Cities around the world that are reducing car access

loyatemu · 23-06-2021 3:21pm

there is some national guidance - DLRCC recently got told to reduce the amount of housing in their plan:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/d%C3%BAn-laoghaire-rathdown-told-to-scale-back-housing-plans-1.4546039

but the guidance changes and a new govt can introduce new targets. Regardless of what controls are in place at national/regional level, once a road is built the temptation to start building housing further out will be irresistible. IDK, maybe the Climate bill will do something to legally oblige councils to assess the climate impact of road projects.

I'm not saying the M20 shouldn't be built, but there's probably a good case to do the absolute minimum to make the route safe & get through traffic out of the intervening towns, and no more. Projects like the N11 and N3 widening schemes, forget it, they're not remotely justifiable.

Thelonious Monk · 23-06-2021 3:26pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Roads may encourage urban sprawl and car dependency but that can only happen if it is allowed to. Sound planning policies will simply not approve low density sprawl. The issue is not the road itself, rather planning policy. With proper planning policies, that isn't a reason for not building an otherwise needed road.

The thing is rural TDs and rural Ireland want one offs and low density sprawl, and they continue to build them, that isn't going to change any time soon.
23.9% of all planning permission given for dwelling units in the first quarter of 2021 were for one off housing. Crazy.

gjim · 23-06-2021 4:37pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Yes, but you do not need to have a central planning authority, but some would say An Bord Pleanála is already that.

However a regionalised planning board could be broader in the application of local planning, particularly wrt housing.

The current arrangement of local authorities is just too small to make broad planning decisions. Galway City Council, Galway County Council, and Clare County Council are all small planning bodies that need to be talking to each other. The same applies to Limerick, and most other local authorities.

There needs to be vigilance. Local politics is just too local.

I think we agree then? I.e. that the current planning system will not work to protect the country from a by-pass (for example) being used as mechanism to open up land for inappropriate development.

The reform required to fix it is going to effectively impossible - whether increasing the size of the planning bodies (it took decades to fix the Limerick city/county split, for example, even though it so obviously the correct thing to do) or taking away planning authority from the LAs (ABP is not a centralised planning authority and is not set up to be one - 99% of planning decisions never get to ABP). Neither the public nor any politicians are going to go for solutions like this.

The easiest thing is to err on the side of caution and avoid building commuter motorways around cities. Sure Cork, Limerick and Dublin have motorways that look a bit like this but they are fundamentally different I would argue as in these cases the motorways connect major pieces of national infrastructure or constitute segments of a larger motorway network that connects significant population centres. Galway's bypass doesn't fit these criteria so I don't think is should be built.

Sam Russell · 23-06-2021 4:44pm

I agree that planning as exercised in todays Ireland is not stopping one off houses.

I do not want to get into the Galway Bypass as it has its own thread.

Thelonious Monk · 23-06-2021 4:54pm

If you had to put money on it you'd have to say the Galway ring road will happen sooner or later, I would anyway, populism and the love of one offs and cars in that area will win out. And then we're just making the whole situation worse with more sprawl and isolated housing.

Pete_Cavan · 23-06-2021 7:29pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The thing is rural TDs and rural Ireland want one offs and low density sprawl, and they continue to build them, that isn't going to change any time soon.
23.9% of all planning permission given for dwelling units in the first quarter of 2021 were for one off housing. Crazy.

That could be a meaningless statistic depending on the definition of a one off house. Individual houses built on infill sites in urban areas or knocking an old house to build a new one would likely fall under the definition. There is a big push to build houses on corner sites or large gardens in existing estates in Dublin as these are very valuable now given the shortage of houses. My house is in a 1960s estate in Dublin and there are several modern houses plus more where the owner applied for planning for a new house on their large garden before they sell the site.

The other thing is the percentage of planning applications for single houses as a percentage of total applications doesn't really tell you much. That 23.9% of applications might only represent little more than 100 units (as each is only for one unit), while the other 76.1% could represent tens of thousands of units (as each is for anything between 2 and 500+ units). That stat is more likely to reflect a very low proportion of low density rural houses than it initially appears.

