Facebook allowing removte working is the end of our tech boom.

Fred Cryton · 10-06-2021 12:41pm #1

Facebook allowing workers to live in around 7 other European countries will officially mark the end of the Dublin tech boom.

Who would want to pay the crazy Irish marginal rate of tax to fund a welfare class. Who would want to pay the high rents due to DCC hoovering up all supply to house that welfare class. And who would want to put up with that welfare class running amok in Dublin with anti-social behaviour.

Our trump card (of tech employees having to live and work in Ireland and pay income taxes here) is now gone. Party is over folks.

Smee_Again · 10-06-2021 12:43pm

Can you post without mentioning welfare?

As long as Facebook and other MNCs have their HQs etc here they will continue to hire staff locally.

Fred Cryton · 10-06-2021 12:44pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Can you post without mentioning welfare?

As long as Facebook and other MNCs have their HQs etc here they will continue to hire staff locally.

They will hire for the Dublin office but those employees won't have to be living here or paying income taxes here. Get it?

Former Former Former · 10-06-2021 12:45pm

Facebook will allow you to move country. Great.

Facebook will also modify your T&C to reflect your new country of residence. Let's see how that sits with some people.

Fred Cryton · 10-06-2021 12:47pm

Former Former Former wrote: »

Facebook will allow you to move country. Great.

Facebook will also modify your T&C to reflect your new country of residence. Let's see how that sits with some people.

It will sit fine with many people, especially if London is on the list of cities to live. If you're Italian, why live in Dublin and pay more taxes and same rent as London?

Smee_Again · 10-06-2021 12:47pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

They will hire for the Dublin office but those employees won't have to be living here or paying income taxes here. Get it?

That causes a lot of headaches for employers, contracts will state that employees need to be tax resident in the country of employment.

Problem solved.

Thelonious Monk · 10-06-2021 12:48pm

Did you ever think of emigrating Fred?

Fred Cryton · 10-06-2021 12:51pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

That causes a lot of headaches for employers, contracts will state that employees need to be tax resident in the country of employment.

Problem solved.

No, they've just said it's fine to move to 7 designated European countries, presumably because they are able to handle 7 other tax systems.

10-06-2021 12:55pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Facebook allowing workers to live in around 7 other European countries will officially mark the end of the Dublin tech boom.

Who would want to pay the crazy Irish marginal rate of tax to fund a welfare class. Who would want to pay the high rents due to DCC hoovering up all supply to house that welfare class. And who would want to put up with that welfare class running amok in Dublin with anti-social behaviour.

Our trump card (of tech employees having to live and work in Ireland and pay income taxes here) is now gone. Party is over folks.

Don't worry, they'll just raise income taxes on the middle class who are trapped here.

That's the Irish way of doing things.

Smee_Again · 10-06-2021 12:56pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No, they've just said it's fine to move to 7 designated European countries, presumably because they are able to handle 7 other tax systems.

So he did, I missed that.

The Indo are also reporting that he said

that staff in the company’s office must be present more than half fo (sic) the time.

Hard to call how much impact this will have.

Fred Cryton · 10-06-2021 12:59pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

So he did, I missed that.

The Indo are also reporting that he said

Hard to call how much impact this will have.

No it's a choice. You can either work in one of the 7 designated Euroepan counties, or for those who choose to stay in ireland they must be in the office at least half the time.

There is absolutely no way non-Irish will choose to live in Dublin and pay the rent and taxes here. This will have a huge impact.

Del2005 · 10-06-2021 1:03pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

It will sit fine with many people, especially if London is on the list of cities to live. If you're Italian, why live in Dublin and pay more taxes and same rent as London?

They will reduce the pay to match the country that you are resident in, companies have already dropped pay for people working from home due to no commuting costs.

The only reason why London pays more than Dublin is because of cost of living, so if you are living in Italy you'll get Italian pay not Irish pay.

wes · 10-06-2021 1:04pm

Tech companies have always been able to set up offices in other countries. Letting employees work remotely from other countries doesn't really change that. They could have easily setup offices anywhere as needed, before now.

suicide_circus · 10-06-2021 1:05pm

Theyre hear until the corpo tax goes up

10-06-2021 1:07pm

Some people are seriously in a complete state of denial about how working practices are going to change, going forward.

You can see it in their responses, they'll say absolutely anything to deny the truth.

It's genuinely hilarious.

listermint · 10-06-2021 1:10pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

It will sit fine with many people, especially if London is on the list of cities to live. If you're Italian, why live in Dublin and pay more taxes and same rent as London?

