The Irish Problem of Cohesion: When solidarity becomes groupthink

Hotblack Desiato

The alternative Taoiseach to Dev in the 50s was John A. "I am a Catholic first, an Irishman second" Costello.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117842821#Comment_117842821

Nothing in the constitution specific to most of what you mentioned.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840411#Comment_117840411

It really doesn’t hollow out villages and towns. My country relatives live in a once off house in the country. One you’d like though because it’s 18c and Georgian. They participate in the local life of the village, and close market town civic as well as sporting events and the GAA. The public transport is nonexistent alright.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843570#Comment_117843570

Constitutional ban on divorce.

Woman's place in the home.

"Special position" of the catholic church.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117844083#Comment_117844083

The divorce ban was much later. The special position didn’t amount to much - and Britain still has an established church.

Anyway for all of its Catholic history as an independent State Ireland was a liberal democracy and freer than most of the world most of the time.

However I still think we are a shame father than a guilt culture. Guilt cultures are more internal. Shame cultures invite groupthink.

Hotblack Desiato

What do you mean "much later". The 1937 constitution explicitly prohibited divorce. The "special position" didn't amount to much constitutionally but was regarded as giving the Dail (the Seanad was originally supposed to protect the rights of protestants....!) free licence to legislate RCC doctrine into law, and gave great coverage to the Dept. of Education's (and others') imposition of catholic doctrine upon citizens by administrative means. Until well into the 1960s it also meant that any challenge to RCC doctrine-as-law on human rights grounds in our courts was completely pointless.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117844292#Comment_117844292

The ban on divorce came in 1937, the same year the new 1937 constitution was voted on and ratified. It also contained this nugget.

1° [...] the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved. 2° The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

Using the word 'free' is subjective. It really depends, as certainly for Irish women, they were less free in the new Irish State, than they were in the old at of Union between Ireland and Britain.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843779#Comment_117843779

The data doesn't back this up. We have decades of reports and first-hand experiences on this issue. Rural life is car-dominated and if more people live in one off housing, they will jump into their car and instead of going to the village 3 km up the road, they will drive the 15km to the nearest big town, where there is a Tesco or a Dunnes or a bank or post office.

People like the Healy Raes talk a good game about saving rural Ireland but what do they mean by rural Ireland. More people than ever are now living in rural Ireland, it's just they are living in one-off housing, disconnected from the village or small town because that is the way planning laws allow it. So they will give out about trying to save the local post office, but then why does it need saving if more people are living around the hinterland? Maybe its because people vote with their feet, or in this case cars and will do their business in the large town instead of some poxy village that is hollowed out because everyone is living in some new detached build on some free inherited road frontage.

I get why one-off housing is popular to some, it is basically a state subsidy to live a certain way and a tax-free unearned gift from your folks because your folks and their folks inherited some free land, where you can build your house on the cheap, compared to buying one like most others.

At least if the government stopped subsidising these houses I'd maybe say, fair enough. If those living in rural Ireland had to pay taxes based on the size of their homes and pay the full cost of broadband installation and ESB connectivity, it would make many people think twice. Also, free land from the parents should be taxed!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845099#Comment_117845099

I didn’t deny that car usage was a problem. I denied most of the other issues - the supposed isolation, mental health issues, atomisation etc. In fact you’ve dropped all those. So you were either lying or incorrect about most of your arguments

Now you are claiming the person who has a once off house has inherited it for free, which you present as an evil unique to this case. I would favour an increase in inheritance tax as well, and in general you wouldn’t, but it’s largely a disproportionate benefit to city dwellers from rich suburbs. Where the money is

That said, if someone inherits they must be from where they’ve grown up - so where’s the atomised isolation? To my mind certainly far more isolation and mental health issues in a 50sq apartment in Dublin.

As i said, 100th on the list to solve. And I suspect the real reason that a certain type of Dubliner gets annoyed that someone down the country has a nice space, with a view, for cheap. They just don’t know their place.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845566#Comment_117845566

Right, so you acknowledge that one-off housing is grossly inefficient and leads to car dependency.

For the other negatives, look at the data.

Here is Danny Healy Rae saying that Drink driving is not the issue, rural isolation is.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20220506.html

As to the inheritance, of course, not all people who live in one-off housing have gotten their land for free, but many have. Why else is the term 'road frontage' in the Irish vernacular?

It is funny that you ignore that Irish land can be inherited tax-free. So much so, richer families from south Dublin use it as a means to gift their children a tax-free capital lump sum. There are many quirks in Ireland that would need to be ironed out and this would be one of them.

Again just look at the data. One-off housing is just bad all around.