Seth Brundle · 24-06-2021 10:25am

https://twitter.com/urbanthoughts11/status/1407595494239580161

Sam Russell · 24-06-2021 10:54am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

https://twitter.com/urbanthoughts11/status/1407595494239580161

Add to that that each cardboard box costs the owner €30,000 up to €100,000 plus Motor tax, insurance, NCT, plus maintenance, and is left on the side of the road or in front of one's home for the vast majority of the time, and that €30,000 plus gently but rapidly descends to no value after a decade of ownership. Add to that, one has to find a place to park it in the city and that can be difficult to find and can be very expensive. Who thought that owning a car was a good idea? Owning an aircraft has not caught on in the same way at all.

Only yachts in marinas are more expensive and less used in modern life. Who wants a yacht - oh, how I do not! (Cole Porter - Who wants to be a millionaire).

p_haugh · 24-06-2021 11:48am

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1408011725727752192?s=19

Thelonious Monk · 24-06-2021 3:17pm

https://twitter.com/Kerrys_Eye/status/1407783143294242818

I found this amusing. We all know they'll never vote for TDs wanting car restrictions and walking/cycling infrastructure so it's just going to keep getting worse and worse. I was in Killarney last year and it feels like a sprawling housing estate along all the roads out of it, I don't know why they allow this to happen so that 2 cars per household is a requirement.

magicbastarder · 25-06-2021 2:24pm

this just highlights the farce in london where you can legally hire an e-scooter, but you cannot use your own.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-57609088

donvito99 · 25-06-2021 5:12pm

I have seen two DB drivers in a week using electric scooters on their way home from/to the depot. Slowish progress in the grand scheme of things but so quick over a couple of kilometres.

That's as sure a sign as any that these yokes are the future. Slapping a whole pile of regs on these things is a joke.

magicbastarder · 25-06-2021 6:16pm

yeah, have seen lads on fiidos too heading to or from the harristown depot.

Sam Russell · 25-06-2021 6:20pm

I think electric scooters will be a complete game changer for commuting. For short distances up to 3 km, they are very quick. For longer commutes, drive to within 5 or so, then electric scooter from the boot and away you go.

Electric cars not so much as they will get stuck in traffic.

tDw6u1bj · 25-06-2021 8:21pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Electric cars not so much as they will get stuck in traffic.

I expect they'll cause a huge change in air-quality and noise levels.

Other than that though...

donvito99 · 25-06-2021 8:23pm

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

I expect they'll cause a huge change in air-quality and noise levels.

Other than that though...

HyPErLOoP

tDw6u1bj · 25-06-2021 8:27pm

donvito99 wrote: »

HyPErLOoP

One of those things where the more you read about it the worse it gets.

donvito99 · 25-06-2021 8:28pm

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

One of those things where the more you read about it the worse it gets.

I'd take Denis Naughton's "let electric cars fill up the bus lanes" idea over hyperloop any day of the week.

magicbastarder · 25-06-2021 8:48pm

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

I expect they'll cause a huge change in ... noise levels.

only in slow moving traffic though; AFAIK most car noise at speed comes from the tyres.

tDw6u1bj · 25-06-2021 8:58pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

only in slow moving traffic though; AFAIK most car noise at speed comes from the tyres.

Rolling and air resistance definitely significant.

Just think of how much noise revving a car in the driveway makes. Take that out of the mix, it makes a big difference and I'll take that.

Thelonious Monk · 25-06-2021 10:31pm

The general hum and noise of a city seems to be more tyre traction on the road though. During lockdown no 1 it was deadly silent at night, now I can just hear the traffic hum from all over the city. They're quieter alright but still noisy.

26-06-2021 1:53am

P = passenger car, H = HGV

Prop = propulsion (engine) noise and Roll = tyre (rolling resistance) noise.

Thelonious Monk · 28-06-2021 7:26pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/legal-challenge-taken-over-decision-to-pedestrianise-malahide-street-1.4605927?mode=amp

And the Sandymount cycle lane up in the courts the last few days. I'm starting to think it's all hopeless.

