Cities around the world that are reducing car access

MJohnston

[Deleted User] wrote: »

... What? You're not selfish enough to commute by car, because bus is the only option?

Contextually it’s obvious I mean the only public transport option. Sadly, driving to work is an option pretty much everywhere in this country.

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't understand that post. My (very valid) argument is that there are people commuting to Dublin city centre from Monaghan. Are you saying that's not true?

Why are you commuting from Monaghan? Can you not move to Dublin, or get a job closer to where you want to live?

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why are you commuting from Monaghan? Can you not move to Dublin, or get a job closer to where you want to live?

You don't understand man!!

magicbastarder

the shortest distance between monaghan county and 'the city centre' (taking this as cross guns bridge in phibs) is 75km.
if you were doing that 220 days a year - 150km a day, you're looking at 33,000km a year. probably about 2.5k in fuel costs? or about two months worth of payments on a 200k mortgage.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

The government can't seem to figure out how to get any decent jobs outside of Dublin.

Well, they did try to decentralise the civil service a decade ago, the plan was halted after severe resistance from some of the staff, they didn't want to be "exiled" to the sticks, their selfishness deprived many of their colleagues the opportunity to work closer to home.

Thelonious Monk

Rural people seem to get confused why Facebook and Google don't want to set up in Donegal or Monaghan. For one, multinationals attract foreign staff, they're not going to want to live in the sticks.
Decentralisation should be possible with remote working now for Gov depts anyway, I would imagine this will help with traffic.

magicbastarder

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, they did try to decentralise the civil service a decade ago, the plan was halted after severe resistance from some of the staff, they didn't want to be "exiled" to the sticks, their selfishness deprived many of their colleagues the opportunity to work closer to home.

but they didn't get to pick where the various departments were allocated, which was basically just doled out as favours to the ministers of the time.

IIRC BIM was placed 150km from the department of the marine or summat. apparently the BIM guys loved that because they absolutely creamed it in on the mileage.

Seth Brundle

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, they did try to decentralise the civil service a decade ago, the plan was halted after severe resistance from some of the staff, they didn't want to be "exiled" to the sticks, their selfishness deprived many of their colleagues the opportunity to work closer to home.

In fairness that decentralisation plan was more to distract from a crappy budget and was extremely poorly thought out that it was always doomed to failure.
A large restructuring plan like that should have been properly thought through and locations chosen for their suitability rather than which FF or PD minister lived there.
I wouldn't blame the civil servants for that particular debacle.

Seth Brundle

Seth Brundle wrote: »

In fairness that decentralisation plan was more to distract from a crappy budget and was extremely poorly thought out that it was always doomed to failure.
A large restructuring plan like that should have been properly thought through and locations chosen for their suitability rather than which FF or PD minister lived there.
I wouldn't blame the civil servants for that particular debacle.

Point taken, a better thought out system would have a more "joined up government" have strategically placed civil service buildings located around the country with multiple departments working within it all linked back to the Dublin HQ and of course allow transfers between departments to create viable hubs in these towns.

gjim

Deleted User wrote: »

A bus ticket, return, from Drogheda to Dublin is €16. It would cost less on Diesel in a car to do that. Hence, I wouldn't be in a panic to look at the bus as a realistic alternative.

That's a nonsensical comparison - the price of the fuel is only a small part of the cost of driving.

You have motorway tolls. Parking in the centre of the city will cost around 25 euro for 8 hours. Then add the costs of financing, insuring and maintaining a car - at least 2 or 3 grand a year. Even the hour and half of dead time spent driving is worth at least 15 euro even if you're working minimum wage. If you're on the average salary, you're talking about double that. The total expense is at least double if not triple the price of the bus ticket.

People don't drive to save money, they drive in spite of the extra expense because they like driving or they drive because there are no or very limited PT options available.

Seth Brundle

gjim wrote: »

People don't drive to save money, they drive in spite of the extra expense because they like driving or they drive because there are no or very limited PT options available.

I did it for a number of years. Combination of liking cars/driving, having to carry stuff, long hours (sometimes 12 hour days) and laziness. I'll admit that it was mainly laziness and I suspect that's the case with most others who did the same commute.

Podge_irl

Tomrota wrote: »

I wasn’t talking about the suburbs, I was referring to commuter towns - the likes of Bray, Naas and Maynooth. They are responsible for thousands upon thousands of cars clogging up the M50 and the city centre every working day. I suggested building park and rides along major corridors such as the M4, N7 and N11 with high quality public transport links to allow people in commuter towns (and those in towns further away) to park there and avoid driving into the city altogether.

I know you are not talking about the suburbs. I'm saying simple economics will never be sufficient to drive people to something like a P&R as evidenced by the fact that there are legions of people who drive in from the suburbs despite other options being readily available when driving is time consuming and expensive.

