Facebook allowing removte working is the end of our tech boom.

hello2020

Liam32123 wrote: »

Party is over guys. Corporation Tax will be equal for big tech everywhere in Europe soon. Facebook's action was just the first of a long series.

And in the end, this is right. You cannot base forever your economy on the fortune of other countries' companies

How many years it will take for this new rule to come into play?

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Where do you get the idea that Irish income tax is higher than most continental income taxes?!

Yes, rents in Dublin in particular are expensive, but rents are also expensive in plenty of other cities with high demand.

I paid income tax in France, Belgium and Spain and absolutely is not cheaper and social contributions are much higher and there are often local taxes and various property charges to factor into it too.

You’d be working for Facebook Italia, as a local employee on local rates. That’s all it amounts to really.

People also often move here to spend several years in an English language environment. That’s actually a big draw and the cities here are very, very buzzing in normal times and also quite multicultural, friendly and have a lot more going for them than we tend to give ourselves credit for.

Liam32123

hello2020 wrote: »

How many years it will take for this new rule to come into play?

This year

Liam32123

Mr.S wrote: »

Ah now, so your suggesting that they pull all the investment they’ve poured into Ireland building up HQ’s to move to the Med for the weather ? Come on.

That is why I say it will happen 'slowly'. I revert your question: are you suggesting that they will remain forever in Ireland only because they invested in real estate here for HQ? Investments will remain for them (they might easily sell or rent)

Liam32123

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

If you earn the income in Ireland, you must pay the tax in Ireland. The eu operates a 'tax at source' system

Wrong. In Europe you pay income tax 'where you live' (for 183 days per year), despite the jurisdiction of your employer can be different

Sunny Disposition

It seems hard to believe when the economy turns, all my life that has been the way, people can’t believe big shifts will happen, even when they’ve seen a few.
Remote working is going to mean far fewer workers leaving their home countries, even their home towns. Of course there will always be people who want to see new things, but fewer in an industry like IT will need to. And the trend will likely increase as States get their regulations more in order.
It’s probably a good thing in Dublin, although some people would see this point as populism or nativism. The city has become too expensive for most people from Dublin, with deep ties to the area.

timmyntc

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Where do you get the idea that Irish income tax is higher than most continental income taxes?!

Yes, rents in Dublin in particular are expensive, but rents are also expensive in plenty of other cities with high demand.

I paid income tax in France, Belgium and Spain and absolutely is not cheaper and social contributions are much higher and there are often local taxes and various property charges to factor into it too.

You’d be working for Facebook Italia, as a local employee on local rates. That’s all it amounts to really.

People also often move here to spend several years in an English language environment. That’s actually a big draw and the cities here are very, very buzzing in normal times and also quite multicultural, friendly and have a lot more going for them than we tend to give ourselves credit for.

The "draw" of Ireland to a foreigner is usually the availability of jobs - quite a lot of MNC's have European R&D in Ireland, not in their other sites in Spain, Italy etc.

So if you want to work in those jobs, you cant work in the local site - you have to move to Ireland.
What this change now means, is that Irish R&D can be done from any site in Europe/7 named countries. Obviously you will get the local salary, but the need to be based in Dublin is no longer a thing. Which is enough for plenty of people to want to emigrate I'd expect.

Not the end of days, but definitely more than a "non-event".

Fred Cryton

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Where do you get the idea that Irish income tax is higher than most continental income taxes?!

Yes, rents in Dublin in particular are expensive, but rents are also expensive in plenty of other cities with high demand.

I paid income tax in France, Belgium and Spain and absolutely is not cheaper and social contributions are much higher and there are often local taxes and various property charges to factor into it too.

You’d be working for Facebook Italia, as a local employee on local rates. That’s all it amounts to really.

People also often move here to spend several years in an English language environment. That’s actually a big draw and the cities here are very, very buzzing in normal times and also quite multicultural, friendly and have a lot more going for them than we tend to give ourselves credit for.

Marginal income tax rates are lower in the UK. So an Italian would probably choose London over Dublin if they didn't want to move home to Italy. They'd pay less tax, the rents are roughly the same but the weather is better and better transportation.



Plenty also who would move home to Italy and would be happy to take the lower Italian salary. Money, especially gross salary, is not everything.



Nah, this is hugely negative for Dublin. Not in the short term, but human capital will leak out of the country or more likely just not come here at all in the first place.