29-06-2021 6:01pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

this just highlights the farce in london where you can legally hire an e-scooter, but you cannot use your own.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-57609088

Seems that if it has lights then it's less likely to be confiscated.

McGrath5 · 02-07-2021 10:51am

Cities themselves aren't noisy, only car infested ones are.

02-07-2021 4:42pm

If you like that youtube channel (and you should), check out https://www.youtube.com/c/CityBeautiful too

p_haugh · 02-07-2021 6:40pm

https://www.dlrcoco.ie/en/road-schemes/summer-streets

Dun Laoghaire pedestrian trial will be starting on Monday, will be interesting to see how well it does.

Thelonious Monk · 03-07-2021 1:03pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1411075252864565252

So Ivana and other politicians want footpath parking to be made legal ffs

magicbastarder · 05-07-2021 10:08am

the vaccination centre in the helix in DCU is moving to the national show centre out beside the airport in a week or two. i know DCU wanted their campus back, but the NSC is a *poor* substitute in terms of access.
the helix is walkable for thousands of people, the NCS is walkable for very few; and to get to the NCS on a bike you've to cycle one of the worst cycle lanes in dublin, unless you're confident enough to take the bus lane.
the helix is also accessible on about ten bus routes (4, 9, 11, 13, 44, 104, 126, 220, 155), at least three of which terminate literally outside. and there are more easily walkable bus routes - the 1 and 17A spring to mind.
the NSC is served by the 33, 41 and 102, i think.

MJohnston · 05-07-2021 10:11am

Classic Official Ireland "shure everyone can take a car there" bollocks

05-07-2021 10:16am

Deleted User wrote: »

P = passenger car, H = HGV

Prop = propulsion (engine) noise and Roll = tyre (rolling resistance) noise.

Where does my electric car with no engine noise and low rolling resistence fit in? It doesn't however you know when the electric train is rolling through the valley because it makes a lot of noise.
The biggest source of noise pollution are the recreational high powered motorbikes all weekend and in before Corona the Disco party boat on a Saturday night.

MJohnston · 05-07-2021 10:26am

Deleted User wrote: »

Where does my electric car with no engine noise and low rolling resistence fit in? It doesn't however you know when the electric train is rolling through the valley because it makes a lot of noise.
The biggest source of noise pollution are the recreational high powered motorbikes all weekend and in before Corona the Disco party boat on a Saturday night.

Individual vehicles with loud engines might increase the average, but in a big city like Dublin, the overall noise pollution will be largely caused by tire noise at 50km/h or above, where there's basically zero difference between an EV and ICE cars. When you "hear" the M50 from a couple of km away, you're not hearing engines, you're generally hearing the voluminous white noise of tires.

05-07-2021 10:36am

MJohnston wrote: »

Individual vehicles with loud engines might increase the average, but in a big city like Dublin, the overall noise pollution will be largely caused by tire noise at 50km/h or above, where there's basically zero difference between an EV and ICE cars. When you "hear" the M50 from a couple of km away, you're not hearing engines, you're generally hearing the voluminous white noise of tires.

I'm not paying for expensive low rolling resistence tyres to have the same noise and fuel efficiency as normal stream roller tyres. Above 30kmph the noise may be appreciable but it would be nowhere near the noise of conventional tires.

MJohnston · 05-07-2021 10:38am

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not paying for expensive low rolling resistence tyres to have the same noise and fuel efficiency as normal stream roller tyres. Above 30kmph the noise may be appreciable but it would be nowhere near the noise of conventional tires.

You're paying for expensive low-rolling resistance tyres because your car is much much heavier than a comparable ICE car, and because low-rolling resistance tyres help improve range. I have an i3 with the moped tyres, I know very well that it makes just as much noise above gridlock speeds as a regular car.

