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Luas Finglas

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  • Am I correct in saying a Luas from Charlestown would only be able to turn back north at Dominick and SSG?




  • They need to make public transport cheaper in general, tax saver tickets/ full season tickets don't work for everyone at all. Another thing that could be done is focus car related costs to distance travelled rather than annual costs, don't penalise owning a car, penalise using it everyday

    Yeah I think I heard on The Week in Politics a few weeks back that the Dept of the Environment are considering making public transport free on the basis that doing so would work out cheaper to the state than paying the forthcoming fines to the EU for excess carbon emissions. Im not sure if it will go ahead but it is under consideration.

    The cynic in me though thinks even if PT were free you would still have people driving into the city who could have taken the free PT option. There does seem to be a level of snobishness from some people when it comes to PT.




  • MJohnston wrote: »
    Am I correct in saying a Luas from Charlestown would only be able to turn back north at Dominick and SSG?

    As of now. There's a suggestion of a turnback at Charlemont in the medium term.

    Running on to Sandyford or Brides Glen will happen too I'm sure




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    At peak times the trams are given longer to cross the city centre.

    Plenty of scope for additional trams north of Parnell. At least 50% of trams from south of the city turn back at Parnell.

    I am saying though that even at non peak times I don't think in reality the Luas is that fast through the city center. Think about it, you've got O'connel street stop, bridge over, d'oleir street possibly hit lights there, Trinity stop, Dawson street stop, then Stephens green.

    They are doing that in 6 minutes during non peak times. I am skeptical as all hell. Also focussing on non peak times is strange, its peak because it's shifting the majority of people then, unlike cars public transport shouldn't slow during peak times.

    In terms of capacity it doesn't matter about the trams going onwards, the system at peak is already basically at capacity on the many trams between say Talbot Street to Central park, that's without the extensions and very large amounts of people moving into high density developments close to Luas stops.

    If the answer is that it will stay at current levels due to working from home then why are these expensive places being built and densification being advocated with the key appeal of public transport to place of employment. It doesn't add up.




  • Wait so the Luas is only meant to take six minutes between O'Connell Street to Stephens green!
    That can't be right I get pre- morning rush hour Luas occasionally and I don't think it's that speed even then. In the evenings it is certainly much slower than that.

    Is there a thread here that focuses on the potential capacity issues the Luas is going to face with this densification and route extensions?

    The Green Line has finished (or is very near finishing) a capacity enhancement programme (GLCE). All trams are 55m compared to 43m previously. There’s a thread on TII projects which has a PowerPoint with all the info.

    From a capacity standpoint, the section between SSG and Sandyford is the worst. 1000 more units at the central mental hospital isn’t going to help that. It’ll be going up to 30 tph eventually which is frankly ridiculous for a tram.

    There are threads of Sworda-Sandyford metro link. Capacity is the main reason for eventual metro upgrade


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  • They need to make public transport cheaper in general, tax saver tickets/ full season tickets don't work for everyone at all. Another thing that could be done is focus car related costs to distance travelled rather than annual costs, don't penalise owning a car, penalise using it everyday

    Agree. More flexible annual tickets are needed. I think there’s talk about 3 days per week tickets.

    Driving is expensive in Ireland on an annual basis. But if you’re going into work and have a free space there, the cost for that journey is pretty low.

    I think Biden was going towards a “vehicle miles driven tax” but that wasn’t massively popular with the American public (and car lobby). We should look at the same thing here. There was also a plan for a car parking levy here- was never implemented




  • Muahahaha wrote: »
    Yeah I think I heard on The Week in Politics a few weeks back that the Dept of the Environment are considering making public transport free on the basis that doing so would work out cheaper to the state than paying the forthcoming fines to the EU for excess carbon emissions. Im not sure if it will go ahead but it is under consideration.

    The cynic in me though thinks even if PT were free you would still have people driving into the city who could have taken the free PT option. There does seem to be a level of snobishness from some people when it comes to PT.

    Most models will show you in cities like Dublin that the commuter is quite price insensitive when it comes to public transport fares.

