Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

carfinder · 10-06-2021 6:44pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

That's one fast-moving queue.

Yes, and could only happen if vehicles were speeding and reached a law abiding vehicle travelling at the legal maximum speed. Such vehicles would have to break the law to pass the vehicle in front and therefore I would not regard this scenario as a legitimate queue.

CHESSMUTANT · 10-06-2021 10:15pm

carfinder wrote: »

it is a desperately inefficient use of the road infrastructure

How so?

magicbastarder · 10-06-2021 10:24pm

if everyone is moving at 60km/h and sticking to the two second rule, this is arguably a *more* efficient use of the road network.
i.e. as long as you're sticking to the two second rule, it doesn't matter what speed the traffic is moving at; someone standing on the side of the road will see a car passing every two seconds. using that metric, it's no more efficient. but if everyone is driving at 60km/h obeying the two second rule, you can physically fit more cars on the road (as they will be closer together). so rather than it being 'desperately inefficient' it's actually more efficient.

CHESSMUTANT · 10-06-2021 10:45pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

if everyone is moving at 60km/h and sticking to the two second rule, this is arguably a *more* efficient use of the road network.
i.e. as long as you're sticking to the two second rule, it doesn't matter what speed the traffic is moving at; someone standing on the side of the road will see a car passing every two seconds. using that metric, it's no more efficient. but if everyone is driving at 60km/h obeying the two second rule, you can physically fit more cars on the road (as they will be closer together). so rather than it being 'desperately inefficient' it's actually more efficient.

Yeah, I always thought that lower speeds increased road capacity.

Stark · 10-06-2021 10:50pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

if everyone is moving at 60km/h and sticking to the two second rule, this is arguably a *more* efficient use of the road network.
i.e. as long as you're sticking to the two second rule, it doesn't matter what speed the traffic is moving at; someone standing on the side of the road will see a car passing every two seconds. using that metric, it's no more efficient. but if everyone is driving at 60km/h obeying the two second rule, you can physically fit more cars on the road (as they will be closer together). so rather than it being 'desperately inefficient' it's actually more efficient.

Hence the proposed variable speed limits on the M50.

carfinder · 11-06-2021 6:39am

magicbastarder wrote: »

if everyone is moving at 60km/h and sticking to the two second rule, this is arguably a *more* efficient use of the road network.
i.e. as long as you're sticking to the two second rule, it doesn't matter what speed the traffic is moving at; someone standing on the side of the road will see a car passing every two seconds. using that metric, it's no more efficient. but if everyone is driving at 60km/h obeying the two second rule, you can physically fit more cars on the road (as they will be closer together). so rather than it being 'desperately inefficient' it's actually more efficient.

Only where the road network is at maximum or near maximum capacity which is not the case on the Irish road network (outside of rush hour in our major urban centres) so your point makes no sense. Slowing traffic down to 60kph on 100kph roads simply increases journey times and is an inefficient use of the road infrastructure. Allowing the road to "breathe" by getting slow moving traffic to pull in (as required by the Rules of the Road) is the best solution to optimising the use of our current road network. Also, building more motorway infrastructure has been a huge help for road transport in Ireland.

Tombo2001 · 11-06-2021 8:56am

blackwhite wrote: »

You're allowed to drive under the limit, and there's no limit for how low a speed to go at.

You still have an obligation - both legal and moral - to show due care and consideration for other road users.

If you are choosing to drive at a speed that is significantly different to what the majority of other road users have deemed to be acceptable, then there's an onus on you to display consideration for them also.

It doesn't absolve anyone who causes an accident by making an inappropriate overtake - but it also means that the person who was causing tailbacks to form behind them is necessarily "in the right" either.

Put it this way - I could believe it's appropriate to drive at 50km/h along this stretch of road whilst positioning a car towards the centre line https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.9698501,-8.2447858,3a,75y,83.24h,87.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLAysmNU8RGQYu4ZyiJYOlQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

It wouldn't be breaking any laws regarding speed, but there's a strong argument that I was breaking the law regarding due care and consideration if I continued at that speed all the way to Carrick-On-Shannon and allowed a tailback to build behind me.

