Margins from suckler beef

Albert Johnson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is what it is, depending on perspective, it's amazing what a change in perspective does. I would suggest most farmers would benefit considerably spending a few thousand exploring knowledge of soil health, holistic management and the like. Running heavy cont cattle on ground where more suitable primitive breeds would thrive, for example, appears to be a basic error.

I'd be all in favour of the above however it would be a steep learning curve at the start. I know nothing about any of your first points and it's something I should definitely be working on and the same would probably be true of most lads. As for our own native breeds I firmly believe that a lot more could be done to utilise them. How many French farmers run herds of Irish Moiled or Dexters? Yet we've been pushing continental cattle as the only show in town for decades.

Albert Johnson

Albert Johnson wrote: »

I'd be all in favour of the above however it would be a steep learning curve at the start. I know nothing about any of your first points and it's something I should definitely be working on and the same would probably be true of most lads. As for our own native breeds I firmly believe that a lot more could be done to utilise them. How many French farmers run herds of Irish Moiled or Dexters? Yet we've been pushing continental cattle as the only show in town for decades.

I came back a changed man from BioFarm 2019, it wasn't by any means the start of the journey but it certainly was a catalyst for turbo charging my changing perspective. Staying in the usual ruts just keeps us where others want us.

Not for a minute saying it's easy, but it helps stand back from being one with the bark of the tree for a while to see the whole forest. Other things are possible, what those specific things are depends on the individual and their own location.

It's that exposure to new ideas and thinking that stirs creativity and hunger to do more exploring.

Bass Reeves

grassroot1 wrote: »

In effect though you are using beef farmers payments to solve dairy farmers problems.
The suckler is being scapegoated to allow the expansion of dairy on two counts.
1. Remove the suckler and make beef farmers buy the problem excess dairy calves, transferring the beef mans bps to the dairy man in the process.
2. Removing the suckler cow will lessen the need for dairy cows to be removed to sort the climate bill.
If you believe that too many beef animals are coming to market because of the suckler cow Bass then you also have to blame the dairy cross calf and the cull dairy cow.
I agree with you however suckler beef production is unviable.

No I am not. The reality is that calves from the dairy herd will continue to be produced as long as milk is produced for dairy production. There is nothing we can do about that.

The market is demanding carcasses in the 280-350 kgs for the prime beef market. Most of the rest is manufacturing beef. At present the largest demand is for AA beef and it is climbing.

At 4.5/ kg a 360 kg carcasse is worth 1620 euro. Suckler beef cannot be produced for that money in Ireland with QA and and an R+ animal it requires a base of 4.25/ kg for a continental animal. Many larger finishers with the extra 10c/ kg for finishing over 50 AA/ year can achieve that price on the same base with an O+ bullock.

A 330 kg O+ AA bullock would nearly reach 1500 euro on the same base. Guess which leaves the most money to the beef farmer producing them.

I disagree that BPS from beef is subsidizing milk production. With the convergence of payments money will move from dairy BPS to drystock BPS payments.

Dairy culls are a fact of the milk production system. Actually they are only a small piece I. The increase in beef production. EBI has pushed the abity of cows to stay in production and increase in number of lactations has decreased culling rates so the increase in dairy culls is not as pronounced as the effects of extra calves

Base price

People are forgetting that proposed Nitrate limitations may possibly reverse some of the recent dairy expansion thus resulting in reduced dairy bred/cross bred stock.
https://www.farmersjournal.ie/new-slurry-dates-and-nitrogen-limit-for-all-farmers-630541

Finty Lemon

Anto_Meath wrote: »

If you have a farmer with marginal land and he is running 15 -20 suckler he would lot less work to do than if he was rearing 40 -50 dairy beef calves. Many of these lads are part time farmers so sucklers suits them.