MJohnston · 05-07-2021 10:41am

Don't take my word for it though:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Noise-level-comparison-between-EV-and-ICE-vehicles-at-various-speeds-Sandberg-et-al_fig7_288270778

pleasant Co. · 05-07-2021 10:41am

MJohnston wrote: »

Individual vehicles with loud engines might increase the average, but in a big city like Dublin, the overall noise pollution will be largely caused by tire noise at 50km/h or above, where there's basically zero difference between an EV and ICE cars. When you "hear" the M50 from a couple of km away, you're not hearing engines, you're generally hearing the voluminous white noise of tires.

True, even directly outside of my home there's a very busy road but apart from bus engines, HGV engines and the very few obnoxious noisy engined cars (one of my elder neighbours has a V8 powered beast) all I can hear is tire roll as they zoom by at 50km/h + (the + is for the very important people who have to travel over the limit to get to the next traffic light)

MJohnston · 05-07-2021 10:42am

pleasant Co. wrote: »

True, even directly outside of my home there's a very busy road but apart from bus engines, HGV engines and the very few obnoxious noisy engined cars (one of my elder neighbours has a V8 powered beast) all I can hear is tire roll as they zoom by at 50km/h + (the + is for the very important people who have to travel over the limit to get to the next traffic light)

Yeah, same, we're even on a major bus route too, and unless there's a bit of a traffic jam on the road beside us, you can't tell the difference in noise level from a passing car or bus or truck.

05-07-2021 10:49am

MJohnston wrote: »

You're paying for expensive low-rolling resistance tyres because your car is much much heavier than a comparable ICE car, and because low-rolling resistance tyres help improve range. I have an i3 with the moped tyres, I know very well that it makes just as much noise above gridlock speeds as a regular car.

No it doesn't. By law the noise level of the tyre must be published. My tyres are 4dB quieter than conventional tyres of the same size. 4dB on a logarithmic scale is a huge difference.

05-07-2021 10:53am

In general people only know my car is there because of the mandatory acoustic vehicle alerting system which I can't switch off. I could and did switch it off on my last EV to go in to Ninja mode.

MJohnston · 05-07-2021 10:59am

Deleted User wrote: »

No it doesn't. By law the noise level of the tyre must be published. My tyres are 4dB quieter than conventional tyres of the same size. 4dB on a logarithmic scale is a huge difference.

Sorry, but that makes no sense on a few levels.

1. You may have a singularly quiet car — good for you, but it doesn't mean that the average noise created by an average EV at speed is any different from that generated by the average ICE. See the research above for more on that.
2. Tyres have decibel ratings, as required by EU law, but there's so much this rating doesn't take into account. Weight of the vehicle will effect tyre noise, as will the road surface, as will driving style.

MJohnston · 05-07-2021 11:03am

Deleted User wrote: »

In general people only know my car is there because of the mandatory acoustic vehicle alerting system which I can't switch off. I could and did switch it off on my last EV to go in to Ninja mode.

Yeah but you're obviously talking here about low neighbourhood speeds because AVAS is not required above 20kph. There's a reason it's not required above that speed!

magicbastarder · 05-07-2021 11:06am

Deleted User wrote: »

4dB on a logarithmic scale is a huge difference.

10dB roughly translates to a perceived doubling or halving of volume. so your 4dB is *not* a huge difference. it's a difference of about 1.3x as far as i can see.

05-07-2021 11:08am

MJohnston wrote: »

Sorry, but that makes no sense on a few levels.

1. You may have a singularly quiet car — good for you, but it doesn't mean that the average noise created by an average EV at speed is any different from that generated by the average ICE. See the research above for more on that.
2. Tyres have decibel ratings, as required by EU law, but there's so much this rating doesn't take into account. Weight of the vehicle will effect tyre noise, as will the road surface, as will driving style.

You are clutching a graph you found on the internet like it is the antidote to any contrary fact based view others may present. The E.U. forces manufacturers to produce noise emmission figures for tyres since many years so that Consumers can make informed choices regarding efficiency, wet weather performance and noise emmissions and all you can say is "Pah, I've got my graphs that says something else".
I don't have a particularly quiet EV. Many of the manufacturers are using this particular supplier as their preferred supplier of tyres for their EV cars.

