Margins from suckler beef

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118520549#Comment_118520549

Its just shows the crazyness of the cost of suckler cows. You neither have turnover nor sales numbers to defray costs. Looking at your figures a cow is eating 9.5/bales during the winter and another bale for each weanling. This year I will probably over winter stores with about 3.3 bales/head. Other winters it's not much over 4/head. At those figures I am wintering 2.5-2.8 stores for each cow/calf unit. You are trying to defray costsover too few animals. Aswell the extra costs with sucklers is killing the business. Replacement, vet, tagging, straw, bull and empty dead cow/calf are adding 180-200/unit that is not there with stores.

my dosing cost would be around 7.5/head ( and I do stores for IBR) and vet would be less than 10/head. I actually think you are underestimating grass costs. For a 25 cow suckler herd 2500 in grass costs seems low. I allow 100/unit and have 60-65 bullocks on 24 HA going in on the BPS. My fixed costs would be no higher than your but diving it over 61 bullocks instead of 26 cow puts it at 73 euro. Your mortality(and empty) costs are running at 3-4 times a store to finishing system and thebull replacement costs is not in existance in a store system.

Buying stores to beef or calf to beef systems are worse than what I'm at.

I have to disagree with this. Some raw data from this year.

Average sale price 1292/head

Average purchase price in 2020 =605/head

average replacement in 2021 =637/head

This gives me an average gross margin of 655/head and a net margin of 305 off replacement cost

Ration approx 50/head

Fertlizer was <50/head

Slurry 26/head

I cost grass at 100/head or over 6k/year. However this covers fertlizer costs, fencing hedgecutting, topping, reseeding( have done none in 4-5 yeras) spraying etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118521628#Comment_118521628

The secret to making money out of suckler cows is keep the calves to beef and only have handy sized cows.

Feed efficient stock are the key. I’d say my average animal will consume about 3 bales over the winter. That’s a mix of yearlings, calves and cows. But I’d be housing in late November and out in early March

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118521602#Comment_118521602

No as ver fe will pay you much beyond 25/bale for silage and often a good bit less.

Silage cost and I am assuming 18-6-12 is 450/ton spreading 5 bags/acre and you are cutting 10 bales/acre.

Wrap 3/bale

Contractor 10/bale

Drawing in yourself 1/bale

Fertlizer 11.25/bale.

That is over 25/bale. I have not allowed for lime or other costs

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118521659#Comment_118521659

Even at that you do not have numbers to make a margin. If you keep weanling to finish your numbers drop. You would be dropping a cow for every 2-3 weanlings you carried onto finish.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118521694#Comment_118521694

It depends on the quality of stock and the price going. I’d be keeping over 50 cows.

My point is that biggest cost in beef farming is feeding silage or meal. Feed efficient stock are the key.

There is money to be made in sucklers but only on feed efficient stock.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118521742#Comment_118521742

Need to be producing good quality calves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118521796#Comment_118521796

Exactly, but out of handy sized cows

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118521742#Comment_118521742

In theory yes, But you are still limited by volume produced. Efficient cattle seem good in theory, however you are limited by volume. At best any Suckler unit store to beef need the same amount of ground as 2.5 stores maybe above 3 depending on the way the system is run.

More and more the higher priced and bonus scheme's are limiting weight to below 370/380 kgs DW, AA, HE, Glanbia/ Kepak, Foyle meats all have it and I expect the new ABP scheme will as well.

That means that even at 4.5/ kg total price carcass value is more or less maxed at an average of 1600/ head for steers. Heifers would be 100-200 less.

I am not sure about your land area but even if you slaughter at sub 2 years the max you can run not in a derogation is 1.1 units/ HA.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118523480#Comment_118523480

I would be running an extensive system. I think that’s another key to keeping costs down in relation to fertiliser, meal and later housing.

Its often said that a ewe / cow’s biggest enemy is another ewe or cow.

Lighter cows are cheaper to winter and need less grass over the summer.

I think there is scope to rear your own stock and buy a few in.

Im not a big fan of the mart but if you can get someone to buy cattle and deliver them then it’s a good system.

2021 was a good year price wise. If buying in cattle to finish I would buy plain stock and let them run in this extensive system.

Compare to 2020. Good r3 cattle were making 70 cent less a kilo.

370 or 380 kg is a serious weight for an AA or a HE. If they are the limits it seems fair enough. Continental cattle would come in to bigger weights than that.

Bass Reeves

You will never get value buying cattle unless you do it yourself. Every year I end up with a few super cheap cattle. A dealer will often bid on cattle that he bought to the mart that day for a farmer and push them.on.

The 370/380 limit is accross a cattle. Most AA/HE hang under 350 and some below 300 kgs. The spec I'd to fill the UK trade spec.

Factories find too much resistance to the upper weight limit so it's easier to pay a bonus for under 370 kgs.

Yes they can manage a certain amount of heavy cattle for certain markets but it's the UK market they concentrate on especially the big three. I expect Dawn to bring out a similar scheme within 3-6 months and Kepak/ Glanbis to reconfigure there's.

