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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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  • AngryLips wrote: »
    Well I imagine there would be many benefits to better connecting Dart to East Wall besides getting people into the city centre.


    Frankly, Clontarf Road is so disconnected from its surroundings as to be practically useless, and if Istanbul can build a transit station here then I don't understand why we can make Clontarf Road a bit more convenient to its surrounding neighbourhoods. The location of the station makes it feel unsavory and remote, sell the land for some apartments and use it to fund a better transit hub I say.

    halic-metro-transport-villes-durables-istanbul-turquie.jpg?itok=l1RZ8k_C

    I think you're being a bit harsh on Clontarf Road. It's definitely not a well thought out station but it's still used by over 2000 people per day. Malahide, Killester and Raheny are the only stations on the Northern Dart that are busier.

    It's certainly not well integrated into its surroundings, but that can change with a bit of money.

    The Dart does not offer good penetration into the city centre (unlike Dublin Bus which does). People from Drumcondra don't really use the station, they get the bus as it goes to way more places at a much higher frequency.




  • donvito99 wrote: »
    The station is there and you may as well let it operate just as any other station. There are lots of people continuing past Tara and Pearse to Grand Canal Dock and Lansdowne Road. Fairview, Marino and the bits of Clontarf in proximity to the station are as far from the city as Lansdown Road, so I don't know why you'd distinguish it?

    Of course and I was thinking the same. While it is far from ideal, there are many people who live just across the road from it and close by in Fairview, Marino, etc. who do use it for such trips. And if you were to move it to East Wall, you'd be moving it away from them.

    I'm not sure East Wall would have all that much higher catchment.
    The Dart does not offer good penetration into the city centre (unlike Dublin Bus which does). People from Drumcondra don't really use the station, they get the bus as it goes to way more places at a much higher frequency.

    Yep, because they are different type of services. At this close to the city, Bus and Tram makes more sense as it is more frequent and has more convenient stops.

    DART is a more longer distance commuter service, of course you will use it if going somewhere other then the city, but I can't see moving it making sense.




  • bk wrote: »
    LOL, I knew someone would say that.

    You know perfectly well that the vast majority of trips are into the city center. Other trip generators wouldn't break single digits and you want to spend millions to move a station for that! It isn't like people in East Wall aren't willing to walk 10 minutes if they were heading to Howth, etc.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't improve the accessibility of the existing station, but moving it doesn't make sense.
    I don't know where you're coming from on this - the fact it requires a free shuttle bus to be viable as a station is more a damning indictment of it than it is of its "success".

    It's far more than 10 minutes walk to get to Clontarf road from almost any part of East Wall unless you're extremely selective about it. And a station more accessible to east wall would also be within 15 minute's range of croke Park, almost as close as Drumcondra is already.




  • I don't know where you're coming from on this - the fact it requires a free shuttle bus to be viable as a station is more a damning indictment of it than it is of its "success".

    It is a 10 minute walk and a pleasant one at that to the Business Park. On a wet day, it is nicer to just jump in the shuttle bus, but if it wasn't there, it would still be within easy walking distance.

    A 10 minute walk is considered completely normal for a rail station.
    It's far more than 10 minutes walk to get to Clontarf road from almost any part of East Wall unless you're extremely selective about it. And a station more accessible to east wall would also be within 15 minute's range of croke Park, almost as close as Drumcondra is already.

    It is exactly a 10 minute walk, 800m's from the entrance to the DART station to East Wall Road. Sure, they are plenty of parts of East Wall further away then that. But then if you moved the station, you would also move it much further away from the people of Clontarf Road/Marino/Fairview who currently have it on it's doorstep. No one who makes this suggestion, seems to be thinking about their reaction to such a move.

    I'll give you Croker, that would be handy.




  • Ye, that's a good point. It's not a very heavily used stop. Some more passive surveillance wouldn't hurt. I think it has Irish Rail security there full time now and Gardaí assisting ticket inspectors at weekends.

    Passive surveillance is the only long term solution to such black spots. And it almost always works.


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  • Is the shuttle bus just for staff working at East Point business park?




