The Boggers Log

Laineyfrecks · 07-06-2021 7:27pm

I'd put it down to a bad day & move on! We all have them hopefully the next session will give you a bit of confidence! Best of luck with the plan

Swashbuckler · 07-06-2021 9:35pm

I don't really know much about Hansen plans but are those sessions meant to be run at target pace or current fitness level?

Murph_D · 07-06-2021 9:47pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I don't really know much about Hansen plans but are those sessions meant to be run at target pace or current fitness level?

They are meant to be run at goal pace, but the goal is supposed to be realistic based on a recent performance - TbL at least has a recent 5k to go on which should be a reasonable indicator given his vast experience. The first few HMP tempo sessions can be difficult alright. This schedule is more difficult than the 18-week version which has a gentler introduction (three weeks of 3m @ HMP for that session).

ThebitterLemon · 07-06-2021 9:54pm

Murph_D wrote: »

They are meant to be run at goal pace, but the goal is supposed to be realistic based on a recent performance - TbL at least has a recent 5k to go on which should be a reasonable indicator given his vast experience. The first few can be difficult alright. This schedule is more difficult than the 18-week version which has a gentler introduction (three weeks of 3m @ HMP for that session).

Thanks D

I was wondering this too, but I reckoned it must be goal pace as there’s no transition of paces. Anyway I’m hoping on the day I won’t be too far away from 6.40 pace

TbL

Murph_D · 07-06-2021 10:05pm

Look back at Ferris's virtual DCM last year - a sub-3 at 53 off generic Hanson method, but conservative about goal pace in the early stages of the plan.

ThebitterLemon · 09-06-2021 11:16pm

Week 2/12 Hanson’s HM plan.

Man this is tough!

I think the fast 5k TT I did a few weeks ago gave me a completely inflated sense of my fitness levels and ability. I thought I’d sail through this plan and easily manage sub 90 for the Half so I set a target of 6.40 average pace. It’s a bit early to be doubting oneself and I’ll stick with the 6.40 average for now…

Mon: body was a little weary after the weekend’s running and I left it till late in the evening to go out in miserable rainy weather.

Plan called for 10 miles easy, got 4 miles easy done finishing up at the pitch where my daughter was playing for the senior women. She scored 4 lovely points and I got soaked to the skin!

Tue: plan 8 miles easy
Actual 5 miles easy, I actually felt like I was going to vomit throughout this run but managed to get it done and went to bed very early.

Wed: plan 6x1k @ 5-10k pace off 400m jog.
Headed into Dangan to do this and I didn’t feel too fazed by this after last weeks 3x1 mile, however that soon changed. Got a 1.5 mile warm up done and then hit the double pitch for the reps. First two were awful, 3rd and 4th slightly better and 5th and 6th were hell, I actually struggled to finish the 6th one, almost stopping to walk with 200m to go

Way way tougher than last weeks 3x1 mile session, the only consolation being I finished it.

Rep paces: 6.17; 6.18; 6.15; 6.25; 6.22; 6.26

Death march 1 mile cool down plod!

I’ve got to do 5 miles @ HM pace in the next 2/3 days and I’m dreading it after the fail at 4 miles last Saturday but I’ll plod on and hope to find some strength and fitness over the next two weeks. If I don’t see improvement then I’ll drop my target.

TbL

OOnegative · 10-06-2021 7:37am

Don’t be afraid to drop ten seconds or so off goal pace in training C, most of the Tempo/LT stuff I done for my last half was ten seconds slower than the pace I ran for the actual half. Race day atmosphere and adrenaline come into play on the day.

Plus I’m younger, faster and much better looking than you!!!!

shotgunmcos · 10-06-2021 8:38am

The whole ethos of the Hanson method is dialing your goal pace in, on fatigued legs, body and mind.

OONeg makes sense (apart from the good looking bit

) but the fatigue and "dread" of the key goal pace sessions are hallmarks of the method.

Stick with it and get it done. In the Hanson thread on the main forum I mentioned that you need a base and its going to be tough anyway.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

.....However the method is tough and you need to be ready for it. Ideally you will get a base fitness together as the "Sessions of substance" begin in earnest week 2.