Not sure about this. I left suckling partly because of the hassle and unpredictability of work especially around calving and breeding. Always the problems came when you had to be out the door for work. Retired fathers tipping about disguises a lot.
You can run double the numbers of bucket reared calves for less labour if well set up for milk feeding. Powder milk once a day for about 90 days in spring and job done. Dosing etc can all be planned out fairly well. But I take the point that if sickness gets in bucket calves in the shed or at grass it takes effort to put it right.

Bass Reeves

Base price wrote: »

People are forgetting that proposed Nitrate limitations may possibly reverse some of the recent dairy expansion thus resulting in reduced dairy bred/cross bred stock.
https://www.farmersjournal.ie/new-slurry-dates-and-nitrogen-limit-for-all-farmers-630541

Not really, I think nitrates limits will slow and stop expansion but it will not reduce cow numbers from.oresent numbers. The elephant in the room continues to be out ability to export calves. While I like to see present suckler supports stopped and maybe a targeted suckler cow reduction scheme I think it's unlikely. Therefore the reality of the existing150-180 subsidity to the Suckler cow will continue. However I think it would be a retrograde step to couple payments to cows or ewes

Bass Reeves

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Not sure about this. I left suckling partly because of the hassle and unpredictability of work especially around calving and breeding. Always the problems came when you had to be out the door for work. Retired fathers tipping about disguises a lot.
You can run double the numbers of bucket reared calves for less labour if well set up for milk feeding. Powder milk once a day for about 90 days in spring and job done. Dosing etc can all be planned out fairly well. But I take the point that if sickness gets in bucket calves in the shed or at grass it takes effort to put it right.

I often think the work related to dairy calves is exaggerated if you have fairly decent facilities and these are not overly expensive. As well they are Tam's grant aided. Feeding calves is a structured work. You can plan the rest of your work or life around it. It not like on an evening you intent taking the young lady to music classes and there is a cow calving.

I was at a farm a few weeks ago where a lad was rearing over 70 calves and sin 2019 he has not lost a calf. Lads are getting better at it. As well it getting easier to buy direct from dairy farms with more price reality being within the system

Bass Reeves

Bass Reeves wrote: »

At 4.5/ kg a 360 kg carcasse is worth 1620 euro. Suckler beef cannot be produced for that money in Ireland with QA and and an R+ animal it requires a base of 4.25/ kg for a continental animal. Many larger finishers with the extra 10c/ kg for finishing over 50 AA/ year can achieve that price on the same base with an O+ bullock.

From my experience a limousin suckler bullock is finished at around 440 kg at 26 months (thats the average) and typically r3.

Freisan bullocks are often 100 kg back from that tipping 30 months.

Processed around 60 animals last year around 40 sucklers bred cattle.

This year anyone buying dairy bred yearling bullocks will struggle to turn a profit in 22.

I think its possible to make money from suckling but you can't be entertaining hard calvings, empty cows and needless cost. You need to be aiming for feed efficient cattle that dont eat a load of silage and do not feed meal over the winter.

I also think a farmer could make money at the mart if they are a good judge of stock etc and buy cattle and keep costs down.

You need to aim at what you can succeed at and are good at.

The dairy expansion is totally subsidised by the sfp, a dairy famer rents your land and basically pays you your entitlements after drawing them.

Bass Reeves

[Deleted User] wrote: »

From my experience a limousin suckler bullock is finished at around 440 kg at 26 months (thats the average) and typically r3.

AA / Freisan are often 100 kg back from that tipping 30 months.

Processed around 60 animals last year around 40 sucklers bred cattle.

This year anyone buying dairy bred yearling bullocks will struggle to turn a profit in 22.

I think its possible to make money from suckling but you can't be entertaining hard calvings, empty cows and needless cost. You need to be aiming for feed efficient cattle that dont eat a load of silage and do not feed meal over the winter.

I also think a farmer could make money at the mart if they are a good judge of stock etc and buy cattle and keep costs down.

You need to aim at what you can succeed at and are good at.

The dairy expansion is totally subsidised by the sfp, a dairy famer rents your land and basically pays you your entitlements after drawing them.