  • AngryLips wrote: »
    Is the shuttle bus just for staff working at East Point business park?

    They don't check IDs or anything but it wouldn't be much use for anyone else.

    https://www.eastpoint.ie/Shuttle-Bus-and-Location




  • AngryLips wrote: »
    Is the shuttle bus just for staff working at East Point business park?

    Pre pandemic, there would be three shuttle buses operating on the DART Shuttle and two on the LUAS shuttle due to demand.

    Anyone can use it.






  • Howth-Howth Junction probably should be a shuttle but that's gonna be very politically toxic when it happens.

    It'll improve punctuality and frequency of other Northern Line services, but rich people in Howth will lose their direct trains to town and have to get off and change at Howth Junction.

    I'd want to see some stations improvements at HJ. Its design and clientele aren't the most pleasant. Definitely in the top 3 dodgiest stations on the Dart.

    They don't use the DART, they use the land rover




  • bk wrote: »
    It is a 10 minute walk and a pleasant one at that to the Business Park. On a wet day, it is nicer to just jump in the shuttle bus, but if it wasn't there, it would still be within easy walking distance.

    A 10 minute walk is considered completely normal for a rail station.



    It is exactly a 10 minute walk, 800m's from the entrance to the DART station to East Wall Road. Sure, they are plenty of parts of East Wall further away then that. But then if you moved the station, you would also move it much further away from the people of Clontarf Road/Marino/Fairview who currently have it on it's doorstep. No one who makes this suggestion, seems to be thinking about their reaction to such a move.

    I'll give you Croker, that would be handy.
    That is really selective there. There is no way in hell you could get to a train expected to arrive in 10 minutes from even the security gate near Alfie Byrne Road. I've only managed to do so while jogging at a fast pace. The station itself takes 1-2 minutes to traverse because of the cheap design. Likewise from the junction of East wall road, which is literally the nearest part of the entirety of East Wall to the station. I live in the area too, what you're saying sounds a bit specious. Someone walking from Fairview Church or the Tesco in Fairview, or in some cases Marino itself, would get to a station quicker with a western entrance to the station located close to east wall road. There is no way that I'd call Clontarf Road "on my doorstep" even if I can literally see the train line from where I type this.

    And describing walking along the Alfie Byrne Road, and the side passage for the shuttle bus (where cycling is banned, and is infested with rats) as "pleasant" is frankly disingenuous.


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  • As for the reality of the situation, Clontarf Road itself is cocooned from the west, where the access road to Fairview depot is along with the gym/fitness centre. No easy way to remedy that based on its current location. If Eastpoint Business park is responsible for the majority of trips to and from there, and its location is clearly suboptimal even for that purpose, you'd have to question its primary utility when the various bus routes operating nearby will serve people far more conveniently to most destinations accessible by the DART in the first place. Even an access close to the bridge crossing of Howth Road would be far better for the trip generators around Fairview and Marino than the current station layout is.




  • when I worked in Eastpoint what really annoyed me was having to get off the Dart, walk the length of the platform, over the bridge, then walk back the way I'd come to get to Eastpoint. A simple improvement would be to have access and a bridge at the southern end of the platforms.




  • loyatemu wrote: »
    when I worked in Eastpoint what really annoyed me was having to get off the Dart, walk the length of the platform, over the bridge, then walk back the way I'd come to get to Eastpoint. A simple improvement would be to have access and a bridge at the southern end of the platforms.
    That would also double the passenger capacity at peak times, which is currently bottlenecked by the narrow staircase for both platforms, right beside the turnstiles. Hopefully Irish Rail have fixed the regular ponding that used to happen there because of inadequate drainage.




  • As for the reality of the situation, Clontarf Road itself is cocooned from the west, where the access road to Fairview depot is along with the gym/fitness centre. No easy way to remedy that based on its current location. If Eastpoint Business park is responsible for the majority of trips to and from there, and its location is clearly suboptimal even for that purpose, you'd have to question its primary utility when the various bus routes operating nearby will serve people far more conveniently to most destinations accessible by the DART in the first place. Even an access close to the bridge crossing of Howth Road would be far better for the trip generators around Fairview and Marino than the current station layout is.


