The Irish Problem of Cohesion: When solidarity becomes groupthink

23-06-2021 2:12pm #1

We have the good fortune to live in, arguably, one of the most successful and cohesive states in Europe. There is no serious class-antagonism like that which observed in England, Belgium or France.
We are prosperous, unlike other socially-cohesive countries in the Mediterranean and eastern bloc.
In some ways, we have a lot to be happy about. Irish social cohesion is an undeniable fact.

We have probably always been cohesive. We were cohesive when the nuns and the priests were running the show; we were cohesive when the banks replaced them.

Does our social cohesion give rise to groupthink, is it stagnant?

I was listening to David Quinn, of all people, on a podcast where he was harking on about Irish groupthink; saying it's been the same old story from the Catholic era to the so-called "woke" generation. Now, I dislike that man too, but he has a point.

Our society is so cohesive, that any disruptive ideas are immediately rubbished, or repudiated. There is a certain unwillingness to engage in debate about fundamental change, which is why we have neither socialists nor libertarians.

Sometimes we are a country of unimaginative, unintelligent centrists. Too afraid to rock the boat.

Wanderer78 · 23-06-2021 2:18pm

Splitting is beginning to occur, I think this will be shown even more so during the next ge, we have followed the group down the wrong road, resulting in the same divisons as other countries, the next ge will be a blood bath

23-06-2021 2:22pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Splitting is beginning to occur, I think this will be shown even more so during the next ge, we have followed the group down the wrong road, resulting in the same divisons as other countries, the next ge will be a blood bath

I hear this a lot, and I wish I could share those people's optimism.

This country had a housing crisis in the 1960's, which was even more devastating than anything we witness today. Nothing came of it, because nobody could generate a protest.

The people are just so ingrained in their communities that they cannot, or will not, protest against their neighbour.

"Ingrained" would be a better word than cohesive, probably. People are so absorbed in the status-quo that they will never challenge it.

Wanderer78 · 23-06-2021 2:30pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote:

"Ingrained" would be a better word than cohesive, probably. People are so absorbed in the status-quo that they will never challenge it.

Oh I strongly disagree, there's astonishing anger over housing, what's currently proposed won't work, so by the time the ge comes around......

We re now in a situation that many parents, grandparents, uncles and aunts realise their nearest and dearest are in serious trouble regarding this, ffg are in serious trouble. it ll be a sf lead government, and it ll be a strong win to, ffg are defaulting to what they know best, a fire sector lead approach, and it won't work, it ll just make the situation far worse, resulting in their falling, you can see it a mile off, and disturbingly, they can't.

Brussels Sprout · 24-06-2021 10:48am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I was listening to David Quinn, of all people, on a podcast where he was harking on about Irish groupthink; saying it's been the same old story from the Catholic era to the so-called "woke" generation. Now, I dislike that man too, but he has a point.

Our society is so cohesive, that any disruptive ideas are immediately rubbished, or repudiated. There is a certain unwillingness to engage in debate about fundamental change, which is why we have neither socialists nor libertarians.

Sometimes we are a country of unimaginative, unintelligent centrists. Too afraid to rock the boat.

This all seems backwards to me. The likes of David Quinn, or anyone else who uses the terms "woke" or "groupthink", are almost always former centrists themselves, who have not moved with the times and are feeling discombobulated.

They aren't disruptive. They're the opposite. They're the ones who opposed the disruptive forces and are now relics as the Overton Window has shifted leaving them outside and wondering "What happened to society?", "Why can't I get away with saying this anymore?", "Why am I no longer shown respect for doing X when I was before?"

It's practically why it's always conservatives who use those terms. They knew the world as being one way but now it's another. They're confused, angry and scared and they're blaming the rest of society for making everything worse, as they see it. They resisted those changes but they lost the battle. Rather then examine why it is that things changed they prefer to instead lash out, presumably because it is easier to do that than to engage in some self-reflection. There's an entire media universe that will help them fan those flames too and keep them from asking why things have changed.

David Quinn is on the outside looking in now and he hates it. It's easy for him to castigate those inside than it is for him to ask how he ended up outside.

If we go back 40 years in Ireland homosexual acts were illegal, divorce was illegal, abortion was illegal, marital rape was seen as an oxymoron and the Catholic Church ruled the roost. Changes to any of the above would have been seen as disruptive ideas and yet one by one they fell. Through our liberal use of referenda it's actually easier to enact change here than in a lot of western countries.

24-06-2021 3:19pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Sometimes we are a country of unimaginative, unintelligent centrists. Too afraid to rock the boat.

It's a Catch-22: stability or susceptibility to populism.

Populism per se is not a bad thing, even though it has (in my view) attracted an undeserved negative connotation. It depends what you mean by populism and the nature of the policy being advanced. Dismissing a policy on the basis of it being by definition "populist" is nothing more than lazy thinking. For instance, those who opted to Brexit in the UK were clearly following what would be called a populist path, but that doesn't invalidate or undermine their decision. In fact, many would argue, post facto, that it was a decision taken ahead of its time (depending on your political persuasion, of course).