440 kgs DW would be above average for Suckler bred cattle. There is a reason why Friesians are carried to thirty months it's because ration has gone too expensive. If I reared Friesian's from calves to 30 months I be disappointed if they were many that were less that 350 kgs DW. I often bought them at 5-6 months of age and hung them above 350 at 28/29 months.

The big fact is however that not all calves from the dairy herd are FR's there are a lot of AA's HE's and dairyX continentals.

In most leasing situations SFP is paid separately to lease money or topped up onto it in stronger dairying area's.

Bass Reeves

Bass Reeves wrote: »

440 kgs DW would be above average for Suckler bred cattle. There is a reason why Friesians are carried to thirty months it's because ration has gone too expensive. If I reared Friesian's from calves to 30 months I be disappointed if they were many that were less that 350 kgs DW. I often bought them at 5-6 months of age and hung them above 350 at 28/29 months.

The big fact is however that not all Val es from the dairy herd are FR's there are a lot of AA's HE's and dairyX continentals

I agree on ration being too expensive, I remember seeing fellows building freisan bullocks up to 10 kg a day a head to get them in under 30 months, total mugs game.

350 is an excellent dw for freisans and if you keep your costs down you can make money there. The real key for me is bulid a relationship with a local dairy farmer and avoid the mart.

We are getting our suckler bullocks in to those weights and the best advice id give a suckler farmer is to go for an easy calving bull and keep costs down.

Wed often buy yearling dairy bred heifers or bullocks but at this years prices I will just cut more strong paddocks as silage and keep costs down.

yosemitesam1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

No I am not. The reality is that calves from the dairy herd will continue to be produced as long as milk is produced for dairy production. There is nothing we can do about that.

The market is demanding carcasses in the 280-350 kgs for the prime beef market. Most of the rest is manufacturing beef. At present the largest demand is for AA beef and it is climbing.

At 4.5/ kg a 360 kg carcasse is worth 1620 euro. Suckler beef cannot be produced for that money in Ireland with QA and and an R+ animal it requires a base of 4.25/ kg for a continental animal. Many larger finishers with the extra 10c/ kg for finishing over 50 AA/ year can achieve that price on the same base with an O+ bullock.

A 330 kg O+ AA bullock would nearly reach 1500 euro on the same base. Guess which leaves the most money to the beef farmer producing them.

I disagree that BPS from beef is subsidizing milk production. With the convergence of payments money will move from dairy BPS to drystock BPS payments.

Dairy culls are a fact of the milk production system. Actually they are only a small piece I. The increase in beef production. EBI has pushed the abity of cows to stay in production and increase in number of lactations has decreased culling rates so the increase in dairy culls is not as pronounced as the effects of extra calves

There's high input sucklers and no input (or very close to) sucklers. High inputs doesn't pay anywhere in the world but most of the costs could be stripped out if one was to accept a plainer animal at the end.
Strip out dosing, meal, fertiliser, reseeding while allowing for a system better suited to environmental schemes and the difference to rearing dairy calves might not be quite as large as is often made out.
Cluanview farm is an example, pretty much nothing put into them. Might not be the best fit for everyone but definitely deserves consideration

Anto_Meath

Another issue with feeding dairy calves that I have noticed this year from the dairy calves I am feed is the Je breeding is now starting to show.
I bought 2 nice little BBx cross calves in March of this year, they were 21 days old @ €175. Nice little pair of calves but when I looked at ICBF 1 of them has 10% JE in him. Now that they are off milk you can see the JE breeding really starting to come out in him. He will be a fine P in 2 years. But in the mart the day he was sold you wouldn't notice it.

cute geoge

Anto_Meath wrote: »

Another issue with feeding dairy calves that I have noticed this year from the dairy calves I am feed is the Je breeding is now starting to show.
I bought 2 nice little BBx cross calves in March of this year, they were 21 days old @ €175. Nice little pair of calves but when I looked at ICBF 1 of them has 10% JE in him. Now that they are off milk you can see the JE breeding really starting to come out in him. He will be a fine P in 2 years. But in the mart the day he was sold you wouldn't notice it.