Now if you want to make a reasonable case for it, then fine. Work away, but you won't even do that, but just saying that there are 'bigger fish' to fry.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848453#Comment_117848453

I didn't really acknowledge that once off housing is "grossly efficient". That's a straw man, putting words in my mouth. I said that you were right on public transport. I doubt your eco warrior credentials in general, except perhaps when it suits.

Anyway an anecdote from the Healy Rae's isn't data. You said

look at the data

but it is the data I am looking for. I believe urban Ireland is more atomised than rural Ireland. Although there is some loneliness in rural Ireland. Anyway, farmers aren't part of the population who can live in villages, they have to live in farms. The question is about a worker who lives outside a town, rather than in it.

I didn't ignore that Irish land can be inherited tax free. Why lie?

I would favour an increase in inheritance tax as well, and in general you wouldn’t, but it’s largely a disproportionate benefit to city dwellers from rich suburb

Are you in favour of increased inheritance tax, or it is something that you use, like your supposed concern about the environment, only when convenient?. You ignored my claim that inheritance benefits the urban upper middle classes more than the rural farmer.

And then again you ask to look at the, apparently unsourced, data.

What an extremely disingenuous style of argument you have.

Anyway it is way down my list of priorities, as I said so I won't be continuing this discussion here. There may be a thread somewhere else where the issue can be better discussed.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117849049#Comment_117849049

I didn't really acknowledge that once off housing is "grossly efficient". That's a straw man, putting words in my mouth. I said that you were right on public transport. I doubt your eco warrior credentials in general, except perhaps when it suits

You said.

 I mean I get that it’s inefficient

Are you now saying one-off housing is actually efficient?

but it is the data I am looking for. I believe urban Ireland is more atomised than rural Ireland. Although there is some loneliness in rural Ireland. Anyway, farmers aren't part of the population who can live in villages, they have to live in farms. The question is about a worker who lives outside a town, rather than in it.

That's the point. More people are one-off housing is actually educated professionals, rather than people that have anything to do with farming or the land.

As for data, if you live in rural Ireland you are more of risk of suicide.

https://www.drugsandalcohol.ie/25276/1/Understanding%20suicide.pdf

But if you really want a deep dive, look here.

https://web.archive.org/web/20201031055346/https%3A//irishplanningfutures.wordpress.com/ruralhousing/

Outlines all the negatives of one off rural housing.

What exactly do these cases want down the country? Communes? What they’re spouting is insanity and getting to the stage where the life they believe people should live isn’t worth even living.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117851947#Comment_117851947

They want new housing constructed in existing or new settlements (e.g. villages, towns) rather than dotted in isolated locations.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117852183#Comment_117852183

That leaves nothing worth working towards in life at all and would only lead to a complete breakdown after a few years. Life needs to be worth living to fuel progression.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117852508#Comment_117852508

Sorry, life in towns and villages is not worth living? If people don't live in physically isolated dwellings in open countryside the result must be "complete breakdown after a few years"?

Is this your first day on planet Earth?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117852524#Comment_117852524

People want different things and forcing your own preferences on them will never work long term - we’re not drones. If I hadn’t a single house in the countryside to work for in my life I’d have just said **** it years ago and went on a list for a free one.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117852568#Comment_117852568

That is very odd reasoning I must say. Not everyone wants to live in a bungalow in the middle of nowhere up the side of a mountain. The idea you put forward that the 'best' way to life is like that, does not correlate with the data for mental health.

The idea that people living in small to medium clusters, near walking distance to villages and small towns is somehow a hellish prophecy is laughable to the extreme. Why are those who favour one-off housing so much are prone to dramatics?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117856615#Comment_117856615

Not everyone, but many. Not everyone wants to live in your dystopian future either and “not everyone” is a very odd argument to make when your idea is to force everyone to follow your line of thinking.

It’s a bit rich bringing mental health into a conversation like this and then accuse people of dramatics, but then again your type tend to just work from a list of buzzwords without any actual reasoning. You live where you want and I’ll live where I want. I’ve earned the right at this stage.

sydthebeat

The strongest community spirit I've seen across many areas of Ireland had been within rural areas of one off houses. People get together at times of crisis or loss, for security, and for basic help.

I know housing estates where people don't know their direct neighbours, never mind the house 3 doors up.

This idea that rural one off housing is some kind of blight on the country is a complete farce. It's a very very valid means of population dispersal and community growth. The problem is its not understood by people who have never experienced it.

The last two years have shown us that urban living is not actually fit for purpose. There is not enough amenity space for the populations we have living in our cities and large towns. The design of low rise urban sprawl is the real planning blight on the countries history

With modern advances in waste water treatment and electric vehicles the main stick to beat rural living with is being negated day by day

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117856620#Comment_117856620

Mark didn't bring mental health into the conversation; you did, in post #77, when you said that if you couldn't live in an isolated house in open countryside you'd have "a complete breakdown after a few years".