Brexit could never happen in Ireland, for the reasons you have outlined. We are a tamed, pacified nation. If the EU were a classroom, Ireland would be the prefect - always nodding our heads, "doing the right thing" (which is code for following other people's orders), and generally following rather than leading. The same is true of the COVID-19 response. There is such an outlandish fear among the unimaginative, terrified bureaucracy in government, that any idea of rocking the boat, or "doing a Sweden", would be unimaginable.

Things were far more creative and imaginative from the early 1960s onward. Indeed, those days were far more challenging than any challenge we face today. Of course, the vocabulary has changed too. What would have been a mere "challenge" in the 1960s is known as a "crisis" today. But at least many of the leaders then were not as supine as the ones that gather in government buildings today.

What changed?

I'm not sure. Perhaps the trauma of The Troubles had something to do with it. Perhaps the parochial nature of our society, held together by the jaws of the Catholic Church. They had the power, we simply followed suit - again, tamed by authority.

Things do appear to be un-weaving at the seams, though. Whether that turns out to be a good thing is an altogether different question. As I alluded to earlier, populism per se is not a bad thing.

Manach · 24-06-2021 7:02pm

As a Conservative and knowing history, it goes beyond saying there has been significant change in Irish society that is ni'gh unprecedented in the annals of the nation. However, for Ireland to remain a national polity there has to be some form of unity and iso n one sense solidarity is a plus. However, for the progressives are now putting their faith instead of religion into the secular doctrine of the day while traditionalists (for want of a better word) care not a whit for the newly minted shiboleths is being undermined. The ancient Greeks has a word, statis, meaning that when the bonds that tie a community are loosened then civic solidarity breaks into camps with the fracturing of that polity. Now that the government has seen how easily it can revoke fundamental rights, without hardly a murmur of protest from societal partners, then it will be interesting to see if the counter-reaction when it comes rocks or sinks the boat.

24-06-2021 7:28pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

David Quinn is on the outside looking in now and he hates it. It's easy for him to castigate those inside than it is for him to ask how he ended up outside.

Do you know that logical fallacy, the appeal to hypocrisy, aka 'tu quoques'?

I think it applies here. Yes, Quinn's words ring hollow, but his beliefs do not detract from the fundamental point. We are such an integrated society, that fledgling disruptive moveents can never succeed. Anything confrontational is rejected.

That's been the general theme of the state since independence, whether the prevailing narrative was religious, nationalist, or liberal. Maybe it will change as we become increasingly urbanised.

I've been using words like 'cohesion' and 'ingrained' to describe Irish society, and 'insular' would be another one. I think it all boils down to never wanting to piss-off the neighbours.
That makes for a peaceful society, but it also promotes groupthink. It's not a particularly constructive outlook.

Hodors Appletart · 25-06-2021 8:09am

This suggestion seems so far off the wall to me as to be almost ridiculous.

Have you missed the three big societal changes that the people have voted for here in the last few years, namely the legalisation of abortion, SSM and to a lesser degree the allowing of divorce.

We have a functioning albeit very disruptive trade union system in place for the public sector where teachers, guards, nurses regularly threaten to, or actually do go out on strike.

I get that there are other scocietal ills, most especially around housing/rental but Ireland is far from unique in that regard - the Swedish government has just fallen because of it and a plethora of cities in other western democracies are facing similar or worse issues in that regard - the thing is though, Ireland hasn't yet reached a critical mass of affected people and the majority hasn't deemed it a big enough issue (yet, I might add. I think the next election will see a change there, but that's at least 3 years away).

But to take another example, look at the water charge debacle. A critical mass of people protested and got that changed.

I wholly disagree with your argument, and I think it may somewhat stem from your own, or someone close to you, personal circumstance.

25-06-2021 6:43pm

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

This suggestion seems so far off the wall to me as to be almost ridiculous.

Have you missed the three big societal changes that the people have voted for here in the last few years, namely the legalisation of abortion, SSM and to a lesser degree the allowing of divorce.

I wouldn't call any of those movements disruptive. They were long overdue. Disgracefully overdue, even.

Ireland was late to modernise on all 3 examples, especially abortion and divorce.

That's partly because of our unusual constitutional arrangement, but if the public mood was faster to change, constitutional amendment wouldn't have moved at such a snail's pace.

We probably have the weather to thank for the success of the divorce referendum.

Gbear · 28-06-2021 2:53pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I wouldn't call any of those movements disruptive. They were long overdue. Disgracefully overdue, even.

Ireland was late to modernise on all 3 examples, especially abortion and divorce.

That's partly because of our unusual constitutional arrangement, but if the public mood was faster to change, constitutional amendment wouldn't have moved at such a snail's pace.

We probably have the weather to thank for the success of the divorce referendum.

On this point, I think there's some merit. I think the momentum held by FF and FG created an unusually static political environment for an extended period of time. It seems fairly unusual that you'd have such a dominant duopoly in a multi-party proportional system. I think those entrenchments are starting to fray a bit, with SF creating another pole in politics. With this in mind, it's plausible that there was a bit of foot-dragging by a political establishment that took votes for granted and was afraid of tackling big issues.