London is a third country outside the EU .

Frankly why anyone would move there right no I've no idea. the UK is a basket case.

GreeBo · 10-06-2021 1:10pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No, they've just said it's fine to move to 7 designated European countries, presumably because they are able to handle 7 other tax systems.

That's because Facebook are already tax resident in those countries, the employee isn't.

It isn't the end of anything, very few other companies are currently or willing to be in this position.

VinLieger · 10-06-2021 1:12pm

GreeBo wrote: »

That's because Facebook are already tax resident in those countries, the employee isn't.

It isn't the end of anything, very few other companies are currently or willing to be in this position.

Indeed the amount of work for a financial team required to run such a scheme is only possible by companies on a level similar to facebooks which is few and far between of any of our major big tech companies.

People who are calling this the end times are not aware of the complications and massive overheads involved in such scheme.

10-06-2021 1:13pm

GreeBo wrote: »

That's because Facebook are already tax resident in those countries, the employee isn't.

It isn't the end of anything, very few other companies are currently or willing to be in this position.

Big tech can, which are huge employers in Dublin. Those of us working for Irish companies can still opt to leave Dublin, as many of my work colleagues have already done.

Stop living in denial.

TefalBrain · 10-06-2021 1:15pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Facebook allowing workers to live in around 7 other European countries will officially mark the end of the Dublin tech boom.

Who would want to pay the crazy Irish marginal rate of tax to fund a welfare class. Who would want to pay the high rents due to DCC hoovering up all supply to house that welfare class. And who would want to put up with that welfare class running amok in Dublin with anti-social behaviour.

Our trump card (of tech employees having to live and work in Ireland and pay income taxes here) is now gone. Party is over folks.

Is it actually possible for you to write a single post without referring to welfare, social housing etc...

It's actually pathetic at this stage pal.

irelandrover · 10-06-2021 1:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Some people are seriously in a complete state of denial about how working practices are going to change, going forward.

You can see it in their responses, they'll say absolutely anything to deny the truth.

It's genuinely hilarious.

What have Facebook actually changed with this announcement?

You were always able to transfer from one Facebook office to another, you still need to be in the office 2 days a week so you still need to live in the more expensive cities because that's where Facebook have their offices.

This looks like a great headline from them but doesn't really change anything. You wont be able to work from a beach on the south coast of Spain if you need to be in the centre of Madrid 2 days a week.

Fred Cryton · 10-06-2021 1:18pm

GreeBo wrote: »

That's because Facebook are already tax resident in those countries, the employee isn't.

It isn't the end of anything, very few other companies are currently or willing to be in this position.

If it offers Facebook a competitive advantage, then that will be the direction of travel for the industry.

Not saying it will happen overnight but there will be significant medium term impact. We certainly cannot compete when it comes to rent, income tax or weather.

Fred Cryton · 10-06-2021 1:22pm

TefalBrain wrote: »

Is it actually possible for you to write a single post without referring to welfare, social housing etc...

It's actually pathetic at this stage pal.

Did you ever wonder where the money for all that welfare came from? Probably thought it fell from the sky?

talulon · 10-06-2021 1:23pm

Compensation will also be adjusted to place of residence so maybe not so good? https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56759151

HGVRHKYY · 10-06-2021 1:24pm

Del2005 wrote: »

They will reduce the pay to match the country that you are resident in, companies have already dropped pay for people working from home due to no commuting costs.

The only reason why London pays more than Dublin is because of cost of living, so if you are living in Italy you'll get Italian pay not Irish pay.

London is a global financial center, along with the likes of New York, Tokyo, Shanghai. All massive cities with huge populations. London pays more than Dublin for more than just COL, there are many more roles in all areas available there and they get the best talent from the likes of Oxbridge who are ranked amongst the top universities in the world. But then these are all contributors towards the COL of course

listermint · 10-06-2021 1:25pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Big tech can, which are huge employers in Dublin. Those of us working for Irish companies can still opt to leave Dublin, as many of my work colleagues have already done.

Stop living in denial.

Nothing has changed with this at all.

There's denial and there informed. You'll be moving tax code as you can always do with Facebook. To one of their local jurisdictions. The reality is that local jurisdiction will qualify for whatever the going rate is for that HR. So I also wouldn't expect to maintain the same pay. There's winners out of these announcements and its rarely the employee.

talulon · 10-06-2021 1:26pm

Del2005 wrote: »

They will reduce the pay to match the country that you are resident in, companies have already dropped pay for people working from home due to no commuting costs.