You did not notice but the trained eye of the jobbers did and any way what sort a bb do you expect for E175

DBK1

Anto_Meath wrote: »

Another issue with feeding dairy calves that I have noticed this year from the dairy calves I am feed is the Je breeding is now starting to show.
I bought 2 nice little BBx cross calves in March of this year, they were 21 days old @ €175. Nice little pair of calves but when I looked at ICBF 1 of them has 10% JE in him. Now that they are off milk you can see the JE breeding really starting to come out in him. He will be a fine P in 2 years. But in the mart the day he was sold you wouldn't notice it.

Agreed on that. You can see it creeping into some of the white heads as well. Unfortunately, as you said, this doesn’t stand out until after they come off the milk. Usually about 4-6 weeks after weaning that you can really pick out the runts from the good calves which will be powering on ahead.

Bass Reeves

Anto_Meath wrote: »

Another issue with feeding dairy calves that I have noticed this year from the dairy calves I am feed is the Je breeding is now starting to show.
I bought 2 nice little BBx cross calves in March of this year, they were 21 days old @ €175. Nice little pair of calves but when I looked at ICBF 1 of them has 10% JE in him. Now that they are off milk you can see the JE breeding really starting to come out in him. He will be a fine P in 2 years. But in the mart the day he was sold you wouldn't notice it.

DBK1 wrote: »

Agreed on that. You can see it creeping into some of the white heads as well. Unfortunately, as you said, this doesn’t stand out until after they come off the milk. Usually about 4-6 weeks after weaning that you can really pick out the runts from the good calves which will be powering on ahead.

I suspect that if there is an issue with that BB calf it not all down to JE breeding. At 10% it would not be a dominant factor in his breeding. There is probably other issues with either his BB site or his FR breeding.

What is happening with HE and AA is the use of easy calving low genomic bulls. At the end of the day the biggest issue with lads struggling with dairy X calves and profitability is they pay too much for them. Good few lads have changed from suckler's and t
Most find it as or more profitable than suckler's. Most lads struggle with there costs. Most fail to grasp that beef farming dose not give a return on excessive inputs.

I was at a discussion group farm walk a few years ago. Really top class farmer and he was asked ( by a Teagasc advisor) did he vaccinate his calves which were Friesian bulls. He had 100 of them his reply was on average he lost 2 calves per hundred. Vaccination at 6-8/ head would cost 6-800 euro. Even if he called the vet to both calves and had medicine costs it would not run to that after paying knackery.

Just as an aside there are less JE straws being used for the last two years than previous. I always find the cross back from a JEX to be f
Easier to finish and as profitable as many running the mill Fr cattle

Anto_Meath

cute geoge wrote: »

You did not notice but the trained eye of the jobbers did and any way what sort a bb do you expect for E175

I knew he was never going to grade a U, but I am surprised at how you can now see the 10% JE alot more dominant than the 50% BB.. his comrade out of the same bull (BB6199) is a lovely square calf, should be an R. These small frame animals will not encourage people to change over to a dairy beef system. I have some fine FR bullocks we are killing at the minute €3.95 for P's killing out 360 - 380kgs DW these are leaving money as they can carry the weight, any that grade O's are leave €70 - €80 more. But a small P grade lad at 300kgs DW or less wouldn't. That will put lads off quick enough.

patsy_mccabe

In all the discussion here, I'm amazed that nobody mentioned the elephant in the room here - "the price of beef". Even the worst of farmers will make a profit if the beef price is right.

As for handling wild cattle, I've picked up a few tricks over the years. I cringe when I think what we were at here years ago.
I have a few suckler cows and calves in an awkward field on the side of the motorway. Now years ago, it would take 3 or even 4 of us to round them up and load them. This week, I needed to load them as they had the field skinned. Started off 2 days ago with a kg of meal into a half plastic barrel at the top of the field. Yesterday I went into the field, turned over the barrel and all of them came running. I dragged the barrel down the field, into the pen. All 8 of them went straight in. Straight home and got the trailer.
Years ago, it would be mad drama trying to load them.