With that said, Ireland was an extremely conservative country until quite recently, and still is in many ways.
The 8th Amendment was passed with a huge majority in 1983.
A more restrictive stance on abortion was introduced and only defeated very narrowly as recently as 2002.

There has been a huge change in Irish culture in my lifetime (I'm 31). Increases in wealth, internationalism and education have, IMO, massively accelerated the progression of Irish society. It's only natural that as you shift away from conservative, hierarchical society to a more independent progressive one, you're more likely to make significant changes.

28-06-2021 9:11pm

Gbear wrote: »

With that said, Ireland was an extremely conservative country until quite recently, and still is in many ways.

Why was it (or why it might still be) conservative?

I am blaming (blaming is the wrong word) rural cohesion and an insular 'outlook' which naturally followed, but what caused it?

I'm not interested in blaming the RC Church here, as I come from a different flavour, and we were exactly the same. There is something in contemporary Irish history, say from 1870 onwards, which just detests disruptive movements until they must eventually be confronted.

If you look across Europe, minorities and minor political groups were typically able to express their opposition to the status-quo far more freely.

It must have something to do with the fact we didn't have an industrial revolution, and were slow to urbanise. In hindsight, this might be question for the historians.

sameoldname · 28-06-2021 10:23pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Why was it (or why it might still be) conservative?

I am blaming (blaming is the wrong word) rural cohesion and an insular 'outlook' which naturally followed, but what caused it?

I'm not interested in blaming the RC Church here, as I come from a different flavour, and we were exactly the same. There is something in contemporary Irish history, say from 1870 onwards, which just detests disruptive movements until they must eventually be confronted.

If you look across Europe, minorities and minor political groups were typically able to express their opposition to the status-quo far more freely.

It must have something to do with the fact we didn't have an industrial revolution, and were slow to urbanise. In hindsight, this might be question for the historians.

Ireland was a poor country but with a generally well educated population. The well educated tended to leave the country and take their progressive ideas with them. Once Ireland started to become wealthy the well educated stayed and some of those that had left returned home and thus the country became more progressive. You see similar in Poland and the like. It will be interesting to see what happens there as the economy continues to improve.

One possible explanation perhaps?

Peregrinus · 29-06-2021 5:48am

Is there evidence that the better-educated were more prone to emigrate? Certainly the stereotype of the Irish emigrant for most of the period we are speaking of is a man of limited education who will work as a navvy or in some other unskilled occupation. Obviously that wasn't everybody — the Irish nurse was another stereotype — but I do question the suggestion that emigrants were, on average, better educated than those who stayed at home.

listermint · 29-06-2021 3:10pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Is there evidence that the better-educated were more prone to emigrate? Certainly the stereotype of the Irish emigrant for most of the period we are speaking of is a man of limited education who will work as a navvy or in some other unskilled occupation. Obviously that wasn't everybody — the Irish nurse was another stereotype — but I do question the suggestion that emigrants were, on average, better educated than those who stayed at home.

I honestly think that's emigrant think and doesn't actually play out in reality. There's ample talent based in various multinationals here with Irish people heading up entire European divisions within huge world wide companies.

The vast majority of emigrants from the island would have lower salary range employment opportunities at destination.

So tbh it's a bit of a nonsense.

29-06-2021 3:39pm

Ireland, and other Northern European countries, tend to be shame or guilt cultures. Ireland tends more towards shame and ostracisation, rather than guilt which is internal. This precedes Catholicism in my view, and I mean all the way back to Brehon law which was very much a shame culture.

It was shameful to criticise the Catholic Church in Public a few years ago, and probably shameful to be less than full woke today.

We need to qualify "in public" here. It doesn't mean at the pub, or online, but someone on a plinth, or a newspaper article. Im sure that priests and bishops got a hammering in private conversations, or even in pubs which are fairly public, back in the day. Just not anywhere where it might make a difference.

listermint · 29-06-2021 3:55pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ireland, and other Northern European countries, tend to be shame of guilt cultures. Ireland tends more towards shame and ostracisation, rather than guilt which is internal. This precedes Catholicism in my view, and I mean all the way back to Brehon law which is very much a shame culture.

It was shameful to criticise the Catholic Church in Public a few years ago, and probably shameful to be less than full woke today.

We need to qualify "in public" here. It doesn't mean at the pub, or online, but someone on a plinth, or a newspaper article. Im sure that priests and bishops got a hammering in private conversations, or even in pubs which are fairly public, back in the day. Just not anywhere where it might make a difference.

Genuinely read this twice and I'm still unsure of the point you are trying to portray ?

29-06-2021 4:41pm

listermint wrote: »

Genuinely read this twice and I'm still unsure of the point you are trying to portray ?

And I’ve read your rebuttal once and am unsure what problems you have with my post. Since you haven’t really specified any.

sameoldname · 29-06-2021 5:35pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Is there evidence that the better-educated were more prone to emigrate? Certainly the stereotype of the Irish emigrant for most of the period we are speaking of is a man of limited education who will work as a navvy or in some other unskilled occupation. Obviously that wasn't everybody — the Irish nurse was another stereotype — but I do question the suggestion that emigrants were, on average, better educated than those who stayed at home.