The 5 mile is really your key session, not the 6x1k, which is a tough one in its own right. The Hansons workouts come thick and fast. Its all about recovery between them. Take that seriously, execute the workouts and you will feel tired but great. On the day, it will pay back in spades. The goal pace will feel comfortable and when it gets tough, you will smile knowing you have pushed through tougher in training.

Murph_D · 10-06-2021 8:59am

Some (myself included) use a heart rate monitor on the tempo runs to check if the chosen pace is sustainable. If the HR is climbing to LT and beyond in the second half of the tempos, for instance, it would suggest you’re not there yet (plenty of advice on the dedicated Hanson thread).

I’m not suggesting this is the case, by the way. And I wouldn’t be too disheartened by a tough speed session, especially on grass. Again, you might try thinking 5-10k effort rather than pace (although I know you like to keep it simple).

You’re right - it’s a tough plan. But you’re a tough old bogger too.

ThebitterLemon · 10-06-2021 12:18pm

Thanks for the posts and messages guys, great stuff.

I’m going to stick with the plan for another two weeks, I’ll trim the easy mileage but stick with the two sessions and the LR.

There are HMP 5 & 6 mile runs every week for the next few weeks and I won’t sweat it if I don’t average 6.40 pace, but I’d ideally like to see me come closer to it.

If in 2 weeks I’m not coping I’ll drop into the last 8 weeks of the Hanson 18 week plan, that seems a little less intense.

Thanks &#55357;&#56911;&#55356;&#57339;

TbL

Swashbuckler · 10-06-2021 2:37pm

I'm sure this will prove an unpopular comment as I'm dragging the shoes back into the conversation but are you basing your target pace off the 5K in the Alphafly? And are you now back training in your trusty Vomero's?

I know a few good deals if you fancy upgrading to some better training shoes

(Not that I disagree with any of the good advice above). Just something to think about.

ThebitterLemon · 13-06-2021 5:45pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I'm sure this will prove an unpopular comment as I'm dragging the shoes back into the conversation but are you basing your target pace off the 5K in the Alphafly? And are you now back training in your trusty Vomero's?

I know a few good deals if you fancy upgrading to some better training shoes

(Not that I disagree with any of the good advice above). Just something to think about.

Yep P the 5k was in the magic carpets and I know they helped with the time but I was still expecting to do the sessions a bit quicker even in the clogs!

I think I’ll stick with the Vomero and think of their extra weight as a training aid

I’ll only wear the Aplhaflys for racing

TbL

ThebitterLemon · 13-06-2021 5:46pm

Completed week 2/12 Hanson’s HM plan.

Still a shock to the system but I’m just going to suck it up and do my best to get through it.

Plan weekly miles: 56
Actual miles: almost 49

Thur: body was very tired and stiff after Wednesdays session, only managed 4 miles very gentle recovery with my daughter.

Fri: young lad had a GA match in Westside, so I parked up and just plodded along local roads. Hamstring was very tight so took it handy. Got 5 miles easy done.

Sat: plan session wu/cd with 5 miles @ HMP. Was very wary of this after last Saturdays 4 mile equivalent where I completely died. Spent a lot more time stretching and trying to convince myself I could do the session. Got 1.5 miles warm up done and started into the faster stuff. The first mile came in slower than last weeks first mile but I wasn’t overly concerned as I was hoping for a better overall average pace.

Mile 2 & 3 were the best of the lot, mile 4 wasn’t comfortable but not dying however I did start to fade on mile 5 and was a bit disappointed with the split. Walked for a couple of mins before jogging home for just over 8.6 miles.

Splits: 6.47; 6.41; 6.41; 6.47 & 6.54

Still a good chunk off the planned HMP (6.40) but I’m going to continue with that goal and see where it takes me.

Sun: plan was for 14 mile LR. My daughter was doing 12k and asked me to do the first bit with her, didn’t really suit me as I didn’t want to be out on my feet for over 2 hours but I’ve spent ages encouraging her to get into the running (and she’s doing her own HM plan) so I didn’t want to let her down.

Plodded around the first 10k with her around 10.30 pace before finishing up the 14 miles in almost 2.20. Longer on my hoofs than I wanted but hopefully it’ll help with the stamina.

3 x 1 hour functional strength routines this week

Heading to Waterford on Wednesday for 10 days so hoping to find some decent running routes!