It's the same with all my neighbours that have sucklers. They can all manage them no problem with a bit of meal training and the odd electric fence reel laid out right.

Dunedin

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

In all the discussion here, I'm amazed that nobody mentioned the elephant in the room here - "the price of beef". Even the worst of farmers will make a profit if the beef price is right.

As for handling wild cattle, I've picked up a few tricks over the years. I cringe when I think what we were at here years ago.
I have a few suckler cows and calves in an awkward field on the side of the motorway. Now years ago, it would take 3 or even 4 of us to round them up and load them. This week, I needed to load them as they had the field skinned. Started off 2 days ago with a kg of meal into a half plastic barrel at the top of the field. Yesterday I went into the field, turned over the barrel and all of them came running. I dragged the barrel down the field, into the pen. All 8 of them went straight in. Straight home and got the trailer.
Years ago, it would be mad drama trying to load them.

It's the same with all my neighbours that have sucklers. They can all manage them no problem with a bit of meal training and the odd electric fence reel laid out right.

Agree 1000% on that re handling cattle. Often think back when we were doing anything with cattle we’d have 4 or 5 neighbors and still get hardship. Now it’s one call with the electric fence reel out in the right place and me on my own and they come running.

To be fair, I think most farmers have copped on to this.

Bullocks

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

There's high input sucklers and no input (or very close to) sucklers. High inputs doesn't pay anywhere in the world but most of the costs could be stripped out if one was to accept a plainer animal at the end.
Strip out dosing, meal, fertiliser, reseeding while allowing for a system better suited to environmental schemes and the difference to rearing dairy calves might not be quite as large as is often made out.
Cluanview farm is an example, pretty much nothing put into them. Might not be the best fit for everyone but definitely deserves consideration

There are some very high input suckler farms around and its very hard to take any cribbing from them seriously.
Did it ever in the history or suckling pay to have a fine new tractor, big sheds, machinery. I see plenty of these farms and they selling 20 or 30 weanlings a year. Sure the profit couldn't be match the spend.
I'll be lightly stocked with trouble free cows that take as little time off me as possible. Take advantage of any scheme that will suit and leave a few bob.

Birdnuts

Bullocks wrote: »

There are some very high input suckler farms around and its very hard to take any cribbing from them seriously.
Did it ever in the history or suckling pay to have a fine new tractor, big sheds, machinery. I see plenty of these farms and they selling 20 or 30 weanlings a year. Sure the profit couldn't be match the spend.
I'll be lightly stocked with trouble free cows that take as little time off me as possible. Take advantage of any scheme that will suit and leave a few bob.

Know a good few lads like that around the place and they have some of the finest stock you'll see anywhere

MIKEKC

Bass Reeves wrote: »

440 kgs DW would be above average for Suckler bred cattle. There is a reason why Friesians are carried to thirty months it's because ration has gone too expensive. If I reared Friesian's from calves to 30 months I be disappointed if they were many that were less that 350 kgs DW. I often bought them at 5-6 months of age and hung them above 350 at 28/29 months.

The big fact is however that not all calves from the dairy herd are FR's there are a lot of AA's HE's and dairyX continentals.

In most leasing situations SFP is paid separately to lease money or topped up onto it in stronger dairying area's.

Is there much difference letting fresians go over 30 months given that most won't get bonus. During the summer fresians will gain weight cheaply. An extra 4-5 months should mean another 100 kg lw .

Cavanjack

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

In all the discussion here, I'm amazed that nobody mentioned the elephant in the room here - "the price of beef". Even the worst of farmers will make a profit if the beef price is right.

