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Cities around the world that are reducing car access

MJohnston

I thought this would be an interesting thread to track the efforts of various cities to reduce the amount of car access, and thereby improve either the public realm, transport infrastructure, or just the local environment.

Today Paris won a court case which will allow them to proceed with banning cars from the banks of the Seine:

https://twitter.com/Anne_Hidalgo/status/1055442830892654594

https://phys.org/news/2016-09-paris-cars-river-seine.html

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Thelonious Monk

The general hum and noise of a city seems to be more tyre traction on the road though. During lockdown no 1 it was deadly silent at night, now I can just hear the traffic hum from all over the city. They're quieter alright but still noisy.

[Deleted User]

P = passenger car, H = HGV

Prop = propulsion (engine) noise and Roll = tyre (rolling resistance) noise.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/legal-challenge-taken-over-decision-to-pedestrianise-malahide-street-1.4605927?mode=amp

And the Sandymount cycle lane up in the courts the last few days. I'm starting to think it's all hopeless.

[Deleted User]

magicbastarder wrote: »

this just highlights the farce in london where you can legally hire an e-scooter, but you cannot use your own.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-57609088

Seems that if it has lights then it's less likely to be confiscated.

McGrath5

Cities themselves aren't noisy, only car infested ones are.

[Deleted User]

If you like that youtube channel (and you should), check out https://www.youtube.com/c/CityBeautiful too

p_haugh

https://www.dlrcoco.ie/en/road-schemes/summer-streets

Dun Laoghaire pedestrian trial will be starting on Monday, will be interesting to see how well it does.

Thelonious Monk

https://mobile.twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1411075252864565252

So Ivana and other politicians want footpath parking to be made legal ffs

magicbastarder

the vaccination centre in the helix in DCU is moving to the national show centre out beside the airport in a week or two. i know DCU wanted their campus back, but the NSC is a *poor* substitute in terms of access.
the helix is walkable for thousands of people, the NCS is walkable for very few; and to get to the NCS on a bike you've to cycle one of the worst cycle lanes in dublin, unless you're confident enough to take the bus lane.
the helix is also accessible on about ten bus routes (4, 9, 11, 13, 44, 104, 126, 220, 155), at least three of which terminate literally outside. and there are more easily walkable bus routes - the 1 and 17A spring to mind.
the NSC is served by the 33, 41 and 102, i think.

MJohnston

Classic Official Ireland "shure everyone can take a car there" bollocks

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

P = passenger car, H = HGV

Prop = propulsion (engine) noise and Roll = tyre (rolling resistance) noise.

Where does my electric car with no engine noise and low rolling resistence fit in? It doesn't however you know when the electric train is rolling through the valley because it makes a lot of noise.
The biggest source of noise pollution are the recreational high powered motorbikes all weekend and in before Corona the Disco party boat on a Saturday night.

MJohnston

Deleted User wrote: »

Where does my electric car with no engine noise and low rolling resistence fit in? It doesn't however you know when the electric train is rolling through the valley because it makes a lot of noise.
The biggest source of noise pollution are the recreational high powered motorbikes all weekend and in before Corona the Disco party boat on a Saturday night.

Individual vehicles with loud engines might increase the average, but in a big city like Dublin, the overall noise pollution will be largely caused by tire noise at 50km/h or above, where there's basically zero difference between an EV and ICE cars. When you "hear" the M50 from a couple of km away, you're not hearing engines, you're generally hearing the voluminous white noise of tires.

[Deleted User]

MJohnston wrote: »

Individual vehicles with loud engines might increase the average, but in a big city like Dublin, the overall noise pollution will be largely caused by tire noise at 50km/h or above, where there's basically zero difference between an EV and ICE cars. When you "hear" the M50 from a couple of km away, you're not hearing engines, you're generally hearing the voluminous white noise of tires.

I'm not paying for expensive low rolling resistence tyres to have the same noise and fuel efficiency as normal stream roller tyres. Above 30kmph the noise may be appreciable but it would be nowhere near the noise of conventional tires.

