Margins from suckler beef

MIKEKC · 24-06-2021 06:14PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

440 kgs DW would be above average for Suckler bred cattle. There is a reason why Friesians are carried to thirty months it's because ration has gone too expensive. If I reared Friesian's from calves to 30 months I be disappointed if they were many that were less that 350 kgs DW. I often bought them at 5-6 months of age and hung them above 350 at 28/29 months.

The big fact is however that not all calves from the dairy herd are FR's there are a lot of AA's HE's and dairyX continentals.

In most leasing situations SFP is paid separately to lease money or topped up onto it in stronger dairying area's.

Is there much difference letting fresians go over 30 months given that most won't get bonus. During the summer fresians will gain weight cheaply. An extra 4-5 months should mean another 100 kg lw .

Cavanjack · 24-06-2021 07:54PM

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

In all the discussion here, I'm amazed that nobody mentioned the elephant in the room here - "the price of beef". Even the worst of farmers will make a profit if the beef price is right.

As for handling wild cattle, I've picked up a few tricks over the years. I cringe when I think what we were at here years ago.
I have a few suckler cows and calves in an awkward field on the side of the motorway. Now years ago, it would take 3 or even 4 of us to round them up and load them. This week, I needed to load them as they had the field skinned. Started off 2 days ago with a kg of meal into a half plastic barrel at the top of the field. Yesterday I went into the field, turned over the barrel and all of them came running. I dragged the barrel down the field, into the pen. All 8 of them went straight in. Straight home and got the trailer.
Years ago, it would be mad drama trying to load them.

It's the same with all my neighbours that have sucklers. They can all manage them no problem with a bit of meal training and the odd electric fence reel laid out right.

Re the price of beef, stores are making great money. Ive seen good 2 year old Charolais bullocks making €1900 over the last week. This will encourage the suckler and store man for another while.

Bass Reeves · 24-06-2021 08:02PM

MIKEKC wrote: »

Is there much difference letting fresians go over 30 months given that most won't get bonus. During the summer fresians will gain weight cheaply. An extra 4-5 months should mean another 100 kg lw .

Friesians struggle to put weight on from September on. They do not react to ration from then on and could melt if not given it.. You have to start moving cattle at some stage and I find it easier to get Fr to flesh up in July/August rather than October.

I have 60 two year old cattle on 60 acres, I cannot carry them all into November. A friesian that grades O- under 30 months at a 4/kg base makes 3.88/ kg. If he grades the same in November at a 3.8/ kg base the price is 3.56/kg, you word be hoping he go up a grade but I always find Friesians do not grade from October on

335 grading O- @ 3.88/ kg =1300 euro under 30months
375 grading O-@ 3.56/kg= 1335 over 30mounths
375 grading O=@ 3.7/ kg= 1375 over 30 months

Danzy · 24-06-2021 08:42PM

MIKEKC wrote: »

Is there much difference letting fresians go over 30 months given that most won't get bonus. During the summer fresians will gain weight cheaply. An extra 4-5 months should mean another 100 kg lw .

Think it's a case of have to in most cases.

Anto_Meath · 24-06-2021 09:12PM

Cavanjack wrote: »

Re the price of beef, stores are making great money. Ive seen good 2 year old Charolais bullocks making €1900 over the last week. This will encourage the suckler and store man for another while.

Looking at alright, my factory agent (who also buys store heifers for people) told me this evening store heifers were 20c / kg up in Carnaross today compared to a month ago.. I ve noticed that if beef prices increase then store prices seem to increase by even more..

Bass Reeves · 24-06-2021 09:50PM

Danzy wrote: »

Think it's a case of have to in most cases.

Even in that case returns can be very marginal. When friesian's get out beyond September they need ration and silage on grass to maintain weight. IMO they struggle to put on real condition and weight even on 4-5kgs of ration and access to grass and silage. Costs can be 2 euro/day to carry and if indoors they do little better and costs climb to beyond 3/day.

i have seen lads kill 24-26 month old Friesians out of sheds in April and May after eating 1-1.25 tons of ration over a winter. 30 month+ friesian weighting over 700kgs requires a lot of maintenance. Finish them by the end of September or let them roll over for another year

Cavanjack · 24-06-2021 09:53PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Even in that case returns can be very marginal. When friesian's get out beyond September they need ration and silage on grass to maintain weight. IMO they struggle to put on real condition and weight even on 4-5kgs of ration and access to grass and silage. Costs can be 2 euro/day to carry and if indoors they do little better and costs climb to beyond 3/day.

i have seen lads kill 24-26 month old Friesians out of sheds in April and May after eating 1-1.25 tons of ration over a winter. 30 month+ friesian weighting over 700kgs requires a lot of maintenance. Finish them by the end of September or let them roll over for another year

You are as well do them as bulls if finishing out of the shed.

Bass Reeves · 24-06-2021 10:05PM

Cavanjack wrote: »

You are as well do them as bulls if finishing out of the shed.

You are caught there as well as they have to be finished by 24 months. This bangs them right up against the majority of the cattle slaughtering period over the winter Feb/March when there is lots of cattle available as well. As the majority only grade O=/+ they can really be discounted at that time of year and can be 30-40c/kg below the base.