As for handling wild cattle, I've picked up a few tricks over the years. I cringe when I think what we were at here years ago.
I have a few suckler cows and calves in an awkward field on the side of the motorway. Now years ago, it would take 3 or even 4 of us to round them up and load them. This week, I needed to load them as they had the field skinned. Started off 2 days ago with a kg of meal into a half plastic barrel at the top of the field. Yesterday I went into the field, turned over the barrel and all of them came running. I dragged the barrel down the field, into the pen. All 8 of them went straight in. Straight home and got the trailer.
Years ago, it would be mad drama trying to load them.

It's the same with all my neighbours that have sucklers. They can all manage them no problem with a bit of meal training and the odd electric fence reel laid out right.

Re the price of beef, stores are making great money. Ive seen good 2 year old Charolais bullocks making €1900 over the last week. This will encourage the suckler and store man for another while.

Bass Reeves

MIKEKC wrote: »

Is there much difference letting fresians go over 30 months given that most won't get bonus. During the summer fresians will gain weight cheaply. An extra 4-5 months should mean another 100 kg lw .

Friesians struggle to put weight on from September on. They do not react to ration from then on and could melt if not given it.. You have to start moving cattle at some stage and I find it easier to get Fr to flesh up in July/August rather than October.

I have 60 two year old cattle on 60 acres, I cannot carry them all into November. A friesian that grades O- under 30 months at a 4/kg base makes 3.88/ kg. If he grades the same in November at a 3.8/ kg base the price is 3.56/kg, you word be hoping he go up a grade but I always find Friesians do not grade from October on

335 grading O- @ 3.88/ kg =1300 euro under 30months
375 grading O-@ 3.56/kg= 1335 over 30mounths
375 grading O=@ 3.7/ kg= 1375 over 30 months

Danzy

MIKEKC wrote: »

Is there much difference letting fresians go over 30 months given that most won't get bonus. During the summer fresians will gain weight cheaply. An extra 4-5 months should mean another 100 kg lw .

Think it's a case of have to in most cases.

Anto_Meath

Cavanjack wrote: »

Re the price of beef, stores are making great money. Ive seen good 2 year old Charolais bullocks making €1900 over the last week. This will encourage the suckler and store man for another while.

Looking at alright, my factory agent (who also buys store heifers for people) told me this evening store heifers were 20c / kg up in Carnaross today compared to a month ago.. I ve noticed that if beef prices increase then store prices seem to increase by even more..

Bass Reeves

Danzy wrote: »

Think it's a case of have to in most cases.

Even in that case returns can be very marginal. When friesian's get out beyond September they need ration and silage on grass to maintain weight. IMO they struggle to put on real condition and weight even on 4-5kgs of ration and access to grass and silage. Costs can be 2 euro/day to carry and if indoors they do little better and costs climb to beyond 3/day.

i have seen lads kill 24-26 month old Friesians out of sheds in April and May after eating 1-1.25 tons of ration over a winter. 30 month+ friesian weighting over 700kgs requires a lot of maintenance. Finish them by the end of September or let them roll over for another year

Cavanjack

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Even in that case returns can be very marginal. When friesian's get out beyond September they need ration and silage on grass to maintain weight. IMO they struggle to put on real condition and weight even on 4-5kgs of ration and access to grass and silage. Costs can be 2 euro/day to carry and if indoors they do little better and costs climb to beyond 3/day.

i have seen lads kill 24-26 month old Friesians out of sheds in April and May after eating 1-1.25 tons of ration over a winter. 30 month+ friesian weighting over 700kgs requires a lot of maintenance. Finish them by the end of September or let them roll over for another year

You are as well do them as bulls if finishing out of the shed.

Bass Reeves

Cavanjack wrote: »

You are as well do them as bulls if finishing out of the shed.

You are caught there as well as they have to be finished by 24 months. This bangs them right up against the majority of the cattle slaughtering period over the winter Feb/March when there is lots of cattle available as well. As the majority only grade O=/+ they can really be discounted at that time of year and can be 30-40c/kg below the base.

I see a few larger scale lads that finish them in November. They buy them in April/May grass them until August and feed them then for 100 days. But they tend to have understanding with the processors as to when these cattle are going to be taken.