MJohnston

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not paying for expensive low rolling resistence tyres to have the same noise and fuel efficiency as normal stream roller tyres. Above 30kmph the noise may be appreciable but it would be nowhere near the noise of conventional tires.

You're paying for expensive low-rolling resistance tyres because your car is much much heavier than a comparable ICE car, and because low-rolling resistance tyres help improve range. I have an i3 with the moped tyres, I know very well that it makes just as much noise above gridlock speeds as a regular car.

MJohnston

Don't take my word for it though:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Noise-level-comparison-between-EV-and-ICE-vehicles-at-various-speeds-Sandberg-et-al_fig7_288270778

pleasant Co.

MJohnston wrote: »

Individual vehicles with loud engines might increase the average, but in a big city like Dublin, the overall noise pollution will be largely caused by tire noise at 50km/h or above, where there's basically zero difference between an EV and ICE cars. When you "hear" the M50 from a couple of km away, you're not hearing engines, you're generally hearing the voluminous white noise of tires.

True, even directly outside of my home there's a very busy road but apart from bus engines, HGV engines and the very few obnoxious noisy engined cars (one of my elder neighbours has a V8 powered beast) all I can hear is tire roll as they zoom by at 50km/h + (the + is for the very important people who have to travel over the limit to get to the next traffic light)

MJohnston

pleasant Co. wrote: »

True, even directly outside of my home there's a very busy road but apart from bus engines, HGV engines and the very few obnoxious noisy engined cars (one of my elder neighbours has a V8 powered beast) all I can hear is tire roll as they zoom by at 50km/h + (the + is for the very important people who have to travel over the limit to get to the next traffic light)

Yeah, same, we're even on a major bus route too, and unless there's a bit of a traffic jam on the road beside us, you can't tell the difference in noise level from a passing car or bus or truck.

[Deleted User]

MJohnston wrote: »

You're paying for expensive low-rolling resistance tyres because your car is much much heavier than a comparable ICE car, and because low-rolling resistance tyres help improve range. I have an i3 with the moped tyres, I know very well that it makes just as much noise above gridlock speeds as a regular car.

No it doesn't. By law the noise level of the tyre must be published. My tyres are 4dB quieter than conventional tyres of the same size. 4dB on a logarithmic scale is a huge difference.

[Deleted User]

In general people only know my car is there because of the mandatory acoustic vehicle alerting system which I can't switch off. I could and did switch it off on my last EV to go in to Ninja mode.

MJohnston

Deleted User wrote: »

No it doesn't. By law the noise level of the tyre must be published. My tyres are 4dB quieter than conventional tyres of the same size. 4dB on a logarithmic scale is a huge difference.

Sorry, but that makes no sense on a few levels.

1. You may have a singularly quiet car — good for you, but it doesn't mean that the average noise created by an average EV at speed is any different from that generated by the average ICE. See the research above for more on that.
2. Tyres have decibel ratings, as required by EU law, but there's so much this rating doesn't take into account. Weight of the vehicle will effect tyre noise, as will the road surface, as will driving style.

MJohnston

Deleted User wrote: »

In general people only know my car is there because of the mandatory acoustic vehicle alerting system which I can't switch off. I could and did switch it off on my last EV to go in to Ninja mode.

Yeah but you're obviously talking here about low neighbourhood speeds because AVAS is not required above 20kph. There's a reason it's not required above that speed!

magicbastarder

Deleted User wrote: »

4dB on a logarithmic scale is a huge difference.

10dB roughly translates to a perceived doubling or halving of volume. so your 4dB is *not* a huge difference. it's a difference of about 1.3x as far as i can see.

[Deleted User]

MJohnston wrote: »

Sorry, but that makes no sense on a few levels.

1. You may have a singularly quiet car — good for you, but it doesn't mean that the average noise created by an average EV at speed is any different from that generated by the average ICE. See the research above for more on that.
2. Tyres have decibel ratings, as required by EU law, but there's so much this rating doesn't take into account. Weight of the vehicle will effect tyre noise, as will the road surface, as will driving style.