TbL

Murph_D · 13-06-2021 6:17pm

Good point on the pre-tempo stretches. We had a good Hanson group going last year and one of the features was getting in a good dynamic warmup pre-session, whether the specific Hanson-specified routine or something equally undignified.

skyblue46 · 13-06-2021 7:12pm

OK C I'll say something here at risk of upsetting the Cult of Hanson :pac: There is no magic plan that suits everyone. If there was then Daniels, Tinman, Salazar et al would have signed on the dole. Stazza wouldn't have a crew, Swashbuckler would be on board and AMK wouldn't be changing plans and coaches monthly, Different styles of training suit different people. The thoughts of sucking up 14 weeks of uncomfortable and worrying training in the hope of the big pay day wouldn't be for me. Don't be afraid to tweak it so that you can enjoy it. That would be the least you deserve after everything you have been through.

ThebitterLemon · 13-06-2021 7:23pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

OK C I'll say something here at risk of upsetting the Cult of Hanson :pac: There is no magic plan that suits everyone. If there was then Daniels, Tinman, Salazar et al would have signed on the dole. Stazza wouldn't have a crew, Swashbuckler would be on board and AMK wouldn't be changing plans and coaches monthly, Different styles of training suit different people. The thoughts of sucking up 14 weeks of uncomfortable and worrying training in the hope of the big pay day wouldn't be for me. Don't be afraid to tweak it so that you can enjoy it. That would be the least you deserve after everything you have been through.

Thanks S

In a way I’m kinda lost/in no mans land without L to guide. I used just look at his e mail and run whatever was in front of me without question as it always seemed to suit/improve me.

I’m already trimming the easy miles of the Hanson plan as I don’t think I need that volume for a half (hoping years of muscle memory mileage kicks in)

I’m trying to stick to the two sessions and the LR. The first session is the faster repeats and surprisingly I’m finding this marginally easier than the HMP tempos! I won’t sweat it if the pace is a bit off for another few weeks as I build up some stamina.

I might be delusional but I really wouldn’t be happy with just dipping under 90 mins after 12 weeks of training.

I do like the plans simplicity and that stopped me tinkering with the sessions as I’d only be making it up as I go along. (I know less than nothing about coaching)

Thanks

TbL

MrMacPhisto · 13-06-2021 7:39pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

OK C I'll say something here at risk of upsetting the Cult of Hanson :pac: There is no magic plan that suits everyone. If there was then Daniels, Tinman, Salazar et al would have signed on the dole. Stazza wouldn't have a crew, Swashbuckler would be on board and AMK wouldn't be changing plans and coaches monthly, Different styles of training suit different people. The thoughts of sucking up 14 weeks of uncomfortable and worrying training in the hope of the big pay day wouldn't be for me. Don't be afraid to tweak it so that you can enjoy it. That would be the least you deserve after everything you have been through.

I am an aforementioned Hanson cult member. I absolutely agree with Skyblue's sentiment, but......

It is only week 2. It is a tough plan. It is simple and there is no hiding. It may or may not suit you but if you don't stick with it, you will never know.

From my experience, tempo race pace sessions are never easy. The next two weeks are the same 5 mile HMP sessions. Just when you are about to feel like you are getting to grips, the following week will break your heart with an extra mile added. Thats the progression.

The shift to strength sessions compared to 5-10k speed will be a breath of fresh air when you arrive there. I would be inclined to run your speed workouts closer to 10k pace rather than 5k. I also think Swashbuckler has a good point re the shoes. The Saucony Endorphin speed is a great shoe for tempo and speed sessions (around 130 euro in some places). The vomeros are great for the easy stuff but something different might give you a psychological edge for the tougher days. Keep the magic ones for racing

After the 12 weeks, and a race to track your progress, then make a judgement call on whether it is the plan or style of training for you going forward.

As Skyblue says, there are plenty of ways to skin this particular cat etc but ya won't know unless ya give it a good go.