When this comes in if you have heavy cattle unless they are stuck for cattle you are looking at some hit. Especially if you are a smaller producer.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525059#Comment_118525059

The weight limit will the final knife in the suckler I think. It’s the weight of the continental cattle often over 500kg and that leaves the profit. If you take 100kg off it then that’s circa €450 including bonus. That’s a huge loss as it covers a lot of the cost of keeping the cow.

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118523842#Comment_118523842

I'm moving away from bigger Suckler cows. I used to run Simmentles and cross Charolais type cows. I found as the cows age they went into huge weights and were harder to feed. A 900kg suckler cow will do some damage to the ground come the month of October or even during a wet summer. Current replacements are FR X WH and FR X Lim. They are a smaller cow, have loads of milk and still produce a good calf.

I'm moving up to 35 Cows this spring, running 1 Bull with them and a bit of AI so the extra numbers should pull down the cost/cow but I still need the sale price of the Weanlens to be averaging at least 1200 to make it worth while. I think the next 12-18 months will decide the future of Sucklers in Ireland

mr.stonewall

Current price inflation is going to hit very hard on a low margin business. It's really going to highlight the dilution of SFP. This will make loss making farming worse

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525059#Comment_118525059

The point remains that feed efficient cattle in an extensive system are the way to go as it keeps costs down.

Even the winners in beef don’t win by much. It was said years ago if you made 100 on an animal you bought and finished you were doing well.

My aim is keep costs and labour down. Do a good job on silage, animal welfare/health, breeding and use grass well.

370 kg is a serious size of an animal. I hear a lot of fellows finishing Angus cattle out of sucklers hitting that weight off grass.

The days of the big tanks of cows are numbered. You often hear fellows calving heifers at 30 months. Get them calved at 24 months or forget it.

To succeed at buying and finishing cattle you need to be going to the mart every week or have someone that does.

Easten

It's all boiling down to costs & reward verses effort. The price of beef in the Supermarket has doubled over the last 20 years while at the same time the price at the farm gate has stayed stagnant. For me it would be totally unacceptable to be digging into the SFP to keep the farm going. You would be better off shutting down everything to the bare minimum to collect the payments rather than produce cheap Beef for Larry, Lidl and Co.

funkey_monkey

Would suckler farmers be better off keeping a few less cows and running the better/suitable calves the full way to beef and cut losses on the poorer ones as and when it becomes a problem?

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526726#Comment_118526726

I think it was mentioned here before, €900 is the cut of price for a weanling for bull beef and I think less for steer. I know there’s always rumours of the weanling export been on its last leg but it’s the best market

funkey_monkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526767#Comment_118526767

Might have been me asking it previously...!🙄

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525453#Comment_118525453

1200/ head is unrealistic for weanlings even for export and that is unlikely off LM and HE off dairy stock.. Maybe for 400kg+ yearlings is a possibility however you would want to be top notch to average it accross heifers and bullocks.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526726#Comment_118526726

With the new scheme from ABP for 24 month average age cattle. HE and AA bred by a good bull off good sized cows would come into play. Killing Heifers at 20-22 months and bullocks at 24-28 months you should definitely not be dipping into your sfp. You could make it a low cost system. Heifers Killing 300 kgs coming into 1300 euro and bullocks hanging 350 coming into 1600 euro.

You would want good cows.

MIKEKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118523842#Comment_118523842

Why would getting someone to buy for you be a good thing ? A lot of these guys buying for others know the sellers so push them on. Collect a few euro from both sides. As Bass said you need to buy your own.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527191#Comment_118527191

Would have to as I am working

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527204#Comment_118527204

Online is a great way now. Watching at lunch time, spending a while on a Saturday. There is s few sales that chug along I to the evening. Nobody will buy value for you except yourself. I pick up 8-20 exceptional vale bullocks every year. These are the ones that pull your average margin way.

No buyer is going to hand you over an animal that has a 7-800 euro gross margin on him. He hand you over the 4-500 euro or less margin cattle and a few expensive ones as well.

You might as well not buy unless you are buying yourself.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527254#Comment_118527254

I’d be buying small numbers so it’s handy for me to have someone buy them.

Id be looking to buy at around the 700 mark.

That way even in a bad year there would be a margin in the stock.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527269#Comment_118527269

If you are going to get someone to buy for you pick up bucket fed weanlings in the autumn. You will seldom get robbed buying them. Carry to finish or sell when they are two year olds. there are plenty of lads that will pay well for raw two year old cattle every spring. I be a inclined to carry to finish

Cavanjack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527254#Comment_118527254

Could agree more. You’ll not make too much getting a dealer to buy for you unless he is family and even at that I’d be weary.

They’ll keep the good value ones for themselves or their mates. They’ll over pay for their mates cattle then and tell you that was the price of them.

I’m killing bulls since Christmas and many are leaving a gross margin of above 1200 and I don’t have them a year. Only I put the time in picking them up in marts last spring I’d have nowhere near that.