    You're right, there's really no point to having a station there at all.




  • I doubt Clontarf Road station can be moved south because of the depot and then the junctions south of that again. The location of the station isn't that big an issue, the layout and design of the station is and that is what needs to be addressed.




  • Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I doubt Clontarf Road station can be moved south because of the depot and then the junctions south of that again. The location of the station isn't that big an issue, the layout and design of the station is and that is what needs to be addressed.

    Yeah I'm torn on that point. The current station is the least optimal location for anything except effectively a small park-n-ride station. But is it worth the cost to dramatically re-engineer the whole station or open 2 new stations?

    A subterranean passage to the northbound platform plus access to the Fairview side would dramatically improve things (like at the southern end of the platform).

    I also have it on good authority that the current station was a planning permission condition of Eastpoint Business Park and the architectural/surveying work was financed directly by the Eastpoint developer. Cost was the sole concern.




  • Clontarf Road Station should get a usage boost from next year, when the new orbital bus routes, N2 and N4, will serve the station at frequencies of up to every 15 minutes and every 10 minutes respectively.




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    Clontarf Road Station should get a usage boost from next year, when the new orbital bus routes, N2 and N4, will serve the station at frequencies of up to every 15 minutes and every 10 minutes respectively.
    It doesn't need a usage boost... In 2019 the station was at crush capacity at peak times (both embarking and disembarking). The peaky nature of the shuttle bus traffic was bad enough, mixed in with people *starting* their commute because they park there or live nearby. A single <2 metre wide staircase governs all access to and from the platforms. How is this a good thing?




  • How important are the sidings between Clontarf Road station and Westwood? It would be a big improvement if access to the northbound platform could be provided on the Westwood. To do so the depot access road would have to shift closer to the Westwood entrance and the red brick building demolished (I have an idea what it is but I see a DCC logo on it and assume its something that can be relocated). Also, having drivers change at the station would be great.




  • It doesn't need a usage boost


    It needs more passive surveillance so that you don't feel like you're about to get mugged or raped just walking to reach it


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  • Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    How important are the sidings between Clontarf Road station and Westwood? It would be a big improvement if access to the northbound platform could be provided on the Westwood. To do so the depot access road would have to shift closer to the Westwood entrance and the red brick building demolished (I have an idea what it is but I see a DCC logo on it and assume its something that can be relocated). Also, having drivers change at the station would be great.

    The three lines between Clontarf Road station and Westwood are pretty much essential.

    One line is the only method of accessing one of the depot roads, the second allows trains switch between the wash and the depot, while the third is the main access to/from the north to the depot.




  • It doesn't need a usage boost... In 2019 the station was at crush capacity at peak times (both embarking and disembarking). The peaky nature of the shuttle bus traffic was bad enough, mixed in with people *starting* their commute because they park there or live nearby. A single <2 metre wide staircase governs all access to and from the platforms. How is this a good thing?

    There are much busier stations (in Ireland and elsewhere).

    The stations needs at least one other entrance but preferably two. If these are well designed, the station will never be at crush capacity, even at peak.




  • There are much busier stations (in Ireland and elsewhere).

    The stations needs at least one other entrance but preferably two. If these are well designed, the station will never be at crush capacity, even at peak.
    You're ignoring the usage pattern of this station if you're trying to downplay the issue of the single staircase for both platforms. At 8:30 am there are dozens of people running down the less than 2 metre wide usable staircase to get to the soon to depart shuttle bus, while you've got quite a few people looking to commute elsewhere on the same train the other group just got off, fighting their way up the same staircase. At times it's felt dangerous to me.

    At least you agree it needs another method of accessing the platform(s).




  • AngryLips wrote: »
    It needs more passive surveillance so that you don't feel like you're about to get mugged or raped just walking to reach it
    That makes sense. I'm still shocked that bk described the walk as pleasant :D




  • You're ignoring the usage pattern of this station if you're trying to downplay the issue of the single staircase for both platforms. At 8:30 am there are dozens of people running down the less than 2 metre wide usable staircase to get to the soon to depart shuttle bus, while you've got quite a few people looking to commute elsewhere on the same train the other group just got off, fighting their way up the same staircase. At times it's felt dangerous to me.