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117856620#Comment_117856620

Dystopian? Living in a small village or town is dystopian? Dramatic much?

Your whole argument is based on "I will do what I WANT, I am alright Jack"

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117856632#Comment_117856632

I posted some links above in regards to the detrimental and negative effects one-off housing has on society at large. All ignored it must be said.

When you mention wastewater for example, Ireland continually ranks one of the lowest in the EU for its clean water. A lot of it can be traced back to the haphazard way we settle our population.

Over 80% of households in rural areas (accounting for one third of Ireland’s population) treat and dispose of wastewater effluent on-site through septic tanks or other domestic systems. The total number of septic tanks in Ireland presently amounts to roughly 500,000 and owes in large part to the glut of one-off dwellings constructed during the last twenty years. The discharge from these septic tank systems is estimated to be in the range of 200 – 300 million litres per day. On a national scale, this is equivalent to 84 Olympic swimming pools per day of unregulated human waste.

.

.

There has been very little official acknowledgement of the sheer scale of the problem which has been allowed to develop over successive decades. A regulatory impact assessment prepared for the Government in 2007 estimated that the cost of remediating septic tanks would cost rural families in the region of €7,000 to €25,000 per dwelling, with an overall potential cost of €3 billion. This excludes ongoing licensing and maintenance costs. 

I am sure all those in one-off housing won't be lobbying the government to pay for fixing up their $hit (literally!)

Again, if people in one-off housing actually paid the full costs associated with it, with no government handouts, full frontier-style, id say something, but the fact is that they claim to want to freedom to live where they want, but are doing in on the backs of other taxpayers. That is the nub of it really.

Peregrinus

Worth pointing out that there is no requirement that ReginaldSmythV or anyone else should be required to live in a town or village. The suggestion is that new housing should be constructed in towns and villages, but here are plenty of one-off houses in rural locations already in existence and they can be freely bought, sold and occupied. So all Reg has to do is buy an existing house of the kind he likes. Unless, perchance, having to live in a second-hand house would deprive his life of all meaning and lead to a total breakdown in a few years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861549#Comment_117861549

Wrong. Have another little go at reading what I said there bub.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861626#Comment_117861626

You said:

"That [i.e. the construction of new housing in towns and villages rather than dotted in isolated locations] leaves nothing worth working towards in life at all and would only lead to a complete breakdown after a few years. Life needs to be worth living to fuel progression."

When challenged on this you accepted that different people wanted different things, and justified the statement by reference to your own need for a single house in the countryside.

Presumably you weren't suggesting that the entire nation would have a collective breakdown if ReginaldSmythV didn't get his dream home; the only person for whom that might conceivably trigger a breakdown is you.

My apologies if I have misunderstood you, but it's what I understood from what you wrote. And, having reread it, that still seems to me to be what you are saying.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861635#Comment_117861635

A breakdown of society once you take away goals from people and force them into whatever type of communes you lot have dreamt up. What would the point in anyone ever becoming skilled at anything? Humanity can't work like that.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861674#Comment_117861674

As already pointed out, nobody has suggested building communes, never mind forcing anybody into them.

What is suggested is a policy of locating new housebuilding in existing towns and villages. This (a) is how most people already live; (b) has well-established social, economic and environmental benefits; (c) is how most people, in Ireland and worldwide, prefer to live and (d) is, historically, the norm for Ireland - the pattern of isolated rural dwellings was imposed by the Land Commission and the Congested Districts Board in the late nineteenth century because they thought it would make smallholder farming more efficient. (Turned out that it didn't.)

All of which considerations suggest strongly that the policy is not going to lead to "a breakdown of society" which, frankly, is just a hysterical suggestion.

Sam Russell

One off housing is the choice for a number of people for one or more of the following reasons:

1: They are gifted a site on the family land holding to enable them to build a home they would not otherwise afford, or just for them to build a home 'at home'.

2: They want to build a home themselves and buy a site. This is driven by the fact that they can use their own labour to reduce the cost of construction.

3: They want to live in an isolated place, or an area of their own choice and no suitable house is available.

4: They want to live in a house of their own design, and they can control the construction if it is a one off house.

However, one off houses are not built under sufficient building control that would prevent disasters like the mica and other substandard materials that cause problems later. Sewerage systems are not universally maintained and give rise to groundwater pollution. The state are currently funding, at great expense, the provision of broadband, having previously provided ESB. There will be a need to provide public transport, ambulance, fire service, policing, etc. These services are not cheap and are considerably more expensive if one off housing is prevalent.

That all amounts to one off housing benefitting from the general taxpayer, and that cannot be balanced without higher taxation than would otherwise pertain. This could be addressed by adjusting the property tax, but that would be impossible politically.