutes respectively.

lucernarian · 29-06-2021 1:55pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Clontarf Road Station should get a usage boost from next year, when the new orbital bus routes, N2 and N4, will serve the station at frequencies of up to every 15 minutes and every 10 minutes respectively.

It doesn't need a usage boost... In 2019 the station was at crush capacity at peak times (both embarking and disembarking). The peaky nature of the shuttle bus traffic was bad enough, mixed in with people *starting* their commute because they park there or live nearby. A single <2 metre wide staircase governs all access to and from the platforms. How is this a good thing?

Pete_Cavan · 29-06-2021 2:52pm

How important are the sidings between Clontarf Road station and Westwood? It would be a big improvement if access to the northbound platform could be provided on the Westwood. To do so the depot access road would have to shift closer to the Westwood entrance and the red brick building demolished (I have an idea what it is but I see a DCC logo on it and assume its something that can be relocated). Also, having drivers change at the station would be great.

AngryLips · 29-06-2021 3:42pm

lucernarian wrote: »

It doesn't need a usage boost

It needs more passive surveillance so that you don't feel like you're about to get mugged or raped just walking to reach it

LXFlyer · 29-06-2021 5:48pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

How important are the sidings between Clontarf Road station and Westwood? It would be a big improvement if access to the northbound platform could be provided on the Westwood. To do so the depot access road would have to shift closer to the Westwood entrance and the red brick building demolished (I have an idea what it is but I see a DCC logo on it and assume its something that can be relocated). Also, having drivers change at the station would be great.

The three lines between Clontarf Road station and Westwood are pretty much essential.

One line is the only method of accessing one of the depot roads, the second allows trains switch between the wash and the depot, while the third is the main access to/from the north to the depot.

densification · 29-06-2021 7:06pm

lucernarian wrote: »

It doesn't need a usage boost... In 2019 the station was at crush capacity at peak times (both embarking and disembarking). The peaky nature of the shuttle bus traffic was bad enough, mixed in with people *starting* their commute because they park there or live nearby. A single <2 metre wide staircase governs all access to and from the platforms. How is this a good thing?

There are much busier stations (in Ireland and elsewhere).

The stations needs at least one other entrance but preferably two. If these are well designed, the station will never be at crush capacity, even at peak.

lucernarian · 29-06-2021 11:02pm

densification wrote: »

There are much busier stations (in Ireland and elsewhere).

The stations needs at least one other entrance but preferably two. If these are well designed, the station will never be at crush capacity, even at peak.

You're ignoring the usage pattern of this station if you're trying to downplay the issue of the single staircase for both platforms. At 8:30 am there are dozens of people running down the less than 2 metre wide usable staircase to get to the soon to depart shuttle bus, while you've got quite a few people looking to commute elsewhere on the same train the other group just got off, fighting their way up the same staircase. At times it's felt dangerous to me.

At least you agree it needs another method of accessing the platform(s).

lucernarian · 29-06-2021 11:03pm

AngryLips wrote: »

It needs more passive surveillance so that you don't feel like you're about to get mugged or raped just walking to reach it

That makes sense. I'm still shocked that bk described the walk as pleasant

densification · 29-06-2021 11:10pm

lucernarian wrote: »

You're ignoring the usage pattern of this station if you're trying to downplay the issue of the single staircase for both platforms. At 8:30 am there are dozens of people running down the less than 2 metre wide usable staircase to get to the soon to depart shuttle bus, while you've got quite a few people looking to commute elsewhere on the same train the other group just got off, fighting their way up the same staircase. At times it's felt dangerous to me.

At least you agree it needs another method of accessing the platform(s).

Pretty much all commuter rail in Ireland and the UK is aggressively peaked. Can’t speak for elsewhere. I’ve been on the central line on the underground at 8am (32 tph) where nearly everyone gets off at a few stops in the city. It’s not comfortable but it works.

There’s no reason why a well designed station can’t handle a hundred or so people getting off a train at once.