Mar Azul · 13-06-2021 7:52pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

OK C I'll say something here at risk of upsetting the Cult of Hanson :pac: There is no magic plan that suits everyone. If there was then Daniels, Tinman, Salazar et al would have signed on the dole. Stazza wouldn't have a crew, Swashbuckler would be on board and AMK wouldn't be changing plans and coaches monthly, Different styles of training suit different people. The thoughts of sucking up 14 weeks of uncomfortable and worrying training in the hope of the big pay day wouldn't be for me. Don't be afraid to tweak it so that you can enjoy it. That would be the least you deserve after everything you have been through.

I think you make an excellent point but I feel sticking with it will stand to him. It's only one training block. It may identify some weakness in his running and help develop it, whether it be physical or perhaps even the mental side.
He may learn more about what type of runner he is and post Hanson make changes accordingly.

skyblue46 · 13-06-2021 8:02pm

Mar Azul wrote: »

I think you make an excellent point but I feel sticking with it will stand to him. It's only one training block. It may identify some weakness in his running and help develop it, whether it be physical or perhaps even the mental side.
He may learn more about what type of runner he is and post Hanson make changes accordingly.

True. I'm primarily taking his recent history into account. Also as a fellow 50 something I understand that "only one training block" might mean one of ones last handful of chances to improve. :pac: After losing 6 months to PF I just want to be able to run. A plan that pushes me to the point of failing wouldn't be for me.

Edit: I also feel that Hanson is totally alien to the style of coaching C got from L.

MrMacPhisto · 13-06-2021 8:13pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

True. I'm primarily taking his recent history into account. Also as a fellow 50 something I understand that "only one training block" might mean one of ones last handful of chances to improve. :pac: After losing 6 months to PF I just want to be able to run. A plan that pushes me to the point of failing wouldn't be for me.

Very good points.

I think Itziger might be a good man to chime in here, given his relatively recent experience and his Sensei age bracket. If I recall correctly, he was struggling a little bit with the 2 sessions and moderate pace Long Run each week.

Dialling back the LR pace to more easy running pace while increasing the gap between session days by an extra day would be something I might consider as a master runner. The money in the plan is the tempo race pace days and the strength sessions.

I think TBL is probably pretty good at listening to the body at this point. These plans do approach red lines at points so that is something that really needs to be watched.

I think at +50, trying a different plan is very much a good idea, especially if you are trying to find something to bring you to a new level.

Itziger · 14-06-2021 7:55am

MrMacPhisto wrote: »

Very good points.

I think Itziger might be a good man to chime in here, given his relatively recent experience and his Sensei age bracket. If I recall correctly, he was struggling a little bit with the 2 sessions and moderate pace Long Run each week.

Dialling back the LR pace to more easy running pace while increasing the gap between session days by an extra day would be something I might consider as a master runner. The money in the plan is the tempo race pace days and the strength sessions.

I think TBL is probably pretty good at listening to the body at this point. These plans do approach red lines at points so that is something that really needs to be watched.

I think at +50, trying a different plan is very much a good idea, especially if you are trying to find something to bring you to a new level.

Who, me? Yeah, my two cents worth. First off, I've never seen let alone done the HM Hansons. I've only done the full plan. My question earlier was about doing 16k at HM pace...... Seriously, seriously doubt I could do that. But if we're talking about the marathon plan, yeah I'll chime in.

There's no doubt it is challenging. I was very wary of two sessions in 3 days. In fact one thing I tweaked was the Wednesday rest day. For an ould fella, I thought doing speed on Tuesday, nothing on Wed and marathon pace on Thursday was too hard so I did a little rec run each Wednesday. As for the 'Masters' angle. Yes, I wonder now, two years down the line if I could do the plan again. I've had a terrible 3 months of injury (hip, It band, knee) and am only just coming out of it. Did 10k yesterday. Longest run in ages. So for me now I'm back to doubting that I could handle speed and strength stuff and 5 sessions in 10 or 11 days. If I were to do the plan again I think I'd have to tweak a couple of things. The speed as such might have to be binned and instead I'd do 'Strength' on the Tuesdays. Either that or spacing out the sessions. Only problem there is that then you might be missing out on the all-important accumulated fatigue. Questions, questions.

I will say that I enjoyed the challenge of the plan and I do think changing things up in terms of type of training is good. You can't be doing the same thing year in, year out. Both the physical and mental boredom can't be good!