I can well understand why your driving style may produce more noise in an i3. I have never driven a car before or since where the choice of tyre profile was so detrimental to the natural handling characteristics of the car...every sharp corner taken at anything above a steady trot provoked 4 wheel slide due to lack of surface area contact with the road surface.

05-07-2021 11:12am

magicbastarder wrote: »

10dB roughly translates to a perceived doubling or halving of volume. so your 4dB is *not* a huge difference. it's a difference of about 1.3x as far as i can see.

4dB is the difference in going from normal coversation volume level to the persistent drone of a loud diswasher. It is a huge difference.

05-07-2021 11:17am

MJohnston wrote: »

Yeah but you're obviously talking here about low neighbourhood speeds because AVAS is not required above 20kph. There's a reason it's not required above that speed!

30kmph. After 20kmph it can gradually reduce due to the cumulative effect of tire noise and the AVAS system.
https://ecomento.de/2021/07/05/neue-elektroautos-muessen-in-der-eu-kuenstliche-geraeusche-erzeugen-avas/
German text.

magicbastarder · 05-07-2021 11:22am

Deleted User wrote: »

4dB is the difference in going from normal coversation volume level to the persistent drone of a loud diswasher. It is a huge difference.

this says 10dB.
and it doesn't specify a 'loud' dishwasher.
https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/hearing_loss/what_noises_cause_hearing_loss.html

4dB is *not* a huge difference, no matter how much you want to claim otherwise.

MJohnston · 05-07-2021 11:25am

Deleted User wrote: »

You are clutching a graph you found on the internet like it is the antidote to any contrary fact based view others may present. The E.U. forces manufacturers to produce noise emmission figures for tyres since many years so that Consumers can make informed choices regarding efficiency, wet weather performance and noise emmissions and all you can say is "Pah, I've got my graphs that says something else".
I don't have a particularly quiet EV. Many of the manufacturers are using this particular supplier as their preferred supplier of tyres for their EV cars.

I'm sorry, but I'm not clutching at anything. There is plenty of research to show that average EV noise above 30kph is not much different to the average ICE. Simple question — do you disagree with that research? If so, why?

I've bolded a bit above that I think reflects how you're thinking too narrowly about this. Again, I'll point out that the characteristics of a tyre are only one part of the overall noise equation. Another simple question — do you disagree with this? If so, why?

05-07-2021 11:28am

magicbastarder wrote: »

this says 10dB.
and it doesn't specify a 'loud' dishwasher.
https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/hearing_loss/what_noises_cause_hearing_loss.html

4dB is *not* a huge difference, no matter how much you want to claim otherwise.

The household items usually used for comparisson are the humming fridge, the drone of a dishwasher and a washing machine on spin cycle which are all at very perceptible different levels of volume beyond that you get in to the realms of city traffic, lawnmowers, hammer drills, concerts and two stroke chainsaws.

You may not like that someone has educated themselves on the topic and disagrees with you but you just claiming they are lying isn't going to change the fact that they are correct.
This hate-fest on private transport with minimal environmental pollution footprint in terms of noise or hydrocarbon emmissions is just an example of group think.

05-07-2021 11:30am

I'm dropping out of this conversation. You as a group are misinformed, can't be argued with and I've better things to do.

MJohnston · 05-07-2021 11:30am

Deleted User wrote: »

The household items usually used for comparisson are the humming fridge, the drone of a dishwasher and a washing machine on spin cycle which are all at very perceptible different levels of volume beyond that you get in to the realms of city traffic, lawnmowers, hammer drills, concerts and two stroke chainsaws.

You may not like that someone has educated themselves on the topic and disagrees with you but you just claiming they are lying isn't going to change the fact that they are correct.
This hate-fest on private transport with minimal environmental pollution footprint in terms of noise or hydrocarbon emmissions is just an example of group think.

You're talking about the difference between something like 68dB and 71dB as being sufficient to mitigate noise pollution, so I'm not sure you've truly understood the topic at hand tbh

Cities around the world that are reducing car access

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