I think we can both agree that the station was cheaply built to a low standard by people who didn’t have a great understanding of passenger flows, permeability etc.

The passenger volumes are not the problem; the crappy design is.

lucernarian · 29-06-2021 11:31pm

densification wrote: »

Pretty much all commuter rail in Ireland and the UK is aggressively peaked. Can’t speak for elsewhere. I’ve been on the central line on the underground at 8am (32 tph) where nearly everyone gets off at a few stops in the city. It’s not comfortable but it works.

There’s no reason why a well designed station can’t handle a hundred or so people getting off a train at once.

I think we can both agree that the station was cheaply built to a low standard by people who didn’t have a great understanding of passenger flows, permeability etc.

The passenger volumes are not the problem; the crappy design is.

Yes, I'd just not encourage even more use at the station when it's already dangerously crowded due to unique factors at peak times, like being able to see the bus you need about to depart outside right from where you get out of the train, and two rows of people merge to one (causing a jam up and down two staircases). It's a nightmare waiting to happen.

A conversation about all this might need its own thread even, I'll try not to divert it from here on

densification · 29-06-2021 11:45pm

lucernarian wrote: »

Yes, I'd just not encourage even more use at the station when it's already dangerously crowded due to unique factors at peak times, like being able to see the bus you need about to depart outside right from where you get out of the train, and two rows of people merge to one (causing a jam up and down two staircases). It's a nightmare waiting to happen.

A conversation about all this might need its own thread even, I'll try not to divert it from here on

Jaysus you’re going on like it’s Shinjuku station in Tokyo

. It has barely over 2000 boardings per day. It’s not even in the top 10 busiest Dart stations.

Tara street only has one staircase Most of the time. There’s only one way to get to platforms 7&6 at Connolly. It’s a bit of a squash but it’s grand.

East Point can invest in a few new (electric) buses if they’re overcrowded.

lucernarian · 30-06-2021 12:57pm

densification wrote: »

Jaysus you’re going on like it’s Shinjuku station in Tokyo . It has barely over 2000 boardings per day. It’s not even in the top 10 busiest Dart stations.

Tara street only has one staircase Most of the time. There’s only one way to get to platforms 7&6 at Connolly. It’s a bit of a squash but it’s grand.

East Point can invest in a few new (electric) buses if they’re overcrowded.

Tara street has independent entrances of access and separate escalators per platform also. Completely incomparable.

P6/7 at Connolly is served by a very wide 3+ metre corridor that can allow for people to move "randomly" without disturbing continuous flow in both directions.

It's only at Clontarf Road where I've seen the traffic jam of passengers on staircases combined with bidirectional flows of passengers at the peak of flow for both directions.

I feel obligated to point this single narrow staircase out as a clear safety issue, as the bottleneck is the stairs itself and not e.g turnstile gates / leap card terminals on a level surface for people to queue up on.

Until you've actually seen the pushing of people while they wait to get out, I wouldn't dismiss it so casually.

cgcsb · 21-07-2021 3:29pm

Bicycle on DART.

In the excitement of DART+, and all the fanfare that goes with I sort of assumed that they'd bring in the Copenhagen S-Tog practice of having a special carriage at the end of all trains on all S-Tog lines (5 radial and 1 circular) that are for bicycle storage. I mean if you're going to completely overhall a city's antiquated commuter rail systems at a cost greater than €2bn, then that's what you'd do right?......RIGHT??

But actually I can't find anything on this in the DART+ literature. Has anyone who's been to the information meetings heard anything about this? seems a massive oversight. They'd hardly not make provisions for bikes in this day and age, surely?

Ireland trains · 22-07-2021 10:39pm

Modern railways is reporting in their August issue that Iarnrod Eireann has informed Alstom that it is the preferred manufacturer for the new DART fleet which they're saying will be 5 and 10 car sets with up to 750 coaches.

It is also reported that IE has received permission to explore options for a new enterprise fleet.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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