In the scheme of thins, I would put this fairly (very) low in the list of 'different types of dangerous driving' that are seen daily on Irish roads.

People only get uptight about the sins that they dont commit themselves.

The people who make a big deal of this are the people who are sitting behind in the line of traffic.

I can certainly see how someone (and I dont mean you) that thinks nothing of driving a little over the limit, breaking the lights a little late, cutting the white line on bends and so on - could think that slow drivers are the very worst type of drivers.

Weepsie · 11-06-2021 9:00am

carfinder wrote: »

Only where the road network is at maximum or near maximum capacity which is not the case on the Irish road network (outside of rush hour in our major urban centres) so your point makes no sense. Slowing traffic down to 60kph on 100kph roads simply increases journey times and is an inefficient use of the road infrastructure. Allowing the road to "breathe" by getting slow moving traffic to pull in (as required by the Rules of the Road) is the best solution to optimising the use of our current road network. Also, building more motorway infrastructure has been a huge help for road transport in Ireland.

You must have a different rules of the road to the rest of us.

It's advised that tractors keep left, and to give way to traffic that is already overtaking, but it doesn't say it is required to pull in.

Also, Rules of the road are guidelines, not statute. There are laws on not creating obstructions, but there is nothing there about "letting the road breathe" as you so put it.

In fact, I would say pulling into the left to let traffic pass, is then creating an obstruction and more likely to cause some for of legal trouble.

tomasrojo · 11-06-2021 9:17am

Tombo2001 wrote: »

People only get uptight about the sins that they dont commit themselves.

Very true. Cycling, even slowly, on a footpath is very wrong; parking on a footpath, even blocking it entirely: what else can you do?

tomasrojo · 11-06-2021 9:18am

carfinder wrote: »

Only where the road network is at maximum or near maximum capacity

All the same, the scenario in question was one where there was a long "queue" of traffic traveling at 60km/h, and they couldn't find a gap in oncoming traffic to pass over a distance of 15km.

How far off capacity is this road?

blackwhite · 11-06-2021 9:32am

Tombo2001 wrote: »

In the scheme of thins, I would put this fairly (very) low in the list of 'different types of dangerous driving' that are seen daily on Irish roads.

People only get uptight about the sins that they dont commit themselves.

The people who make a big deal of this are the people who are sitting behind in the line of traffic.

I can certainly see how someone (and I dont mean you) that thinks nothing of driving a little over the limit, breaking the lights a little late, cutting the white line on bends and so on - could think that slow drivers are the very worst type of drivers.

There's some heavy strawmanning going on here - unless of course you can point to somewhere that slow drivers have been called "the very worst type of drivers".

Nobody has claimed it's the worst behaviour on the roads - just that it's yet another example of driving behaviour that, when coupled with a lack of consideration for it's impact on others, contributes to making our roads that bit more dangerous and that bit less pleasant for all users

Macy0161 · 11-06-2021 9:34am

tomasrojo wrote: »

parking on a footpath, even blocking it entirely: what else can you do?

And with the magic hover cars that don't have to drive on the footpath to park.

blackwhite · 11-06-2021 9:34am

tomasrojo wrote: »

All the same, the scenario in question was one where there was a long "queue" of traffic traveling at 60km/h, and they couldn't find a gap in oncoming traffic to pass over a distance of 15km.

How far off capacity is this road?

On road where only 1-2km of the 15 are suitable for safe overtaking (with the N59 being a prime example right here on this thread), it doesn't need to be anywhere near capacity for the coincidence of meeting oncoming traffic in the 2-3 safe overtaking overtaking spots

tomasrojo · 11-06-2021 9:39am

blackwhite wrote: »

On road where only 1-2km of the 15 are suitable for safe overtaking (with the N59 being a prime example right here on this thread), it doesn't need to be anywhere near capacity for the coincidence of meeting oncoming traffic in the 2-3 safe overtaking overtaking spots

Yes, but I was also thinking of the long "queue" of drivers going at 60km/h, coupled with the inability to find a gap to pass.

I suppose I'm thinking back to those drives out to Connemara. When I found that scenario, the road was what I'd regard as fairly close to capacity.