Murph_D · 14-06-2021 10:24am

Yep, the Hanson HM is not the same as Hanson M plan, although the philosophy is probably the same and the structure is near identical, scaled down in terms of tempo miles but of course those tempo miles are at half marathon pace, and they go up to seven miles.

Seven miles at HM pace is some workout, and if you're accumulating lactate it's not going to be pretty, so obviously the choice of target pace and effort is crucial.

Like the marathon version, it's the emphasis on goal pace in this plan that sets it apart. I've done both this plan and Pfitzingers's Faster Road Running HM plan - by comparison, Pfitzinger has hardly any runs at goal pace.

To complicate things, TbL is doing a 12-week version of the plan, which effectively means jumping in at week 7, to a schedule that also has greater mileage than the vanilla version. In my opinion this extra intensity is not needed for an 88-min target, especially given TbL's history of back trouble and other issues. So it's not surprising that the first couple of weeks have been a shock to the system.

I think, as with all plans, we have to distinguish between the method and the execution of the method. Any method can be tweaked, but the tweak will only be successful if you understand the method.

MrMacPhisto · 14-06-2021 10:57am

I have completed the advanced marathon plan 3 times (with a few tweaks), the Half plan two times (18 week version) and a couple of the 5-10k Hanson training blocks.

The 12 week half plan really throws you in at the deep end. 3x1mile at 5k pace is not an easy session even when you are in peak shape for a 5k race! The 18 week plan breaks you in a lot more gently. That is the main reason why I would suggest doing the speed sessions at 10k pace.

The method/ethos is the same throughout all the plans. 2 sessions per week (tues and weds) and a LR, with cumulative fatigue. As Murph says, the only difference really is the intensity. Running +5 miles at HMP or Strength sessions at 10secs per mile quicker is flirting with threshold pace. Running at or slightly lower than suggested paces should help significantly. Better to be a foot back from the cliff edge rather than an inch beyond.

Every time I have done these plans, either for a marathon, a half or a 5/10k I have always had the same thought. "I don't think I could possibly maintain this pace for the full race distance".

A Hansons Masters Training plan, that could sell??? A 9 day cycle could work well rather than 7 days.

It'll be very interesting to see how you get on as the weeks progress TBL. It will make fun reading. If it doesn't work out then so be it. Just be careful with the subtle difference between finding the training hard and training TOO hard.

ThebitterLemon · 16-06-2021 4:51pm

Start of week 3/12 Hanson’s hm plan

Thanks for all the pointers and advice, great collective resource, appreciate it.

The plan this week has over 60 miles, I won’t do that and will trim some easy miles while still trying to get north of 50 done.

Mon: physioterrorist bashed me up, but was happy that although the body was stiff and fatigued the back hadn’t inflamed. Was a bit tender afterwards so left it close to six to get out and just did an easy ramble around a local route:

Plan: 10 miles easy
Actual: 5.2 miles very easy.

Tue: plan rest/cross train.

Actual: 6 miles easy reversing yesterday’s route and adding a little bit. The weather down here is sh1te, cold, wet and windy, needed a running jacket

#wherethefcuksthesummer

1 hour functional strength routine.

Wed: plan wu/cd 8 x 800m @ 5-10k pace off 400 jog recovery

Back into Dangan for this, for some reason I don’t advance stress about these sessions like I do for the HMP ones. (but maybe I now should:()

Did 2 miles warm up and then onto the double pitch for the reps. Bit of a strange day, apart from badly needing the jacks the body felt fairly good, so I thought 6.20 pace should be ok. Not sure if it was the number of reps but my mind started telling me I wasn’t liking these.

Demons started taking control and at the end of rep 6 and 7 I walked for a few seconds before starting to jog. “You’re too auld for this sh1t” side of my brain definitely took over during rep 7 and the split was very poor. Out of nowhere “toughen up princess” mindset kicked in and the last rep was one of the fastest. Tough workout and I need to learn to mentally improve, was a big weakness in the past.

Splits: 6.22; 6.20; 6.23; 6.20; 6.24; 6.25; 6.36 & 6.19

Just over 8.5 miles for the day

Second jab tomorrow and then off to Waterford for 10 days

TbL

Murph_D · 16-06-2021 8:53pm

FFS. All ye young feckers getting the second jab before me.