Seth Brundle

https://twitter.com/BrentToderian/status/1355957861537378307

Tomrota

Podge_irl wrote: »

I know you are not talking about the suburbs. I'm saying simple economics will never be sufficient to drive people to something like a P&R as evidenced by the fact that there are legions of people who drive in from the suburbs despite other options being readily available when driving is time consuming and expensive.

Well we can look at Sallins train station as an example. The fare price dropped there considerably as it entered the Short Hop Zone a few years ago. Passenger numbers doubled, if not tripled, as a result. And now (pre-COVID) the trains are always dangerously over capacity and the car park is well over capacity. Build it, make it a cheaper alternative, and people will use it. Nobody wants to drive from Naas but they had no option. With the introduction of SHZ fares, hundreds/thousands saw it more economical to use public transport. Imagine if this thirst for public transport was actually explored by the government/NTA, and they put 10 minute frequency from Sallins and even lower fares, with a huge park and ride and developed actual public transport links to the train station. I can’t imagine how successful that would be. Nobody, and I mean nobody, wants to use the N7 in the morning but we have had zero options.

MJohnston

Tomrota wrote: »

Well we can look at Sallins train station as an example. The fare price dropped there considerably as it entered the Short Hop Zone a few years ago. Passenger numbers doubled, if not tripled, as a result. And now (pre-COVID) the trains are always dangerously over capacity and the car park is well over capacity. Build it, make it a cheaper alternative, and people will use it. Nobody wants to drive from Naas but they had no option. With the introduction of SHZ fares, hundreds/thousands saw it more economical to use public transport. Imagine if this thirst for public transport was actually explored by the government/NTA, and they put 10 minute frequency from Sallins and even lower fares, with a huge park and ride and developed actual public transport links to the train station. I can’t imagine how successful that would be. Nobody, and I mean nobody, wants to use the N7 in the morning but we have had zero options.

I think Podge's point was that if you look at somewhere like the Rock Road along the South Dublin bay, it's nearly always terribly congested at peak time with cars that are inevitably driving to some home that's close to, or within driving distance of DART stations.

Or people will drive from Dundrum to work in the city. That kind of thing. A lot of people will take the longer and more expensive option of driving even where there are excellent public transport links between home and work.

To put it another way — in general there's a limit to how much you can reduce traffic by providing better public transport* and at some point you simply have to force people out of their cars.

* And of course in Dublin you simply cannot provide better public transport in most areas without reducing traffic.

Thelonious Monk

Yes before lockdown I was working with 2 girls from Artane and the part of Ballyfermot where you could walk to town, who were driving to work just off Baggot St. Simply because they could.

Sam Russell

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yes before lockdown I was working with 2 girls from Artane and the part of Ballyfermot where you could walk to town, who were driving to work just off Baggot St. Simply because they could.

That is dealt with by gradually reducing on street parking - a few spaces a year until they are nearly all gone.

Replace the revenue from parking going to the local councils by a subvention from central government and give the actual revenue to the NTA - just like the farebox. The NTA could also run the clampers.

CatInABox

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is dealt with by gradually reducing on street parking - a few spaces a year until they are nearly all gone.

Replace the revenue from parking going to the local councils by a subvention from central government and give the actual revenue to the NTA - just like the farebox. The NTA could also run the clampers.

As the spaces are reduced, the price of those remaining should also increase, and keep increasing until it reaches a level where most, but not all, of the spaces are full. People seem willing to pay anything, so they should. That'd more than make up for any reduction in revenue.

magicbastarder

i know someone who used to work in the parking permit section in DCC. they'd occasionally get people ringing up demanding a permit be provided for them beside their workplace, and who would be incensed that DCC were taking the line that it's up to them or their employer to sort out their parking.

Sam Russell

CatInABox wrote: »

As the spaces are reduced, the price of those remaining should also increase, and keep increasing until it reaches a level where most, but not all, of the spaces are full. People seem willing to pay anything, so they should. That'd more than make up for any reduction in revenue.

The point of moving actual revenue away from councils is to remove the placing of parking spaces to generate revenue rather than through necessity. Of course, enforcement is also necessary.

There is also the point that delivery drivers need to be incentivised to park legally, and for a very short time. I have seen the use of 'clocks' abroad showing time of arrival and a predetermined time limit for leaving. That needs further thought as to how it might work in Dublin, but it could be a way of easing the problem of deliveries.

riddlinrussell

Sam Russell wrote: »

The point of moving actual revenue away from councils is to remove the placing of parking spaces to generate revenue rather than through necessity. Of course, enforcement is also necessary.