Paddigol · 11-06-2021 9:43am

Weepsie wrote: »

In fact, I would say pulling into the left to let traffic pass, is then creating an obstruction and more likely to cause some for of legal trouble.

Did someone on here not put up a recording recently where, after pulling in slightly to allow vehicles pass, he then was close passed by another vehicle rushing to overtake him, and the cyclist was fined when presenting the recording to Gardai as it was deemed he was 'cycling erratically'?

I certainly wouldn't be advocating everyone driving slower than the car behind them pull over to allow cars to squeeze past.

There's no doubting the frustration cause by ridiculously slow moving cars at the head of traffic. It's very rare though. A bit of cop on and patience in equal measure would make travelling by road a much more enjoyable and safer experience for everyone. TBH, in my experience on the roads, driving and cycling, there are more people driving 20% over the speed limit on any road than 20% under it. I know which I think is more of a danger to others.

tomasrojo · 11-06-2021 9:53am

The article also never made it very clear what "inadequate speed" meant either, though it implied that it was a speed that would frustrate other drivers. That could be any speed up to and even exceeding the speed limit, especially in 30km/h zones.

Hurrache · 11-06-2021 9:54am

Some set of cogs on this
https://twitter.com/adamtranter/status/1403266835827539969

tomasrojo · 11-06-2021 9:55am

Paddigol wrote: »

TBH, in my experience on the roads, driving and cycling, there are more people driving 20% over the speed limit on any road than 20% under it. I know which I think is more of a danger to others.

Yeah,I think people remember slow drivers more vividly than people who are breaking the speed limit by the same amount that they themselves regard as acceptable, but there are way more of the latter.

blackwhite · 11-06-2021 10:02am

tomasrojo wrote: »

Yes, but I was also thinking of the long "queue" of drivers going at 60km/h, coupled with the inability to find a gap to pass.

I suppose I'm thinking back to those drives out to Connemara. When I found that scenario, the road was what I'd regard as fairly close to capacity.

I think in that situation, the small stretch of road being occupied by the rolling roadblock is at close to capacity - possibly only in that direction also, but the section immediately ahead of it on the road is not going to be anywhere near capacity.

The extension of that logic is that the section of road 1 car length long is at full capacity whenever a car is present - which is clearly a fallacy

tomasrojo · 11-06-2021 10:04am

blackwhite wrote: »

I think in that situation, the small stretch of road being occupied by the rolling roadblock is at close to capacity - possibly only in that direction also, but the section immediately ahead of it on the road is not going to be anywhere near capacity.

The extension of that logic is that the section of road 1 car length long is at full capacity whenever a car is present - which is clearly a fallacy

In practice though, when I was driving a van on N roads as part of my job, I never came across this scenario of a road barely in use with a long queue of traffic behind a vehicle going at 60km/h.

I suppose I might have been in such a "queue" while just regarding it as a bit slower than usual.

I did, obviously, come across ten or more cars behind a tractor or the like, but that's the archetypal slow-moving vehicle that's hard to pass.

magicbastarder · 11-06-2021 10:07am

i used to drive all over the country about 20 years ago, before the motorways were built. generally speaking, i was either doing 55mph, or 10mph through places like skeheenarinky. there wasn't much middle ground of 40mph.

Tombo2001 · 11-06-2021 10:12am

blackwhite wrote: »

There's some heavy strawmanning going on here - unless of course you can point to somewhere that slow drivers have been called "the very worst type of drivers".

Nobody has claimed it's the worst behaviour on the roads - just that it's yet another example of driving behaviour that, when coupled with a lack of consideration for it's impact on others, contributes to making our roads that bit more dangerous and that bit less pleasant for all users

Its not strawmanning at all.

I am painting a hypothesis - which is that people who will complain about slow drivers are the same people that will think nothing of and have no particular issue with breaking lights slightly late, driving slightly over the speed limit, driving while on the phone, driving over the white line etc.

Much like the cyclist - the slow driver is annoying for the vast populace of drivers. But its real stretch to start making out that they are a menace on the roads when there are so many other forms of dangerous driving.

Address all those other issues first and then talk about slow drivers.

Its like with cycling - put in proper cycling infrastructure first and then we'll have a conversation about hi vis.