To be fair, it is pure supposition on my part. Whilst I was born in the 80's I don't remember any of it but I can remember the early 90's and the optimism that was everywhere at that time even though the wealth hadn't filtered down completely.

The 09 recession it was certainly true in my experience that the highly educated tended to stay but the people I know tend to be concentrated in the IT field so I'm not sure if that was true for all other sectors.

sameoldname · 29-06-2021 5:39pm

listermint wrote: »

I honestly think that's emigrant think and doesn't actually play out in reality. There's ample talent based in various multinationals here with Irish people heading up entire European divisions within huge world wide companies.

The vast majority of emigrants from the island would have lower salary range employment opportunities at destination.

So tbh it's a bit of a nonsense.

I'm not sure if you're talking about my post here and apologies if you aren't but I'm only talking about Ireland up until the 1980's and certainly don't take it that I'm presenting my post as fact, it's only a hypothesis and a very broad and partial one at that.

listermint · 29-06-2021 5:49pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And I’ve read your rebuttal once and am unsure what problems you have with my post. Since you haven’t really specified any.

I don't have problems with it other than I haven't a clue what it's trying to convey ?

29-06-2021 11:44pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Is there evidence that the better-educated were more prone to emigrate?

I'm not aware of any proof, and there probably isn't any since records of educational attainment weren't collated until well into the 20th century. Whatever records do exist are disparate, and impossible to rely upon.

Having said that, it stands to reason. If this person is talking about emigration to America, it's generally accepted that the poorest people in Irish society were typically unable to emigrate to the United States, or at least until the late 19th century. It follows that the families who could afford to emigrate a child were also able to maintain children in schools, instead of using them as agricultural labourers or having them go out and work as such.

Emigration to England probably wasn't even affordable to the poorest people, who lived hand-to-mouth during the height of Irish emigration. I think it's reasonably fair to deduce that the lower-middle class (by the standards of the time) were most likely to emigrate and also most likely to have better education than their peers.

As for hard evidence, there is probably none.

Peregrinus · 30-06-2021 2:27am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm not aware of any proof, and there probably isn't any since records of educational attainment weren't collated until well into the 20th century. Whatever records do exist are disparate, and impossible to rely upon.

Having said that, it stands to reason. If this person is talking about emigration to America, it's generally accepted that the poorest people in Irish society were typically unable to emigrate to the United States, or at least until the late 19th century. It follows that the families who could afford to emigrate a child were also able to maintain children in schools, instead of using them as agricultural labourers or having them go out and work as such.

Emigration to England probably wasn't even affordable to the poorest people, who lived hand-to-mouth during the height of Irish emigration. I think it's reasonably fair to deduce that the lower-middle class (by the standards of the time) were most likely to emigrate and also most likely to have better education than their peers.

As for hard evidence, there is probably none.

If we're talking about emigration as a "brain-drain" that alters the intellectual climate of the country, making in less progressive, we are necessarily talking about emigration on a large scale which, in the Irish context, means from the famine onwards. And this is definitely a time when emigration was available to the very poorest - it was the resort of the dispossessed, of landless labourers, and of people who saw no promising future in the place they lived because of its grinding poverty. And I'm not just talking about Ireland here - the US had waves of migrants from Germany, from Scandinavia, from what is now Poland/Ukraine, all fitting this description. The coming of the railways and of steamships saw transport costs drop hugely in the second half of the nineteenth century, leading to the first wave of globalisation. Among other things, this meant very affordable emigration.

The people who were less likely to emigrate were those who had some stake at at home - a trade or qualification that they could exploit, a tenancy on a farm that they held or, at least, hoped to inherit, some social capital that could be leveraged. Or, if you were a younger son and wouldn't inherit the farm/shop/whatever, you would move to Dublin or Cork and maybe take a clerical job or train as a teacher - that at least preserved your social capital and give you some chance of exploiting it, in a way that you probably couldn't in New York or London.

The Irish emigrant as a navvy is a stereotype. But the main reason stereotypes get to be stereotypes is because there is a large measure of truth behind them.

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 30-06-2021 2:48am

I think many of these observations ignore a huge factor in Irish politics - the PR-STV electoral system and the multi seat constituency.

We’ve one of the longest established, continuous PR democracies in the world and for just over a century at this stage we have been using one of the most unusual forms of proportional representation.

The Irish system isn’t about polarised politics, rather it’s usually about finding consensus and people are expressing their political opinions in ranked choice ballots.

My view of Ireland is that there’s a requirement to find a consensus position and that point moves around with social change. Rather than seeing power pendulums swinging left and right, as you typically see in countries with simple majority systems, Irish politics is more about this centre that drifts.

Ideas from the outlying voices also tend to get absorbed into the centre. They have power to nudge it and that’s probably why you don’t see aggressive opposition.

Even at constituency level you’ve multiple TDs representing the same area. The result of that is there’s never a winner takes all and there’s a requirement to work across parties on local issues, as the constituency interests may end up aligning in ways that aren’t about political parties.

I think the result of it we have an increasingly weak party system and a style of politics that has to be quite pragmatic, not very ideological and that is willing to compromise.