    Setting the fare to 0 typically results in reducing the number of people walking and cycling rather than attracting car users. If you can afford your own car bus fare isn't an issue, you drive because you have a car and somewhere to park for free or cheap.

    A tax on parking spaces that makes them more expensive tobuse than the bus would yield a better result. Making pt free only attracts car users taking leisure and family trips.




  • cgcsb wrote: »
    Most models will show you in cities like Dublin that the commuter is quite price insensitive when it comes to public transport fares.

    Setting the fare to 0 typically results in reducing the number of people walking and cycling rather than attracting car users. If you can afford your own car bus fare isn't an issue, you drive because you have a car and somewhere to park for free or cheap.

    A tax on parking spaces that makes them more expensive tobuse than the bus would yield a better result. Making pt free only attracts car users taking leisure and family trips.

    Free public transport would cost us at least €750million every year(rising significantly with BC,ML and D+).

    I’d rather see that money spent on DU, 4 tracking to Kildare and Malahide, Electrification, second metro for Dublin etc




  • I am saying though that even at non peak times I don't think in reality the Luas is that fast through the city center. Think about it, you've got O'connel street stop, bridge over, d'oleir street possibly hit lights there, Trinity stop, Dawson street stop, then Stephens green.

    They are doing that in 6 minutes during non peak times. I am skeptical as all hell. Also focussing on non peak times is strange, its peak because it's shifting the majority of people then, unlike cars public transport shouldn't slow during peak times.

    In terms of capacity it doesn't matter about the trams going onwards, the system at peak is already basically at capacity on the many trams between say Talbot Street to Central park, that's without the extensions and very large amounts of people moving into high density developments close to Luas stops.

    If the answer is that it will stay at current levels due to working from home then why are these expensive places being built and densification being advocated with the key appeal of public transport to place of employment. It doesn't add up.

    First of all the journey times quoted of 6 mins between Marlborough/O'Connell (GPO) and St Stephen's Green are from the actual LUAS timetables that are on the NTA Journey Planner website. At peak they have 9 minutes.

    When talking about capacity lets take it step by step:

    1) The track through the city centre is at/near capacity in terms of tram frequency, that is correct. However, existing services that start/terminate at Parnell would be extended to start/terminate at Broombridge, and those currently starting/terminating at Broombridge would start/terminate at Finglas. Therefore you are not putting any additional trams on the line south of Parnell. That will need more trams to deliver of course.

    2) When talking about the space on the trams themselves, trams heading south from Marlborough stop in the am peak are nowhere near full, and that was before they were all lengthened (they are now 55m long v 43m long) - the problems were all in the opposite direction. Similarly in the evening peak, the issues were heading south from the city, not north.

    3) I certainly don't think that the majority of users from a Finglas extension will be going beyond St. Stephen's Green, so while it will of course see more users, it won't be to the extent you are implying.




  • They could increase the Luas capacity by giving it absolute priority such that it is not held at lights. It takes longer for a Luas tram to cross O'Connell St if it has to stop at the edge of it, so make sure it does not stop.

    I was on a tram pre-covid at Benburb St waiting to cross to Heuston for at least 5 mins waiting for the light to go ahead. The same happens waiting to cross O'C St. With that sort of delay, no wonder they are slow in the city centre.

    To get motorists out of cars, it is necessary to tackle parking - both in terms of cost and enforcement (lifting offending cars to the pound) - then reduce the number of spaces gradually over a few years - street by street - a few spaces at a time.


    Cheap PT fares would help.


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  • They could increase the Luas capacity by giving it absolute priority such that it is not held at lights. It takes longer for a Luas tram to cross O'Connell St if it has to stop at the edge of it, so make sure it does not stop.

    I was on a tram pre-covid at Benburb St waiting to cross to Heuston for at least 5 mins waiting for the light to go ahead. The same happens waiting to cross O'C St. With that sort of delay, no wonder they are slow in the city centre.

    To get motorists out of cars, it is necessary to tackle parking - both in terms of cost and enforcement (lifting offending cars to the pound) - then reduce the number of spaces gradually over a few years - street by street - a few spaces at a time.