When the sign says 'Speed Kills' they arent talking about slow drivers.

tomasrojo · 11-06-2021 10:14am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i used to drive all over the country about 20 years ago, before the motorways were built. generally speaking, i was either doing 55mph, or 10mph through places like skeheenarinky. there wasn't much middle ground of 40mph.

Magnificent name

Tombo2001 · 11-06-2021 10:17am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i used to drive all over the country about 20 years ago, before the motorways were built. generally speaking, i was either doing 55mph, or 10mph through places like skeheenarinky. there wasn't much middle ground of 40mph.

I'm wondering should I google if there really is a place called skeheenarinky......would I be really dumb if I did that.......

carfinder · 11-06-2021 10:18am

Weepsie wrote: »

You must have a different rules of the road to the rest of us.

It's advised that tractors keep left, and to give way to traffic that is already overtaking, but it doesn't say it is required to pull in.

Also, Rules of the road are guidelines, not statute. There are laws on not creating obstructions, but there is nothing there about "letting the road breathe" as you so put it.

In fact, I would say pulling into the left to let traffic pass, is then creating an obstruction and more likely to cause some for of legal trouble.

You are, of course, incorrect. There are several instances of prosecutions for failing to pull in, the most infamous being a tractor driver in Mayo a few years ago who caused a tailback estimated at 80 to 100 vehicles - he got prosecuted, fined and lost his licence - I think there was a link to the media coverage on that particular example, earlier in the thread

blackwhite · 11-06-2021 10:21am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i used to drive all over the country about 20 years ago, before the motorways were built. generally speaking, i was either doing 55mph, or 10mph through places like skeheenarinky. there wasn't much middle ground of 40mph.

I used to similar around for sport - covering mostly Connacht but bits of Ulster and Leinster as well. There were roads you'd come to expect meeting certain types of driver.

N17, N59 and N84 in particular seemed to be magnets for drivers who'd tip along at between 60-70km/h, regardless of the limit. Could be 100, could be 50, they'd still be sitting at the same speed.

I did notice it seemed more prevalent in Connacht than anywhere else - which makes me wonder is there some demographics at play with older drivers

tomasrojo · 11-06-2021 10:22am

carfinder wrote: »

You are, of course, incorrect. There are several instances of prosecutions for failing to pull in, the most infamous being a tractor driver in Mayo a few years ago who caused a tailback estimated at 80 to 100 vehicles - he got prosecuted, fined and lost his licence - I think there was a link to the media coverage on that particular example, earlier in the thread

That's the only one I've heard of. I don't think it's a very common occurrence. It does't appear to be a specific offence anyway, and it was a fairly extreme case, as he was holding up about 100 vehicles, going at only 20km/h, and then didn't bother paying the FPN the garda issued.

Weepsie · 11-06-2021 10:26am

carfinder wrote: »

You are, of course, incorrect. There are several instances of prosecutions for failing to pull in, the most infamous being a tractor driver in Mayo a few years ago who caused a tailback estimated at 80 to 100 vehicles - he got prosecuted, fined and lost his licence - I think there was a link to the media coverage on that particular example, earlier in the thread

That's for creating an obstruction which is specifically legislated against.

There is not a specific law saying that you have to do so for faster moving traffic.

The onus in most of the act is on the overtaking traffic to ensure it is safe.

1 extreme example which is very much an outlier does not mean much.

carfinder · 11-06-2021 10:27am

tomasrojo wrote: »

That's the only one I've heard of. I don't think it's a very common occurrence. It does't appear to be a specific offence anyway, and it was a fairly extreme case, as he was holding up about 100 vehicles, going at only 20km/h, and then didn't bother paying the FPN the garda issued.

Yes, you seem to be at pains to water down my point but regardless of the context and nuances you are trying to portray, it neatly demonstrates the obligation of slow moving vehicles to pull in - and counters Weepsie's incorrect assertion, which was the point I was making!

tomasrojo · 11-06-2021 10:30am

Yeah, the judge found him guilty on the grounds of driving without reasonable consideration. It only came before her because he didn't pay the fixed-charge penalty notice, and it was a pretty extreme example anyway.

Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

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