If you go out on a moral high horse or some ideological crusade, you can’t really play ball and your power diminishes. The most powerful minority voices tend to be the ones who are able to play the game and nudge the centre more towards their objectives.

It’s an unusual system and I think sometimes we underestimate just how different it is to many other anglophone countries and the level of impact that has on political culture, public discourse, governance and how we make policy.

vladmydad · 30-06-2021 3:17am

It’s tiring to have to say this over and over again but there are no differences between the major parties in the Daíl. EU, lgbt, abortion, Brexit, Trump, Immigration, Climate change, HSE, Education, Transport, Agriculture, Fisheries, even taxes. Hell even housing policy is similar “build more”. The Daíl is the definition of groupthink. Just look at our main opposition party SF, they agree with everything the government has done on Covid except they want it done harder. There is one dominant Internationalist leftist ideology that all parties are fully signed up to.

Peregrinus · 30-06-2021 3:30am

vladmydad wrote: »

It’s tiring to have to say this over and over again but there are no differences between the major parties in the Daíl. EU, lgbt, abortion, Brexit, Trump, Immigration, Climate change, HSE, Education, Transport, Agriculture, Fisheries, even taxes. Hell even housing policy is similar “build more”. The Daíl is the definition of groupthink. Just look at our main opposition party SF, they agree with everything the government has done on Covid except they want it done harder. There is one dominant Internationalist leftist right of centre ideology that all parties are fully signed up to.

Fixed that for you. From an international perspective, Ireland is striking in being characterised by an unbroken succession of right-of-centre governments.

Jim2007 · 30-06-2021 8:09am

It’s an unusual system and I think sometimes we underestimate just how different it is to many other anglophone countries and the level of impact that has on political culture, public discourse, governance and how we make policy.

In other words, we’re Switzerland. And being a citizen of both and having worked on political campaigns in both I’d say the thinking is very much the same. To the best of my knowledge they are the only countries in Europe at least with a Sovereign People, although Ireland is stricter in that the constitution provides no circumstances in which parliament can ignore the outcome of a referendum.

The environment produces a different type of voter, one who thinks on two levels - strategic: how I want the country run in the long term and tactical: who do I want to run the country in the short term. That means the questions are different, the sources of information relied on are different and voters are comfortable with voting the party line on one matter and against the party on another, even on the same day.

It also produces a different kind of politician, one who knows there are limits to their powers, where by you can’t make the big strategic decisions without bringing not only the party, but a large section of the population in general with you. And that requires a certain level of cooperation no matter what.

Also having the big decisions owned by the people ensures that you don’t see the big divisions we’ve seen open up along party lines else where. And it makes the decisions easier to change. It’s much easier for the people to change their minds, revisit issues etc when the decision is not owned by the politicians.

Ireland and Switzerland are about consensus politics and so decisions on the strategic issues happen slowly but are widely supported.

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 30-06-2021 5:17pm

PR-STV also lets voters cast votes for multiple parties and independents, weighting them in how they’re ranked.
That contrasts to most European PR systems that use party lists primarily and means that Irish voters cast quite nuanced and complex ballots.

There’s an understanding of the concept of power sharing and an expectation that you need to reflect multiple opinions.

If you contrast it with the U.K. Westminster elections, French elections or with the US, it’s an extremely different political culture.

It may also be part of the reason why we are very used to EU style compromise and deal making politics, while the U.K. is furious that it had to listen to other points of view, do deals and find consensus. They’re not at all used to that kind of politics.

Interestingly, Scotland and NI have systems that look more like ours than Westminster too.

Jim2007 · 30-06-2021 7:30pm

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Interestingly, Scotland and NI have systems that look more like ours than Westminster too.

Is it perhaps an advancement in thinking on the parliament of Westminster style democracies though? Ireland was the first dominion to have a constitution enacted by the people. And I understand at the time of the negotiations it was not entirely an Irish idea with Birkenhead being a strong supporter of the idea.

What I more interesting is the comparison between Switzerland and Ireland. You have two very different countries in term of history, legal frameworks, local government national government and so on. And yet when it comes to managing constitutional issues they have evolved to a similar point:
- the very idea that parliament and government must operate within the bounds set by the people
- the need for an independent source of information
- hearing experts in the area
- a process of legal redress for those concerned about the outcome
- the need for the people to be able to revisit issues and change their minds
- the ownership of the decision by the people
- the emphasis on consensus beyond the party
- participation of voters who are uninterested in party politics
- and so on
It makes me feel that we’ve probably got a lot of it right.

30-06-2021 7:34pm

Highly conformist, but we like to dress it up as conscientiousness. That said, every country has its own totems and taboos. Ireland's size makes it more difficult for counter cultures to thrive.

Peregrinus · 01-07-2021 2:21am

Jim2007 wrote: »

Is it perhaps an advancement in thinking on the parliament of Westminster style democracies though? Ireland was the first dominion to have a constitution enacted by the people. And I understand at the time of the negotiations it was not entirely an Irish idea with Birkenhead being a strong supporter of the idea.