I see a few larger scale lads that finish them in November. They buy them in April/May grass them until August and feed them then for 100 days. But they tend to have understanding with the processors as to when these cattle are going to be taken.

Cavanjack · 24-06-2021 11:32PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You are caught there as well as they have to be finished by 24 months. This bangs them right up against the majority of the cattle slaughtering period over the winter Feb/March when there is lots of cattle available as well. As the majority only grade O=/+ they can really be discounted at that time of year and can be 30-40c/kg below the base.

I see a few larger scale lads that finish them in November. They buy them in April/May grass them until August and feed them then for 100 days. But they tend to have understanding with the processors as to when these cattle are going to be taken.

November not a great time either for friesian bulls for the normal joe as you have a lot of cattle coming off grass but as you say the bigger lad might have an agreement with factory.

Bass Reeves · 25-06-2021 07:37AM

Cavanjack wrote: »

November not a great time either for friesian bulls for the normal joe as you have a lot of cattle coming off grass but as you say the bigger lad might have an agreement with factory.

And I wouldn't do them either but I see two larger lads that do it. They also do the U16 month FR bull April/May.

weatherbyfoxer · 25-06-2021 08:17AM

did a batch of friesian bullocks off grass at 26-28 month off grass this summer,killed the last week of may for an average of €1480 and cost €900 to get there..probably the least amount of labour i had with a batch of cattle too.

Bass Reeves · 25-06-2021 09:15AM

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

did a batch of friesian bullocks off grass at 26-28 month off grass this summer,killed the last week of may for an average of €1480 and cost €900 to get there..probably the least amount of labour i had with a batch of cattle too.

They must have graded very well or got a very good flat price. Even at a flat price of 4.1 they averaged 360 kgs DW. Excellent performance. At 900 euro costs you are probably feeding a bit of ration during second winter. I be inclined to remove this as it has little benefit.

Well done it just shows all the negatively lads gave about dairyX stock is unfounded. If you had 40 of them in 60 acres you be netting 22k not a bad years work with BPS, ANC and a bit of GLAS you would be at 35k of an income it only a matter of sorting the tax then.

I know you would have a bust Feb-May with the calves and the finishing bullocks but it's well worth it.

According to an agent I was talking to he bought FR bullocks out of the shed in mid May they ate 300/ head and in ration alone. They only averaged 325DW. We can see who is the winner here

Easten · 25-06-2021 11:58AM

I done up some rough figures here, without paying myself a cent and I know theirs more costs involved.

TR23R3C

https://ibb.co/TR23R3C

youllbemine · 25-06-2021 12:04PM

Easten wrote: »

I done up some rough figures here, without paying myself a cent and I know theirs more costs involved.

https://ibb.co/TR23R3C

Thanks for those figures. Very well broken down.

Looks like you're running approx 27 sucklers? For €4k profit. What would profits look like if you were to finish them yourself? FIL out of sucklers now but had 50 odd head and is now buying in weanlings to finish. Seems to get a nice turn out of them. Handy sfp and rents out a lot of ground yearly. So would imagine he's taking in a nice bit for the amount of input. And no late nights worrying about cows calving either...

Easten · 25-06-2021 12:13PM

youllbemine wrote: »

Thanks for those figures. Very well broken down.

Looks like you're running approx 27 sucklers? For €4k profit. What would profits look like if you were to finish them yourself? FIL out of sucklers now but had 50 odd head and is now buying in weanlings to finish. Seems to get a nice turn out of them. Handy sfp and rents out a lot of ground yearly. So would imagine he's taking in a nice bit for the amount of input. And no late nights worrying about cows calving either...

Not really an option for me, I haven't the sheds or land quality to do that. But what I do know is 80 euro a week for this system is a waste of time and effort. I do believe that if if I could somehow retain the sfp and just rent out the land or sell the silage I'd be money in.
Better still if the EU gave me the extra 80/week I'd leave the land fallow for them!!

Bass Reeves · 25-06-2021 02:44PM

Easten wrote: »

Not really an option for me, I haven't the sheds or land quality to do that. But what I do know is 80 euro a week for this system is a waste of time and effort. I do believe that if if I could somehow retain the sfp and just rent out the land or sell the silage I'd be money in.
Better still if the EU gave me the extra 80/week I'd leave the land fallow for them!!

Are the cows outwintered or have you cubicles for them

squinn2912 · 25-06-2021 03:34PM

Just saw in the north that beef has gone up by 6p for prime beef and 10p for cows. This time last year prime beef was getting 38p less and cows 20p less. That would be letting you out as much as you’re depending on it to stick at that

25-06-2021 04:43PM

squinn2912 wrote: »

Just saw in the north that beef has gone up by 6p for prime beef and 10p for cows. This time last year prime beef was getting 38p less and cows 20p less. That would be letting you out as much as you’re depending on it to stick at that

Hopefully the prices hold.

Looking at last year a U grade bullock that made 1700 odd will be up to around 2k in 2021

Cavanjack · 25-06-2021 05:03PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hopefully the prices hold.