Cavanjack

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You are caught there as well as they have to be finished by 24 months. This bangs them right up against the majority of the cattle slaughtering period over the winter Feb/March when there is lots of cattle available as well. As the majority only grade O=/+ they can really be discounted at that time of year and can be 30-40c/kg below the base.

I see a few larger scale lads that finish them in November. They buy them in April/May grass them until August and feed them then for 100 days. But they tend to have understanding with the processors as to when these cattle are going to be taken.

November not a great time either for friesian bulls for the normal joe as you have a lot of cattle coming off grass but as you say the bigger lad might have an agreement with factory.

Bass Reeves

Cavanjack wrote: »

November not a great time either for friesian bulls for the normal joe as you have a lot of cattle coming off grass but as you say the bigger lad might have an agreement with factory.

And I wouldn't do them either but I see two larger lads that do it. They also do the U16 month FR bull April/May.

weatherbyfoxer

did a batch of friesian bullocks off grass at 26-28 month off grass this summer,killed the last week of may for an average of €1480 and cost €900 to get there..probably the least amount of labour i had with a batch of cattle too.

Bass Reeves

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

did a batch of friesian bullocks off grass at 26-28 month off grass this summer,killed the last week of may for an average of €1480 and cost €900 to get there..probably the least amount of labour i had with a batch of cattle too.

They must have graded very well or got a very good flat price. Even at a flat price of 4.1 they averaged 360 kgs DW. Excellent performance. At 900 euro costs you are probably feeding a bit of ration during second winter. I be inclined to remove this as it has little benefit.

Well done it just shows all the negatively lads gave about dairyX stock is unfounded. If you had 40 of them in 60 acres you be netting 22k not a bad years work with BPS, ANC and a bit of GLAS you would be at 35k of an income it only a matter of sorting the tax then.

I know you would have a bust Feb-May with the calves and the finishing bullocks but it's well worth it.

According to an agent I was talking to he bought FR bullocks out of the shed in mid May they ate 300/ head and in ration alone. They only averaged 325DW. We can see who is the winner here

Easten

I done up some rough figures here, without paying myself a cent and I know theirs more costs involved.




https://ibb.co/TR23R3C

youllbemine

Easten wrote: »

I done up some rough figures here, without paying myself a cent and I know theirs more costs involved.




https://ibb.co/TR23R3C

Thanks for those figures. Very well broken down.

Looks like you're running approx 27 sucklers? For €4k profit. What would profits look like if you were to finish them yourself? FIL out of sucklers now but had 50 odd head and is now buying in weanlings to finish. Seems to get a nice turn out of them. Handy sfp and rents out a lot of ground yearly. So would imagine he's taking in a nice bit for the amount of input. And no late nights worrying about cows calving either...

Easten

youllbemine wrote: »

Thanks for those figures. Very well broken down.

Looks like you're running approx 27 sucklers? For €4k profit. What would profits look like if you were to finish them yourself? FIL out of sucklers now but had 50 odd head and is now buying in weanlings to finish. Seems to get a nice turn out of them. Handy sfp and rents out a lot of ground yearly. So would imagine he's taking in a nice bit for the amount of input. And no late nights worrying about cows calving either...

Not really an option for me, I haven't the sheds or land quality to do that. But what I do know is 80 euro a week for this system is a waste of time and effort. I do believe that if if I could somehow retain the sfp and just rent out the land or sell the silage I'd be money in.
Better still if the EU gave me the extra 80/week I'd leave the land fallow for them!!

Bass Reeves

Easten wrote: »

Not really an option for me, I haven't the sheds or land quality to do that. But what I do know is 80 euro a week for this system is a waste of time and effort. I do believe that if if I could somehow retain the sfp and just rent out the land or sell the silage I'd be money in.
Better still if the EU gave me the extra 80/week I'd leave the land fallow for them!!