There is also the point that delivery drivers need to be incentivised to park legally, and for a very short time. I have seen the use of 'clocks' abroad showing time of arrival and a predetermined time limit for leaving. That needs further thought as to how it might work in Dublin, but it could be a way of easing the problem of deliveries.

I think this really needs to be done in combination with working to encourage a reorganisation of logistics to develop more space efficient 'last-mile' delivery, by cargo bike for example. Incentives to delivery companies for purchasing cargo bikes, development of cargo bike delivery spaces in town, stricter (and more strictly enforced) tonnage limits in town centres etc.

cgcsb

If DCC are really worried about revenue lost from parking, then just set up an ANPR system to catch bus/cycle lane violations, yellow box violations and illegal parking. That would produce more revenue than the combined wealth of Russia's oligarchs. Dublin could have a multi-line metro system made entirely of solid gold with parallel white water rafting routes and enough change left over to house 4 plebs off the housing list.

Sam Russell

cgcsb wrote: »

If DCC are really worried about revenue lost from parking, then just set up an ANPR system to catch bus/cycle lane violations, yellow box violations and illegal parking. That would produce more revenue than the combined wealth of Russia's oligarchs. Dublin could have a multi-line metro system made entirely of solid gold with parallel white water rafting routes and enough change left over to house 4 plebs off the housing list.

Not so sure about the white water rafting bit.

Speaking of which

Dublin motorists facing fines over clamping under plans

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0203/1194903-dublin-parking-fines/

Plans to charge motorists fines instead of clamping their vehicles have been approved by members of Dublin City Council's Transport Committee.

Motorists get charged €80 when their vehicle is clamped for breaches such as parking in bus lanes.

However, they could instead face fixed penalty notices for €40 under certain circumstances.

Parking Enforcement Officer Dermot Stevenson presented a report which pointed out problems with the clamping system.

He said bus lanes or cycles tracks remain disrupted by a clamped vehicle and if a tow truck is called to remove it, the offending motorist can drive off in the meantime without any penalty.

And when a number of vehicles are parked together such as outside a commercial area, once clampers start to disable one vehicle it gives time for the other motorists to remove theirs, he said.

Mr Stevenson stressed that the fixed penalty is just another option to be used and would not replace clamping.

He said 10% of the staff in the clamping company DSPS would operate the new system for a 12-month trial period.

Some councilors, including Fianna Fáil's Deirdre Heaney, asked that parking bays on clearways be coloured differently to alert motorists to the fact that their cars had to be removed at a specific time.

The meeting voted to send on the proposals to a full council meeting.

Seth Brundle

https://twitter.com/IrishCycle/status/1357328162712129539

cgcsb

Seth Brundle wrote: »

https://twitter.com/IrishCycle/status/1357328162712129539

Careful, they'll get the pitchforks out for you over this.

Amirani

Seth Brundle wrote: »

https://twitter.com/IrishCycle/status/1357328162712129539

This is really key to boosting women's participation in cycling.

I've seen some commentators suggest that more money spent on good cycling infrastructure is only benefitting "middle aged males" because that's who they see out cycling most. But the reason that they are the dominant cycling group is directly related to a lack of good infrastructure, which disproportionately impacts female participation. Women will on average benefit more from things like this, which is fantastic.

Similar point is made in Caroline Criado-Perez's excellent Invisible Women. She also points out that car-focused infrastructure benefits men more than women as men are more likely to own a car or have majority usage of a shared car. Hence women end up needing to find other ways to get around and rely more on public transport etc.

Sam Russell

Amirani wrote: »

This is really key to boosting women's participation in cycling.

This, among other things, affects girls cycling to school.

Also, strict school uniforms rules (no trouser alternatives) and lack of changing facilities in schools are also a negative impact on those girls that wish to cycle but feel intimidated.

It does not take much to solve these problems.

Seth Brundle

https://twitter.com/robertburns73/status/1357383394829758466

WeCount data for Dublin @ https://we-count.net/networks/dublin

Traffic is at the core of a variety of societal problems ranging from road safety, air, noise, and light pollution, to public health risks, to the liveability of our communities. However, obtaining objective traffic counts can be difficult, because local authorities usually only have the resources to monitor a limited number of roads. Therefore, the WeCount project has the opportunity to greatly improve data available on traffic in Greater Dublin – with the help of local citizens!

University College Dublin is organising the WeCount project in Dublin and will facilitate workshops where local communities can discuss their concerns around traffic in their neighbourhoods and can learn more about how to analyse traffic data. In addition, University College Dublin will install a limited number of citizen science environmental sensors to monitor air and noise pollution in strategic locations. This data will supplement the traffic data to establish the pathway from sources to local pollution problems.

Seth Brundle

https://twitter.com/dublincycling/status/1357619573923659776