If you’ve only a few to buy try private. Ask local farmers or keep an eye on dd and you might get lucky.

jfh

I've been breeding those smaller type cows for the last few years and there's no way you'd get anywhere near 1000 for the weanlings, they just don't have the quality, smaller milky cows are fine if you are finishing, I sold the last of my giant ch cows last year, according to icbf she was one star but her last progeny came into 2225, that was at least 400 more than any of 5 star smaller dairy xcross breeds, there's a few lads going in the opposite direction, breeding beefy heifers and calving over 30 months and doing alright out of it, know you won't have the same output, but crazy prices been paid for those quality heifers and doesn't look like stopping anytime soon

Anto_Meath

There is a local lad here that buys cattle for lads, he is a good honest man and there would be no messing with him, he is €10 a head to buy or sell cattle for you. He buys good cattle and he is fine a year like last year. But any year things are tight he tends to loose a few clients. He is notorious for says "ah you couldn't leave him behind for €20" as they say he doesnt feel the pain when his hand is in someone else's pocket. A friend of mine took over his late dad's farm, they would buys 20 bullocks every year and the first year he ask this chap to pick them up for him as he used to buy for his dad, he could only afford 19 that year. The following year my friend asked me to buy them for him. I said I wouldnt but he could come with me & I would give him a hand. He done 4 marts with me for the 20 cattle & enjoyed it plus made a few pound, 1 blue bullock he picked himself left a gross margin of €600 for the summer. He is now buying stronger, shorter keep cattle and probably turning over 40 / 50 a year and very happy at it. If you can't buy your own cattle I think you are wasting time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528014#Comment_118528014

How old were the progeny though?

My idea of good suckler cow is a handy sized cow with plenty of milk.

I got bullocks off them away at 25 months last year at over 1900 with little or no meal.

You are right though. They won’t make as much as weanlings so need to be kept to beef.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530050#Comment_118530050

As your keeping them the whole way, when do you castrate?

Heard of a guy that squeezes the bulls in September, leaving on the cows till housing

A few months old.

I think hex are a good option as a suckler as they seem to grade better than the other dairy crosses and have plenty of milk.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118531239#Comment_118531239

A good cross to BB, LM, CH & BA

Easten

WH X are my favorite.

Very Quiet Healthy type Cows, easy fed, loads of milk for the calf, no trouble calving, good square cows with plenty room for the calf like a double decker bus.

They will winter outside on half a square bake of hay per day Hail, Rail, Wind,Sun or Snow no bother to them

patsy_mccabe

Whitehead cross cows will also eat less over the winter. They have a layer of subcutaneous fat that other breeds don't have that keep them warm.

Packrat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118531800#Comment_118531800

I found I got less for their LM X calves than the ones out of Shorthorns or part LM cows.

I was always a fan of the black whiteheads, but they're not the same today out of mostly Holstein cows as they were in the past.

It all moot for me anyway as I'm gone over to Dexters and planning to keep on and finish the calves.

Plenty demand for Dexter bullocks fit for the knife at about 28 months.

Heifers for people with smaller freezers.

jfh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530050#Comment_118530050

Yes the ones of the dairy cross do finish a bit earlier, Bullock I mentioned was just under 30 months

jfh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118532574#Comment_118532574

I'd like to pick up a dexter heifer for the freezer myself

Packrat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118532923#Comment_118532923

I bought a bullock there before Christmas because I'll have nothing ready myself until late 22

He hung around 200kg and cost 850 plus 375 for the butcher.

I got 125kgs of meat back so about 10 a kilo it cost me. Not nothing by any means but the beef is outstanding.

Anto_Meath

I like the BWH cows meself as they are quite with plenty of milk to feed their calf into a good weigh. The two problems I do find with them is their spins can be soft and can be cut handy enough by a strong calf suckling on them. Second issue is the colour of calf they bring, ifs black then demand in the mart wouldn't be as good as for similar quality red cattle or if a brown CH then it will be well back too.

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533456#Comment_118533456

Yeah the mouse colored Charolais pegs them back. idk why because I've had some savage big strong mouse colored Charolais in the past. They were bigger heavier and thrived better, yet were not fancied in the mart like the White or golden brown ones

Week old calf off WHX cow

Another mouse Charolais born last night off a WHX cow

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118571351#Comment_118571351

Same with the black limo v red limo.

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118571351#Comment_118571351

Either you are a fair blocklayer Easten or you have a good one in the locality looking at that wall.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118572579#Comment_118572579

I was thinking the same thing. Lol.they are well done.

Anto_Meath

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118571351#Comment_118571351

That is a fine calf Easten, good square back on him & by the look of her she could have him into over 500 KGS by October. Best of luck with them.

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118572691#Comment_118572691

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118572579#Comment_118572579

Thanks, fine calves alright, idk if 500kg is possible at less than a year old but it'll be interesting to see how they perform. Cows have huge bag of milk so they should have no excuses. Out of all the Breeds I find the Charolais calves can easily loose there color to the Mother even though the calf would be a mighty yolk they could be a white head or even Frisian style grey markings. The limousines are a bit more consistent color wise.

The old lad was a Blocklayer, I done a good bit of it too when I was younger during college and a few months on and off during the celtic tiger when I was between Jobs. Like anything if you set them out right and take your time you can do a good job, but I wouldn't fancy it full time as it's very tough back crippling work