Are the cows outwintered or have you cubicles for them

squinn2912

Just saw in the north that beef has gone up by 6p for prime beef and 10p for cows. This time last year prime beef was getting 38p less and cows 20p less. That would be letting you out as much as you’re depending on it to stick at that

squinn2912

squinn2912 wrote: »

Just saw in the north that beef has gone up by 6p for prime beef and 10p for cows. This time last year prime beef was getting 38p less and cows 20p less. That would be letting you out as much as you’re depending on it to stick at that

Hopefully the prices hold.

Looking at last year a U grade bullock that made 1700 odd will be up to around 2k in 2021

Cavanjack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hopefully the prices hold.

Looking at last year a U grade bullock that made 1700 odd will be up to around 2k in 2021

Killed bullocks this day last year at 380kg €3.60 base. They’d be up €230 at today’s prices.

Cavanjack

Cavanjack wrote: »

Killed bullocks this day last year at 380kg €3.60 base. They’d be up €230 at today’s prices.

Its a lot of money multiplied out over a load of 14 cattle hitting the factory.

epfff

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its a lot of money multiplied out over a load of 14 cattle hitting the factory.

It's costing a lot more to replace the cattle. I think I was better off last year with meal diesal and replacement cost increases. But price rise has psychological benefits

Cavanjack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its a lot of money multiplied out over a load of 14 cattle hitting the factory.

It is and would be closer to €300 more in heavy continental cattle.
I’ll be holding off buying stores this autumn if they are up €300 on last year.

minerleague

epfff wrote: »

It's costing a lot more to replace the cattle. I think I was better off last year with meal diesal and replacement cost increases. But price rise has psychological benefits

Thats always the problem for trading ( buying and selling) but it should be stable from year to year. Really notice as suckler farmer finishing all cattle when base price goes above £4/kg

Easten

See Larry Goodman had another great year in 2020 despite the pandemic his profits grew.
I used to be very skeptical of all those environmental schemes but if it puts money in my pocket then I'm in.
I really hope the new CAP goes down the lines of more of these schemes. As it stands suckler farmers have nothing to loose from the likes of these schemes.

Easten

Easten wrote: »

See Larry Goodman had another great year in 2020 despite the pandemic his profits grew.
I used to be very skeptical of all those environmental schemes but if it puts money in my pocket then I'm in.
I really hope the new CAP goes down the lines of more of these schemes. As it stands suckler farmers have nothing to loose from the likes of these schemes.

Teagasc is going down the "extensive suckler" farmer route now as well.

Is beef week on this year?

Easten

Taken from my estimates late last year

I think with diesel and fertilizer along with other commodities on the rise these figures are out of date even now.

I don't include cull or replacement costs as the Cull cow will pay for her replacement

Dinzee Conlee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118520549#Comment_118520549

Would you / will you you pack in the sucklers Eastern?

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118521110#Comment_118521110

Yes I'd pack it in. All it would take is 1 bad year to put me off it completely. I'm hanging in to see what comes of the new round of CAP. As it stands I get to keep the SFP, ANC and the payments from the Beep and BDGP but I reckon I could keep the SFP and ANC just by selling the silage/hay out of the place.

No real alternatives, as I haven't any experience in, or the appetite for the upfront Dairy costs to go milking cows

Sheep would be a no as well.

Buying stores to beef or calf to beef systems are worse than what I'm at.

I believe some form of Agroforesty-Organic system is the way to go but the Government have too many stupid rules in place.

It all boils down to the hopeless prices we get for some Weanlens and cattle in general. The consumer has gotten too used to really cheap food.

funkey_monkey

I do think organic will be the path to go in the near future. I think we might be getting a dry run this year with the cost of fertiliser.

We might be looking to reduce stock, grow silage for sale and reduce fertiliser usage.

Problem with grants is that some come with so many conditions it is barely worthwhile applying. We are in NI so waiting to see where things lie. Missed one for hedge laying, but will see what the future brings for us.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118521309#Comment_118521309

Is there a margin in selling grass for silage or selling bales of hay or silage?