Nitpick: the Free State Constitution was not "enacted by the people"; it was enacted by Dail Eireann "sitting as a constituent assembly". It was also enacted, in parallel, by the Westminster Parliament in the Constitution of the Irish Free State Act 1922. This twin enactment enabled the UK to proceed on the basis that the IFS had been given a Constitution by the UK, and the IFS to proceed on the basis that it had adopted its own constitution.

It was a novelty in the sense that, up to that point, the constitutions of dominions had been granted by statutes of the UK Parliament alone (the British North America Act 1867, the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act 1900, etc) with no parallel enactment or adoption by the dominion concerned.

The 1937 Constitution was enacted by the people. This was not the result of any negotiations with the UK and Birkenhead, who died in 1930, was not involved. There was no parallel enactment by Westminster.

(Which means that, technically, the 1937 Constitution was a revolutionary document. Under the 1922 Constitution, and under Westminster constitutional theory, the people had no legislative authority, and did not have the capacity to amend, repeal or abolish the 1922 Constitution or enact a new one. But they did it anyway, and that represents the sovereignty of the people being asserted successfully against the sovereignty of the Crown. Like the French Revolution, but without the Terror.

)

B2021M · 01-07-2021 2:36am

Jim2007 wrote: »

In other words, we’re Switzerland. And being a citizen of both and having worked on political campaigns in both I’d say the thinking is very much the same. To the best of my knowledge they are the only countries in Europe at least with a Sovereign People, although Ireland is stricter in that the constitution provides no circumstances in which parliament can ignore the outcome of a referendum.

The environment produces a different type of voter, one who thinks on two levels - strategic: how I want the country run in the long term and tactical: who do I want to run the country in the short term. That means the questions are different, the sources of information relied on are different and voters are comfortable with voting the party line on one matter and against the party on another, even on the same day.

It also produces a different kind of politician, one who knows there are limits to their powers, where by you can’t make the big strategic decisions without bringing not only the party, but a large section of the population in general with you. And that requires a certain level of cooperation no matter what.

Also having the big decisions owned by the people ensures that you don’t see the big divisions we’ve seen open up along party lines else where. And it makes the decisions easier to change. It’s much easier for the people to change their minds, revisit issues etc when the decision is not owned by the politicians.

Ireland and Switzerland are about consensus politics and so decisions on the strategic issues happen slowly but are widely supported.

I broadly agree with what you have outlined. I think, however, that when a particular set of consensus views exist in a country for a long time they may become self-reinforcing.

A lot of voters may not follow politics closely on a day to day basis. If there is groupthink and parties appear similar then they will not be exposed to different ideas or the possibility of voting a different way.

Nearly all Irish media portray the Tory Party and Donald Trump as 'bad' leading to negative opinions of them among people who know little about their actual policies.

Peregrinus · 01-07-2021 3:24am

B2021M wrote: »

I broadly agree with what you have outlined. I think, however, that when a particular set of consensus views exist in a country for a long time they may become self-reinforcing.

A lot of voters may not follow politics closely on a day to day basis. If there is groupthink and parties appear similar then they will not be exposed to different ideas or the possibility of voting a different way.

Nearly all Irish media portray the Tory Party and Donald Trump as 'bad' leading to negative opinions of them among people who know little about their actual policies.

That's not necessarily the result of PRSTV, though. We see exactly the same phenomenon in the UK, with FPTP, where voters expressed approval of the policies of Labour (under Corbyn), but only if they weren't presented as Labour policies. Because they saw Labour as "bad", they rejected the exact same policies when presented to them as Labour policies.

There's a general observation, not confined to Ireland, that politics has become more "tribal" and identity-driven, and therefore more polarised. And we only have to look at the UK and the US to see that this hasn't made for better government. In Ireland we aren't immune to this, but our political/electoral system counters the worst effects of it by linking political success with the ability to make agreements, build consensus and work across party lines.

listermint · 01-07-2021 6:41am

B2021M wrote: »

I broadly agree with what you have outlined. I think, however, that when a particular set of consensus views exist in a country for a long time they may become self-reinforcing.

A lot of voters may not follow politics closely on a day to day basis. If there is groupthink and parties appear similar then they will not be exposed to different ideas or the possibility of voting a different way.

Nearly all Irish media portray the Tory Party and Donald Trump as 'bad' leading to negative opinions of them among people who know little about their actual policies.

I rarely read Irish media I read all sorts of media and have yet to see any Tory polices or trump polices that were good for anyone but the aforementioned.

Am I an Irish media consumer shill ? Or just fully aware of self interested narcissists given tastes of power with no interest in actually governing .

01-07-2021 10:42am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm not aware of any proof, and there probably isn't any since records of educational attainment weren't collated until well into the 20th century. Whatever records do exist are disparate, and impossible to rely upon.

Having said that, it stands to reason. If this person is talking about emigration to America, it's generally accepted that the poorest people in Irish society were typically unable to emigrate to the United States, or at least until the late 19th century. It follows that the families who could afford to emigrate a child were also able to maintain children in schools, instead of using them as agricultural labourers or having them go out and work as such.