    Cheap PT fares would help.

    A five minute wait at Benburb Street is not normal.

    O’Connell Street is complex as you have two tram lines crossing one another and a significant number of high frequency bus routes. When they did give Red Line trams priority there before, it caused mayhem, and I don’t see that happening again. Realistically it is a location where they have to follow the light cycles.




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    A five minute wait at Benburb Street is not normal.

    O’Connell Street is complex as you have two tram lines crossing one another and a significant number of high frequency bus routes. When they did give Red Line trams priority there before, it caused mayhem, and I don’t see that happening again. Realistically it is a location where they have to follow the light cycles.

    The trams could wait at Jervis or Abbey for a short while and both trams cross non-stop over O'C St, actually synchronising even, shortening their time crossing. It takes the same time, or less if they do not stop, for trams to cross no matter what, but many buses can cross the tram line together. Trams wait a minute or two at O'C St. - that is a minute or two on every journey.




  • The trams could wait at Jervis or Abbey for a short while and both trams cross non-stop over O'C St, actually synchronising even, shortening their time crossing. It takes the same time, or less if they do not stop, for trams to cross no matter what, but many buses can cross the tram line together. Trams wait a minute or two at O'C St. - that is a minute or two on every journey.

    Sam, Red Line trams already cross O'Connell Street together as it is, most of the time.

    You really cannot look at that junction in isolation - you have to look at the impact of not synchronising with the lights either side of O'Connell Bridge as well by not following the light cycle, particularly given the short distance from Bachelor's Walk to Abbey Street.

    It is rather more complex than you seem to think.




  • Free public transport would cost us at least €750million every year(rising significantly with BC,ML and D+).

    I’d rather see that money spent on DU, 4 tracking to Kildare and Malahide, Electrification, second metro for Dublin etc

    Not to mention that our PT system is basically at capacity at peak times*. Making it free will have no effect at these times, as you can cram anymore on.

    It's different at all the other times though, it has some merit there, but as you say, that money could instead be put to improving the system, which would benefit everyone more in the long run.


    *yes, this was pre covid, but to be honest, we're not far off getting back there.




  • CatInABox wrote: »
    Not to mention that our PT system is basically at capacity at peak times*. Making it free will have no effect at these times, as you can cram anymore on.

    It's different at all the other times though, it has some merit there, but as you say, that money could instead be put to improving the system, which would benefit everyone more in the long run.


    *yes, this was pre covid, but to be honest, we're not far off getting back there.

    It could make overcrowding a bit worse. Free PT has been shown to increase PT usage BUT not decrease car usage (which is the aim). People would be getting the bus for short journeys <1.5km that really should be walked. That's my main gripe with free PT: less active travel.

    I'd be more interested peak/off-peak fares. Would it spread journeys more evenly over the day? Or would it have absolutely no difference (like Irish Rail's peaktimes.ie experiment)




  • peaktimes.ie

    Haha, I forgot all about that, what a great reminder.

    I'd say that any effect free off peak travel would have would be fairly small, to be honest. Most people still want to finish in the 4 to 6 bracket, which means leaving for work in the 7 to 9 bracket. Even so, there's still a lot of unnecessary car journeys every day, maybe it'll reduce some of those, so it'll still be worth doing.




  • CatInABox wrote: »
    Haha, I forgot all about that, what a great reminder.

    I'd say that any effect free off peak travel would have would be fairly small, to be honest. Most people still want to finish in the 4 to 6 bracket, which means leaving for work in the 7 to 9 bracket. Even so, there's still a lot of unnecessary car journeys every day, maybe it'll reduce some of those, so it'll still be worth doing.

    I feel like putting effort into frequent and regular service patterns is far more effective than lowering cost or making free on local/commuter services.

    But subsidised fares intercity could have a major impact, obviously we badly need to improve speed for rail at least also, but people tend not to think about their fuel costs around a regular, short commute the same way as for longer journeys. Short commutes just get rolled into 'day to day fuel expense', but you'd consider the €40 fill-up for driving to Cork from Dublin as the 'cost of the journey'.