The only reason why London pays more than Dublin is because of cost of living, so if you are living in Italy you'll get Italian pay not Irish pay.

This is not completely true. American tech companies pay higher salaries here in Ireland compared with the cost of living and in some cases just higher salaries in order to attract people to work in this country.

listermint · 10-06-2021 1:27pm

HGVRHKYY wrote: »

London is a global financial center, along with the likes of New York, Tokyo, Shanghai. All massive cities with huge populations. London pays more than Dublin for more than just COL, there are many more roles in all areas available there and they get the best talent from the likes of Oxbridge who are ranked amongst the top universities in the world. But then these are all contributors towards the COL of course

London is dropping financial jobs like flies . It's lost trillions in investment. Unless the equivalency is recognised with the EU then this change is permanent. The writings on the wall.

TefalBrain · 10-06-2021 1:29pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Did you ever wonder where the money for all that welfare came from? Probably thought it fell from the sky?

There you go proving my point.

I heard it's people on welfare that are causing global warming and cancer. Also a lad in Tallaght on the dole invented Covid19 in his back shed whilst drinking cans of Dutch Gold :eek:

RulesOfNature · 10-06-2021 1:30pm

Del2005 wrote: »

They will reduce the pay to match the country that you are resident in, companies have already dropped pay for people working from home due to no commuting costs.

The only reason why London pays more than Dublin is because of cost of living, so if you are living in Italy you'll get Italian pay not Irish pay.

Who is doing this?

It sounds like absolute cancer, and would be the cause for severe kneecapping violence in another time.

10-06-2021 1:31pm

listermint wrote: »

Nothing has changed with this at all.

If you read past my first sentence you would realise that a lot has changed.

listermint · 10-06-2021 1:33pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you read past my first sentence you would realise that a lot has changed.

It hasn't . Most tech companies allowed this already. This isn't a new headline. They are now updating policies to formalise it. Unless you came from one of the locations they have a local office in though then it's not happening anyway.

Once again you will be moved to that geo for tax purposes. And any future decisions on pay will be related to that local HR pay rates not Dublin.

10-06-2021 1:34pm

listermint wrote: »

It hasn't . Most tech companies allowed this already. This isn't a new headline. They are now updating policies to formalise it. Unless you came from one of the locations they have a local office in though then it's not happening anyway.

Once again you will be moved to that geo for tax purposes. And any future decisions on pay will be related to that local HR pay rates not Dublin.

If you read past my first sentence you would realise that a lot has changed.

growleaves · 10-06-2021 1:34pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

It will sit fine with many people, especially if London is on the list of cities to live. If you're Italian, why live in Dublin and pay more taxes and same rent as London?

Workers are going to move to London to avoid high rents and supporting a welfare class? The South-East is the only area of the UK which makes a net profit.

Every other area of the UK stays afloat on subsidies and welfare - entire populations in the north of England are in a welfare trap.

If you're unhappy because the UK tax brackets have kept up with monetary inflation better than Irish ones then why not just say that?

irelandrover · 10-06-2021 1:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If you read past my first sentence you would realise that a lot has changed.

Can you just state what Facebook are changing with this.

What is possible now that wasnt possible before.

You could already move offices with facebook to move to a different country.

Dyr · 10-06-2021 1:43pm

And there was me thinking that Joe Biden pumping the global corporate tax rate to 15 per cent was the end of our tech boom

ah well

10-06-2021 1:45pm

If so, great. Scummy company. May whatever tech paradigm it takes to wipe them off this planet happen sooner rather than later.
We made our money. Adios data rapists.

Edit: feel free to take some tech bro hipsters with ya.

jimmycrackcorm · 10-06-2021 1:48pm

Del2005 wrote: »

They will reduce the pay to match the country that you are resident in, companies have already dropped pay for people working from home due to no commuting costs.

The only reason why London pays more than Dublin is because of cost of living, so if you are living in Italy you'll get Italian pay not Irish pay.

No companies have reduced pay due to no commuting costs and WFH.

GreeBo · 10-06-2021 1:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Big tech can, which are huge employers in Dublin. Those of us working for Irish companies can still opt to leave Dublin, as many of my work colleagues have already done.

Stop living in denial.

I'm working for big tech in Dublin, its incredibly restrictive as to where you can work, because there either needs to be a permanent legal entity in that country OR your current legal entity is deemed to have established a permanent location by your working there and as such becomes liable to pay corportate tax in that location.

Your Dublin entity specifically does not want to be paying tax in other countries, thats why they setup in Dublin in the first place!