You are clutching a graph you found on the internet like it is the antidote to any contrary fact based view others may present. The E.U. forces manufacturers to produce noise emmission figures for tyres since many years so that Consumers can make informed choices regarding efficiency, wet weather performance and noise emmissions and all you can say is "Pah, I've got my graphs that says something else".
I don't have a particularly quiet EV. Many of the manufacturers are using this particular supplier as their preferred supplier of tyres for their EV cars.

I can well understand why your driving style may produce more noise in an i3. I have never driven a car before or since where the choice of tyre profile was so detrimental to the natural handling characteristics of the car...every sharp corner taken at anything above a steady trot provoked 4 wheel slide due to lack of surface area contact with the road surface.

[Deleted User]

magicbastarder wrote: »

10dB roughly translates to a perceived doubling or halving of volume. so your 4dB is *not* a huge difference. it's a difference of about 1.3x as far as i can see.

4dB is the difference in going from normal coversation volume level to the persistent drone of a loud diswasher. It is a huge difference.

[Deleted User]

MJohnston wrote: »

Yeah but you're obviously talking here about low neighbourhood speeds because AVAS is not required above 20kph. There's a reason it's not required above that speed!

30kmph. After 20kmph it can gradually reduce due to the cumulative effect of tire noise and the AVAS system.
https://ecomento.de/2021/07/05/neue-elektroautos-muessen-in-der-eu-kuenstliche-geraeusche-erzeugen-avas/
German text.

magicbastarder

Deleted User wrote: »

4dB is the difference in going from normal coversation volume level to the persistent drone of a loud diswasher. It is a huge difference.

this says 10dB.
and it doesn't specify a 'loud' dishwasher.
https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/hearing_loss/what_noises_cause_hearing_loss.html

4dB is *not* a huge difference, no matter how much you want to claim otherwise.

MJohnston

Deleted User wrote: »

You are clutching a graph you found on the internet like it is the antidote to any contrary fact based view others may present. The E.U. forces manufacturers to produce noise emmission figures for tyres since many years so that Consumers can make informed choices regarding efficiency, wet weather performance and noise emmissions and all you can say is "Pah, I've got my graphs that says something else".
I don't have a particularly quiet EV. Many of the manufacturers are using this particular supplier as their preferred supplier of tyres for their EV cars.

I'm sorry, but I'm not clutching at anything. There is plenty of research to show that average EV noise above 30kph is not much different to the average ICE. Simple question — do you disagree with that research? If so, why?

I've bolded a bit above that I think reflects how you're thinking too narrowly about this. Again, I'll point out that the characteristics of a tyre are only one part of the overall noise equation. Another simple question — do you disagree with this? If so, why?

[Deleted User]

magicbastarder wrote: »

this says 10dB.
and it doesn't specify a 'loud' dishwasher.
https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/hearing_loss/what_noises_cause_hearing_loss.html

4dB is *not* a huge difference, no matter how much you want to claim otherwise.

The household items usually used for comparisson are the humming fridge, the drone of a dishwasher and a washing machine on spin cycle which are all at very perceptible different levels of volume beyond that you get in to the realms of city traffic, lawnmowers, hammer drills, concerts and two stroke chainsaws.

You may not like that someone has educated themselves on the topic and disagrees with you but you just claiming they are lying isn't going to change the fact that they are correct.
This hate-fest on private transport with minimal environmental pollution footprint in terms of noise or hydrocarbon emmissions is just an example of group think.

[Deleted User]

I'm dropping out of this conversation. You as a group are misinformed, can't be argued with and I've better things to do.

MJohnston

Deleted User wrote: »

The household items usually used for comparisson are the humming fridge, the drone of a dishwasher and a washing machine on spin cycle which are all at very perceptible different levels of volume beyond that you get in to the realms of city traffic, lawnmowers, hammer drills, concerts and two stroke chainsaws.

You may not like that someone has educated themselves on the topic and disagrees with you but you just claiming they are lying isn't going to change the fact that they are correct.
This hate-fest on private transport with minimal environmental pollution footprint in terms of noise or hydrocarbon emmissions is just an example of group think.

You're talking about the difference between something like 68dB and 71dB as being sufficient to mitigate noise pollution, so I'm not sure you've truly understood the topic at hand tbh