    So if the return fare to Cork was a good bit cheaper and the times were closer, it would probably shift a fair amount of people over.

    For the Luas though, its already well used, frequent and relatively efficient. I'd say all your fixes there are infrastructural/logistical, aka the whole city centre section on both lines should probably be either cut and cover or complete car ban.




  • I'd say all your fixes there are infrastructural/logistical, aka the whole city centre section on both lines should probably be either cut and cover or complete car ban.

    There needs to be more than 2 lines in the city centre ultimately. It's grand adding all these suburban extensions but the city centre needs the capacity to accommodate them and digging up city centre streets is not sexy in terms of political capital. In my view there should be 2 additional north-south lines, one connecting Glasnevin to Harold's X and one connecting Fairview to Ringsend and one additional east-west line connecting James's to Ringsend.

    Ultimately, There shouldn't be any car parking (bar the dissabled spots and EV charging points) at all between Parnell Sq and Harcourt st and between Capel/George's Street and Marlborough/Merrion Street. And the luas can share street space with buses and access. With all the capacity added there's no need for luas to act like a metro and have a high degree of separation.




  • The owners of this site applied for planning permission to demolish the car dealership and the Pizza Hut and build 27 apartments. The plans didn't take Luas Finglas and the proposed CPO into account. The NTA asked that it be rejected and so it was.

    Interestingly, the NTA also said that the site is being considered as a potential stop location. I can see the logic in it. It would bring the stop a little closer to the proposed high density areas in Jamestown and existing houses on Jamestown Road while still being less than 1km away from most of Finglas West. The small number of people on the edge of Finglas West who would be too far away from the stop would still be served by Cappagh Road bus services.

    uyfXx5vh.jpg




  • Peregrine wrote: »
    The owners of this site applied for planning permission to demolish the car dealership and the Pizza Hut and build 27 apartments. The plans didn't take Luas Finglas and the proposed CPO into account. The NTA asked that it be rejected and so it was.

    Interestingly, the NTA also said that the site is being considered as a potential stop location. I can see the logic in it. It would bring the stop a little closer to the proposed high density areas in Jamestown and existing houses on Jamestown Road while still being less than 1km away from most of Finglas West. The small number of people on the edge of Finglas West who would be too far away from the stop would still be served by Cappagh Road bus services.

    uyfXx5vh.jpg

    I presume this would be instead of (not in addition to) Mellowes Park Stop. ?They're less than 200m apart.


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  • I presume this would be instead of (not in addition to) Mellowes Park Stop. ?They're less than 200m apart.

    About the same difference between the Cabra and Phibsboro Luas stops, though probably with different demands




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    First of all the journey times quoted of 6 mins between Marlborough/O'Connell (GPO) and St Stephen's Green are from the actual LUAS timetables that are on the NTA Journey Planner website. At peak they have 9 minutes.

    No way are those times accurate for non Covid peak times, at Covid peak times running smoothly thats the time you get and even then it still backs up regularly. I just spent fifteen minutes or more between the stops mentioned and this happens regularly in normal times.




  • Second consultation in late October.

    The P&R site got planning permission for 590 apartments there. NTA confirmed that this doesn't affect the Luas Finglas project.





  • It'd make me wonder if they're now thinking of going over the M50 and putting the P&R over there, like many on here have suggested.





  • I wouldn't say so. It would require a mountain of survey work that they haven't completed. Not to mention the large costs associated with crossing the M50, building new roads etc. at a time of rising construction costs. We'll have to wait and see.





  • Luas Finglas will "continue to progress in the coming years" according to the NDP. Preliminary business case work already underway. It's mentioned separately to Poolbeg and Lucan which is still funded for appraisal and planning only.





  • It can be added on afterwards, keeps the headline cost down by excluding it, but by the time construction has finished, the last bit could be ready to go.





  • Genuine question, what do you think are the odds this will happen/be completed in the next five years, now that the Metro plans have been stalled so heavily?



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  • Next five years? Zero. Construction could start in late 2024 at the earliest.



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