    At least you agree it needs another method of accessing the platform(s).

    Pretty much all commuter rail in Ireland and the UK is aggressively peaked. Can’t speak for elsewhere. I’ve been on the central line on the underground at 8am (32 tph) where nearly everyone gets off at a few stops in the city. It’s not comfortable but it works.

    There’s no reason why a well designed station can’t handle a hundred or so people getting off a train at once.

    I think we can both agree that the station was cheaply built to a low standard by people who didn’t have a great understanding of passenger flows, permeability etc.

    The passenger volumes are not the problem; the crappy design is.




  • Pretty much all commuter rail in Ireland and the UK is aggressively peaked. Can’t speak for elsewhere. I’ve been on the central line on the underground at 8am (32 tph) where nearly everyone gets off at a few stops in the city. It’s not comfortable but it works.

    There’s no reason why a well designed station can’t handle a hundred or so people getting off a train at once.

    I think we can both agree that the station was cheaply built to a low standard by people who didn’t have a great understanding of passenger flows, permeability etc.

    The passenger volumes are not the problem; the crappy design is.
    Yes, I'd just not encourage even more use at the station when it's already dangerously crowded due to unique factors at peak times, like being able to see the bus you need about to depart outside right from where you get out of the train, and two rows of people merge to one (causing a jam up and down two staircases). It's a nightmare waiting to happen.

    A conversation about all this might need its own thread even, I'll try not to divert it from here on :)




  • Yes, I'd just not encourage even more use at the station when it's already dangerously crowded due to unique factors at peak times, like being able to see the bus you need about to depart outside right from where you get out of the train, and two rows of people merge to one (causing a jam up and down two staircases). It's a nightmare waiting to happen.

    A conversation about all this might need its own thread even, I'll try not to divert it from here on :)

    Jaysus you’re going on like it’s Shinjuku station in Tokyo :) . It has barely over 2000 boardings per day. It’s not even in the top 10 busiest Dart stations.

    Tara street only has one staircase Most of the time. There’s only one way to get to platforms 7&6 at Connolly. It’s a bit of a squash but it’s grand.

    East Point can invest in a few new (electric) buses if they’re overcrowded.




  • Jaysus you’re going on like it’s Shinjuku station in Tokyo :) . It has barely over 2000 boardings per day. It’s not even in the top 10 busiest Dart stations.

    Tara street only has one staircase Most of the time. There’s only one way to get to platforms 7&6 at Connolly. It’s a bit of a squash but it’s grand.

    East Point can invest in a few new (electric) buses if they’re overcrowded.
    Tara street has independent entrances of access and separate escalators per platform also. Completely incomparable.

    P6/7 at Connolly is served by a very wide 3+ metre corridor that can allow for people to move "randomly" without disturbing continuous flow in both directions.

    It's only at Clontarf Road where I've seen the traffic jam of passengers on staircases combined with bidirectional flows of passengers at the peak of flow for both directions.

    I feel obligated to point this single narrow staircase out as a clear safety issue, as the bottleneck is the stairs itself and not e.g turnstile gates / leap card terminals on a level surface for people to queue up on.

    Until you've actually seen the pushing of people while they wait to get out, I wouldn't dismiss it so casually.




  • Bicycle on DART.

    In the excitement of DART+, and all the fanfare that goes with I sort of assumed that they'd bring in the Copenhagen S-Tog practice of having a special carriage at the end of all trains on all S-Tog lines (5 radial and 1 circular) that are for bicycle storage. I mean if you're going to completely overhall a city's antiquated commuter rail systems at a cost greater than €2bn, then that's what you'd do right?......RIGHT??

    But actually I can't find anything on this in the DART+ literature. Has anyone who's been to the information meetings heard anything about this? seems a massive oversight. They'd hardly not make provisions for bikes in this day and age, surely?



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