Emigration to England probably wasn't even affordable to the poorest people, who lived hand-to-mouth during the height of Irish emigration. I think it's reasonably fair to deduce that the lower-middle class (by the standards of the time) were most likely to emigrate and also most likely to have better education than their peers.

As for hard evidence, there is probably none.

I’m pretty sure the very poorest did emigrate in the 20C. They went to work on sites and so on during Britain’s 30 year post war boom. Getting the price of a bus and boat ticket to the U.K. wasn’t that prohibitive. The only time this wasn’t true was the 80s-90s emigration patterns. It was hard for graduates to get jobs then.

The evidence is probably out there, somewhere.

01-07-2021 10:43am

listermint wrote: »

I don't have problems with it other than I haven't a clue what it's trying to convey ?

Well I’ve no way of correcting that unless you ask more questions.

mariaalice · 21-07-2021 3:01pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117559857#Comment_117559857

What is interesting about that it was only when the middle class has to emigrated it started to be discussed as a problem in the media, and in wider discourses when the poor were emigrating it was presented as either their own fault or it was ignored. As for the general point, there has never been a deeply developed right or left in Irish politics and I don't see it developing now but you never know.

Good loser · 26-07-2021 7:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117549610#Comment_117549610

That is, in my opinion, the best post in the series. I think it fair to tie the cohesiveness etc of Irish society (or lack thereof) to the laws and referenda passed by the legislature over the years. The electoral system is thus fundamental.

Since independence I think only one momentous event had overwhelming consequences - the setting up of RTE. For years, in its heyday, public debate was shaped and sculpted by the national broadcaster into a consensus. With the advent of new media including social media that consensus has been smashed, never to be re instated.

Hotblack Desiato · 29-07-2021 11:49pm

RTE (or TE as it was then) imho did almost nothing to frighten the horses. They had (still have) the Angelus every day and until quite recently bishops etc. were fawned over and never questioned. To this day not one of them has ever been properly grilled on air over the orchestrated cover-up of child abuse. Radharc (a series actually produced by the RCC "Catholic Communications Office" not RTE, and presented by priests) lasted for 35 years until 1996! This sort of programming wasn't (at least initially) holding our society back, it reflected where it was, but it became increasingly anachronistic and divorced (!) from reality over the years.

Gay Byrne was as controversial as RTE was prepared to get in the 60s/70s/80s, and he remained a pretty conservative practising Catholic all his life. But just allowing the odd dissenting opinion to be heard was enough for him to be kept only on a 3-month contract for most of his career, and TLLS came very close to cancellation a few times. Bishop and the Nightie, the other incident where the bishop of Galway was called a moron. I wasn't born then so all we have are the complaining letters etc. to go on but it would be interesting to know what ordinary people really thought then. B&N incident probably went quite some way towards making ordinary people realise how silly and out of touch, even then, the hierarchy were.

RTE mainly showed very tame domestic content (The Spike being one of the very rare exceptions, and it got canned) mixed in with US westerns and cop shows. It wasn't until RTE2 came along in 1978 that much of the country got to see some contemporary British content - including Coronation Street and (shudder!) Top of the Pops!

In the 80s more and more areas got 'deflectors' or cable TV and outside influences came to areas they'd never been before. Satellite TV by the late 90s was popular across the whole country and IMHO did a hell of a lot to liberalise rural Ireland's attitudes.

The controversial (but weren't really that controversial when the votes were actually counted) 2015 and 2018 referendums showed that the rural / urban divide barely exists any more. Even in terms of age breakdown according to the exit polls, a lot of 70 and 80-somethings have completely turned around their attitudes compared to those same people 30 and 40 years ago. We used to be a very insular country and thankfully that is long gone. We are not exceptional. We don't want "Irish solutions to Irish problems." We used to regard ourselves as a great exception in the Western world - exceptionally pious - now we are really not much different and have similar problems (but as I said recently in another thread, I'd much rather have the problems of affluence than the problems of poverty.)

bob mcbob · 11-08-2021 1:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117549873#Comment_117549873

Thats interesting but I have a different take.

My view is that there is another way that Ireland very is like Switzerland. They did not directly experience the huge societal changes caused by 2 world wars.

They did not have a generation of young working class men going off to fight for their country. After the war, these men refused to accept the pre-war status quo and fought for improvements to their society / lives.

They did not have the generation of young working class women who were drafted into factories as a result of the men away fighting. After the war, these women would no longer accept that getting married and having children was their position and fought for improvements to their society / lives.

Ireland and Switzerland followed with these societal changes but it was more a result of the consensus changing in Ire/Swi (ie women in Switzerland got the vote in 1971)

Hotblack Desiato · 11-08-2021 4:11pm

If you'd have said just WWII, then maybe.

Lots of Irishmen fought in WWI and many of those who came back got involved in the independence struggle either in Sinn Fein or the IRA. Many who signed up had believed Redmond's promise that fighting for the "freedom of small nations" under the British meant freedom for Ireland, too. (It should be noted that, unlike Britain, all from the island of Ireland who fought in either world war were volunteers.)