Looking at last year a U grade bullock that made 1700 odd will be up to around 2k in 2021

Killed bullocks this day last year at 380kg €3.60 base. They’d be up €230 at today’s prices.

25-06-2021 05:06PM

Cavanjack wrote: »

Killed bullocks this day last year at 380kg €3.60 base. They’d be up €230 at today’s prices.

Its a lot of money multiplied out over a load of 14 cattle hitting the factory.

epfff · 25-06-2021 05:12PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its a lot of money multiplied out over a load of 14 cattle hitting the factory.

It's costing a lot more to replace the cattle. I think I was better off last year with meal diesal and replacement cost increases. But price rise has psychological benefits

Cavanjack · 25-06-2021 06:25PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its a lot of money multiplied out over a load of 14 cattle hitting the factory.

It is and would be closer to €300 more in heavy continental cattle.
I’ll be holding off buying stores this autumn if they are up €300 on last year.

minerleague · 26-06-2021 07:56PM

epfff wrote: »

It's costing a lot more to replace the cattle. I think I was better off last year with meal diesal and replacement cost increases. But price rise has psychological benefits

Thats always the problem for trading ( buying and selling) but it should be stable from year to year. Really notice as suckler farmer finishing all cattle when base price goes above £4/kg

Easten · 06-07-2021 10:48AM

See Larry Goodman had another great year in 2020 despite the pandemic his profits grew.
I used to be very skeptical of all those environmental schemes but if it puts money in my pocket then I'm in.
I really hope the new CAP goes down the lines of more of these schemes. As it stands suckler farmers have nothing to loose from the likes of these schemes.

06-07-2021 11:42PM

Easten wrote: »

See Larry Goodman had another great year in 2020 despite the pandemic his profits grew.
I used to be very skeptical of all those environmental schemes but if it puts money in my pocket then I'm in.
I really hope the new CAP goes down the lines of more of these schemes. As it stands suckler farmers have nothing to loose from the likes of these schemes.

Teagasc is going down the "extensive suckler" farmer route now as well.

Is beef week on this year?

Easten · 23-01-2022 12:35PM

Taken from my estimates late last year

I think with diesel and fertilizer along with other commodities on the rise these figures are out of date even now.

I don't include cull or replacement costs as the Cull cow will pay for her replacement

Dinzee Conlee · 23-01-2022 03:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118520549#Comment_118520549

Would you / will you you pack in the sucklers Eastern?

Easten · 23-01-2022 04:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118521110#Comment_118521110

Yes I'd pack it in. All it would take is 1 bad year to put me off it completely. I'm hanging in to see what comes of the new round of CAP. As it stands I get to keep the SFP, ANC and the payments from the Beep and BDGP but I reckon I could keep the SFP and ANC just by selling the silage/hay out of the place.

No real alternatives, as I haven't any experience in, or the appetite for the upfront Dairy costs to go milking cows

Sheep would be a no as well.

Buying stores to beef or calf to beef systems are worse than what I'm at.

I believe some form of Agroforesty-Organic system is the way to go but the Government have too many stupid rules in place.

It all boils down to the hopeless prices we get for some Weanlens and cattle in general. The consumer has gotten too used to really cheap food.

23-01-2022 05:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118521309#Comment_118521309

Is there a margin in selling grass for silage or selling bales of hay or silage?

Bass Reeves · 23-01-2022 05:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118520549#Comment_118520549

Its just shows the crazyness of the cost of suckler cows. You neither have turnover nor sales numbers to defray costs. Looking at your figures a cow is eating 9.5/bales during the winter and another bale for each weanling. This year I will probably over winter stores with about 3.3 bales/head. Other winters it's not much over 4/head. At those figures I am wintering 2.5-2.8 stores for each cow/calf unit. You are trying to defray costsover too few animals. Aswell the extra costs with sucklers is killing the business. Replacement, vet, tagging, straw, bull and empty dead cow/calf are adding 180-200/unit that is not there with stores.

my dosing cost would be around 7.5/head ( and I do stores for IBR) and vet would be less than 10/head. I actually think you are underestimating grass costs. For a 25 cow suckler herd 2500 in grass costs seems low. I allow 100/unit and have 60-65 bullocks on 24 HA going in on the BPS. My fixed costs would be no higher than your but diving it over 61 bullocks instead of 26 cow puts it at 73 euro. Your mortality(and empty) costs are running at 3-4 times a store to finishing system and thebull replacement costs is not in existance in a store system.

Buying stores to beef or calf to beef systems are worse than what I'm at.

I have to disagree with this. Some raw data from this year.

Average sale price 1292/head

Average purchase price in 2020 =605/head

average replacement in 2021 =637/head

This gives me an average gross margin of 655/head and a net margin of 305 off replacement cost

Ration approx 50/head

Fertlizer was <50/head

Slurry 26/head

I cost grass at 100/head or over 6k/year. However this covers fertlizer costs, fencing hedgecutting, topping, reseeding( have done none in 4-5 yeras) spraying etc.

Margins from suckler beef

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