'Toughen up, Princess' - good one! Must remember that and apply to myself.

ThebitterLemon · 16-06-2021 9:00pm

Murph_D wrote: »

FFS. All ye young feckers getting the second jab before me.

'Toughen up, Princess' - good one! Must remember that and apply to myself.

That’s why I was hoping I wouldn’t be offered the AZ jab D, the delay between the shots would potentially effect ability to travel.

Just send the HSE your recent 5k time and they’ll deduce you in the “at risk” category

TbL

Laineyfrecks · 16-06-2021 9:15pm

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

That’s why I was hoping I wouldn’t be offered the AZ jab D, the delay between the shots would potentially effect ability to travel.

Just send the HSE your recent 5k time and they’ll deduce you in the “at risk” category

TbL

:eek:
Looks like we can go together so D

ThebitterLemon · 16-06-2021 9:45pm

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

:eek:
Looks like we can go together so D

Jazus, I can’t even get a vaccine date ahead of that auld lad

TbL

ThebitterLemon · 20-06-2021 7:58pm

End of week 3/12 Hanson’s hm plan

Thur: mental day! Was heading to Waterford with the Clan for a few days holiday, had to go into Galway for my jab, needed to go into the office for a meeting and still hadn’t packed, so was up at the crack of dawn.

Plan: 10 miles easy
Actual: 4 miles recovery. Body was very very stiff starting off but I was pleased to see that it started easing out as I got into it.

Mrs TbL not happy that I was taking up room in the car boot with foam mat, foam roller, Thera gun, light weight and resistance bands! My suggestion that I was packing in priority order and she could stay at home didn’t go down well

Fri: after a day in Dunmore East and Tramore, I got a chance to get out in the evening and got some easy miles done around the perimeter of Waterford Castle Island. After 5 hours in the car yesterday and a few more hours today, the hips, glutes and back were aching. Even a couple of swims didn’t provide any relief.

Plan: 10 miles easy
Actual: 7 miles very easy. Nice run around the island on a predominantly grass trail, came across badgers, squirrels, deer, pheasant and something that looked like a stout or mink (I ain’t exactly David Attenborough

) Was going to finish at 4 miles but came across my daughter out doing her own run and we decided to do the loop again.

Sat:
plan: wu/cd 5 miles @ HMP (6.40)

actual: after breakfast in the hotel I got the ferry off the island and drove to the Waterford Greenway. Fantastic resource for running with an excellent smooth tarred surface. Was surprised that there wasn’t way more runners out on it. Got a 2 mile warm up done and started with the faster stuff. Don’t know if it was the novelty of the Greenway, the adrenaline from others out and about or an improvement in fitness but this run went very well. Thought I’d gone out too fast on miles 1 & 2 as they came in on target and when I turned at mile two I thought I was in trouble because a quarter of the way into the 3 rd mile the lap pace was still at 7.30 pace. I worked harder and got things back on track. It was warm and muggy and while not dying yet I knew I was working very hard. Mile 5 was definitely extremely tough but I wanted to avoid the big fade I’ve had the previous two weeks, so despite heaving lungs I toughened it out but was begging for it to be over. Watch beeped and I nearly fell on the railway track in my haste to stop! Walked a bit before a short jog to the car. Spent the day in Dungarvan and got a nice swim in at Clonea beach.

Splits: 6.38; 6.41; 6.38; 6.39; 6.46

Happy with the improvement although the thought of running an additional 8 miles at that pace is daunting!

Sun:

Plan: 12 miles
Actual: tight for time and very tight lower calf and foot muscles meant this was touch and go! Had to dash back from the kids doing Wibit in Dunmore East to have enough time before dinner to get this run done. Was worried about the foot but it did ease out a little as I trotted along. The Greenway was very quiet and I think I spotted only 2 other runners the whole time. Finished with a faster mile and an average of 8.17.

Very happy with the way this week went and hopefully I can layer further improvement on top in the coming weeks.

Plan weekly mileage: 63
Actual mileage: 51

Not concerned at all as the mileage leakage all came from planned easy miles and I might even trim the easy miles back further this week.

TbL

Murph_D · 20-06-2021 8:04pm

Came across a few stouts myself the other day. Cheers!

The Boggers Log

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