The entity in the other locations would be tiny and not signing multi million dollar contracts.

Stop living in your own made up reality.

GreeBo · 10-06-2021 1:57pm

talulon wrote: »

This is not completely true. American tech companies pay higher salaries here in Ireland compared with the cost of living and in some cases just higher salaries in order to attract people to work in this country.

Sure, but they are not paying the same as they pay their employees in the states.
Facebook (and every other company) will alter your salary if you move country.

10-06-2021 1:58pm

So I'm in tech and it's not hugely unusual for people to work abroad for a few months of the year tbh. Obviously if you're abroad to point where tax changes etc that needs to be handled. It's only ever been a big problem in places I've worked if they're in a more controversial country. Eg China

Don't think this amounts to much of a tech bubble exploding either.. Roles are in abundance at the moment and I can't see that changing any time soon.

GreeBo · 10-06-2021 2:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

So I'm in tech and it's not hugely unusual for people to work abroad for a few months of the year tbh. Obviously if you're abroad to point where tax changes etc that needs to be handled. It's only ever been a big problem in places I've worked if they're in a more controversial country. Eg China

Don't think this amounts to much of a tech bubble exploding either.. Roles are in abundance at the moment and I can't see that changing any time soon.

Most of the time this happens because HR and finance are not made aware and the managers etc are not aware of the tax implications.
It is often the case that foreign employees take a holiday in home country and then work from there for a couple of weeks (especially if home is far away)
but there is no concrete definition on what defines a permanent location, its up to each country. India for example are pretty notorious for going after corporation tax in these scenarious.

Jim2007 · 10-06-2021 2:08pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

It will sit fine with many people, especially if London is on the list of cities to live. If you're Italian, why live in Dublin and pay more taxes and same rent as London?

Because for a start an Italian won’t get a permit to live in the UK. Most of your assertions are not even remotely based on facts nor knowledge of the industry.

Kermit.de.frog · 10-06-2021 2:12pm

Facebook have a huge HQ building under construction in D4 at the moment for 1000's of employees incidentally.

Yakov P. Golyadkin · 10-06-2021 2:25pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Facebook have a huge HQ building under construction in D4 at the moment for 1000's of employees incidentally.

We can use it to house the 'welfare class' referred to in the OP. All the employees are going to live in London.

10-06-2021 2:35pm

Yakov P. Golyadkin wrote: »

We can use it to house the 'welfare class' referred to in the OP. All the employees are going to live in London.

D4 is too far out of town for them.

And youd be breakin up deh communitie.

TheIrishGrover · 10-06-2021 2:36pm

Many MANY companies already do this and, as many have said, pay will be locally benchmarked. Do you really think Facebook (Or any company) are going to pay Dublin high-end wages for someone living in Spain or Portugal or wherever where the going equivalent rate is much lower?

I have two friends who availed of this in two different large tech companies and that's what happened. The companies offered people the chance to move to another country and made it abundantly clear that they would be paid the local equivalent for their skill level/job position/experience. For them, it was an attractive offer because they retained their job. They held onto some perks such as additional holidays for long service, pensions etc. but they were not on the same wage as Dublin.

This is not a new practice. AT ALL. And will change nothing. At ALL.

Pixel Eater · 10-06-2021 3:25pm

How does tax work if you're based abroad? Will you have to pay double tax?

In London, for example, tenants have to pay council tax which you don't have to pay in Ireland.

TheIrishGrover · 10-06-2021 4:39pm

Also....

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-57425636

.... The company has told employees "anyone whose role can be done remotely can request remote work".

..... Facebook's offices are expected to open to full capacity in October, but employees without permission to work remotely will have to come in at least half the time.....

So, yeah. Nothing new.

VinLieger · 10-06-2021 4:50pm

Pixel Eater wrote: »

How does tax work if you're based abroad? Will you have to pay double tax?

In London, for example, tenants have to pay council tax which you don't have to pay in Ireland.

What do you mean by double tax?

If you are living and working in a different country you will of course have to pay the taxes required by that country and locality.

Pixel Eater · 10-06-2021 5:14pm

VinLieger wrote: »

What do you mean by double tax?

If you are living and working in a different country you will of course have to pay the taxes required by that country and locality.

I mean you're earning the money in one country, say Ireland, you have to pay income tax, PRSI etc. do you also have to pay income tax/social security contributions in the country you're based in too? That would amount to one hell of a tax bill.

And if you're only paying the main tax in the country you earn the money, how can you avail of your resident country's services, like health, childcare and education?

Facebook allowing removte working is the end of our tech boom.

Comments