Plenty of women were involved in the independence struggle too but they and their concerns were rapidly sidelined after independence. Irish women had more legal rights - divorce, contraception, employment - in 1922 than they did in 1972.

bob mcbob · 12-08-2021 11:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738670#Comment_117738670

Thanks I did not know that about women's rights.

I am interested - for a generation of women who were willing to risk their life for independence in the 20's, why would they accept the limitations imposed on them a mere 10 years later.

Hotblack Desiato · 12-08-2021 12:57pm

You might as well ask the same about the socialists who were prominent in the independence struggle.

Most of them backed the anti-treaty side and after the civil war were sidelined / excluded from participation in the economy never mind politics.

The conservative catholic Taliban took over. Some revolution...

Sam Russell · 12-08-2021 8:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117742318#Comment_117742318

I assume you are referring to the pair - Dev and McQuaid. Both had a dreadful impact on Ireland and its development since independence.

Between them they imposed a nasty Theocracy that imprisoned women in the home, prevented many liberal ideas - in particular The Mother and Baby proposal. They also oversaw the Magdalen Laundries, Mother and Baby homes for unmarried pregnant girls - where many babies died while supposedly in the care of the state, the operation of 'industrial schools' - which were basically prisons for children of the poor.

It is best we forget for ever both two nasty individuals, and erase them from our history books.

lawred2 · 12-08-2021 8:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058195558/the-irish-problem-of-cohesion-when-solidarity-becomes-groupthink

yerra we're falling victim to all this divisive culture wars bullsh!t just like every other nation in the Anglosphere

this cohesion is going to be tested

bob mcbob · 13-08-2021 12:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117744522#Comment_117744522

The definition of social cohesion is -

Social cohesion involves building shared values and communities of interpretation, reducing disparities in wealth and income, and generally enabling people to have a sense that they are engaged in a common enterprise, facing shared challenges, and that they are members of the same community

Nothing there about everyone in society believing the same things or challenging things in society.

This "culture war bullish!t" is what every new generation does, they challenge the views of their parent's generation - it's called progress. Personally while I am positive of a lot of it, I am come from the "fail to learn from history and you are doomed to repeat it" camp. Children should be taught a warts and all view of history.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-08-2021 1:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117744419#Comment_117744419

It wasn't just them though.

CnaG / FG were very deeply conservative right up until the 80s - remember Oliver J Flanagan and Alice Glenn, anyone?

"I am an Irishman second, I am a Catholic first, and I accept without qualification in all respects the teaching of the hierarchy and the church to which I belong." Taoiseach John A. Costello, 1951, on the occasion of the resignation of Noel Browne.

In 1973 the Supreme Court ruled that the ban on contraceptives was unconstitutional. Taoiseach Liam Cosgrave infamously voted against his own party's contraception bill in 1974 on a free vote - it was defeated and contraception remained entirely illegal until 1979 and Charlie Haughey's "Irish solution to an Irish problem" - condoms on prescription only.

Even Labour and Clann na Poblachta were largely pro-church and socially conservative.

"...to repose at the feet of Your Holiness the assurance of our filial loyalty and our devotion to Your August Person, as well as our firm resolve to be guided in all our work by the teaching of Christ and to strive for the attainment of a social order in Ireland based on Christian principles". Telegram from Sean Mac Bride to Pope Pius XII on his appointment to Cabinet, 1948.

Sam Russell · 13-08-2021 4:01pm

Not just Dec and McQuaid, but both those used the powers they could muster, and the fear of God they could command to commit some dreadful crimes against women and children - ignoring the Christian teaching of Christ - 'Suffer not the little children -' etc. They were both addicted to power.

Charles Babbage · 15-08-2021 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738670#Comment_117738670

In 1922, Irish woman had a package of "rights" which a Englishmen had decided they should have. In 1972 they had the package that they themselves had voted for.

markodaly · 24-08-2021 1:12am

An interesting OP it must be said, and in general, I have to agree with the sentiment.

Ireland is indeed quite a cohesive place but that comes with problems. Too many people are 'set up' for example, enjoying the status quo while not willing to budge on any of the big issues, be it housing, reform of the health service, reform of public services, or even reform of education. How is it we still persist with the same type of Irish Language policy many decades later knowing its been a complete failure? David McWilliams terms this an insider culture and I believe there is a lot of truth to it. If you are on the inside, then you get a nice ride.

Getting anything done in this country takes forever because the system we have built allows for objections over the smallest and littlest things. THe Kerry slug anyone?

Even getting a bike lane built is a huge enormous task, what hope then to actually transform or society for the better and stop policies that harm us, for example, single-use one-off housing for example?

So, we go through the motions, talk endlessly about the problems, compile report after report and most of the time, do nothing about it, as that would require both political backbone that may upset some interest group and risk. We are a very adverse risk nation but I think that comes from the OP's talk about us putting concensus above all else.

markodaly · 24-08-2021 1:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117757841#Comment_117757841

I guess that must be a great solace to the Irish women of 1972.

Take for example what's happening in Afghanistan. I take it when the Taliban start to exert their brand of Sharia Law to the women of Afghanistan, they can console themselves with the thinking that 'well at least we are being oppressed by our own!'

The Irish Problem of Cohesion: When solidarity becomes groupthink

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