Liam32123

Liam32123 wrote: »

No, they are just going to settle wherever else in Europe, given that taxation will be the same in any Member State. Don't you think they will definitely prefer countries like Greece, Spain and Italy for a better living?

No? There are other problems in these countries, often far worse than in Ireland. Also there's a new language to learn.

Gradius

Gradius wrote: »

Anecdote alert!

Every single person I know in Dublin is seriously contemplating leaving, or have already left. Including native Dubliners. All willing to take serious risks employment-wise rather than the alternative property trap.

Leprechaun economics, as mentioned elsewhere, may have it's comeuppance on the horizon.

It is odd then that rents haven't fallen. In Silicon Valley where this is in fact happening, in a non anecdotal fashion, rents have fallen.

Don't get me wrong I do know one guy who works for the Government who is down the country and I get a lot of his department are there but they are coming back in September.

The Facebook ruling may reduce some pressure off the market but not much. The 15% tax is a suggestion for now, and if equally applied won't affect Ireland much, except in the case where companies return to the US.

Sunny Disposition

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Marginal income tax rates are lower in the UK. So an Italian would probably choose London over Dublin if they didn't want to move home to Italy. They'd pay less tax, the rents are roughly the same but the weather is better and better transportation.



Plenty also who would move home to Italy and would be happy to take the lower Italian salary. Money, especially gross salary, is not everything.



Nah, this is hugely negative for Dublin. Not in the short term, but human capital will leak out of the country or more likely just not come here at all in the first place.

Is it hugely negative though? Dublin is overpriced and congested, is wealthy people leaving by choice who don't have deep roots in the area that negative at this moment in history? The Dublin economy has already overheated.

plodder

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

If you earn the income in Ireland, you must pay the tax in Ireland. The eu operates a 'tax at source' system

I thought it was based on your country of residence, which is where you spend more than six months of the year. That was the rule at one point (in Irish tax law), unless it has changed?

Dyr

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Is it hugely negative though? Dublin is overpriced and congested, is wealthy people leaving by choice who don't have deep roots in the area that negative at this moment in history? The Dublin economy has already overheated.

If our governments have shown one thing at all, its their commitment to propping up the property market no matter what

A way will be found. Moar students, Moar Deliveroo cyclists, Moar anything.

blackwhite

plodder wrote: »

I thought it was based on your country of residence, which is where you spend more than six months of the year. That was the rule at one point (in Irish tax law), unless it has changed?

Work is typically subject to income tax in the first instance where the work is performed.

Tax residency comes into it as a secondary level of levying income taxes.

If you are tax resident in Ireland - then all of your income is subject to Irish income tax, regardless of where you earned it. However, you will likely be entitled to a tax credit for any foreign taxes paid on the foreign income.

If you are not tax resident in Ireland - then only your Irish-earned income is subject to Irish income taxes. However, your country of tax residence will likely also tax the Irish-earned income, but with a tax credit (or local equivalent) granted for tax already paid in Ireland.


For the vast majority of people, it's never an issue as you will be tax resident wherever you are working - but that's not always the case.

flipflophead22

I am looking to relocate to spain early next year and wondered if i secure a remote role with a company do i just pay the tax in spain or?...

joseywhales

It does raise a point. It's unclear to me that the Irish revenue can track who spends 183 days in ireland. Like how? I can come in from belfast for example. So long as I don't register for any services, the bank transfers would be the only method but they could be registered to an social security number in another jurisdiction with lower income tax obligations. I'm not seeing how any government's plan to control taxation of remote workers. I think the us might be capable, any account in dollar denomination is theoretically "known" by the irs, I'm doubting Irish revenue (or any others) have the same international clout.

starkid

Smee_Again wrote: »

Can you post without mentioning welfare?

As long as Facebook and other MNCs have their HQs etc here they will continue to hire staff locally.

the problem is though they don't hire locally in many respects.

i work in eastpoint in a 300 person google project run by a contractor on google's clear behest. they have english language roles being done by Russians. From 25 Irish local people from all backgrounds, to getting better value and 4 Irish born agents.

Mike Murdock

Just speaking from experience.

The company I last worked for, an American MNC, would allow you to move overseas to work if they had an office in that country and a legal entity there too. They would then base your salary on a comparable role in that country. You could negotiate, but they were pretty stringent on the salary aspect. Unless you were in a Senior Management position where you have more room to negotiate.

A lot of larger companies would do similar, I would imagine.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Marginal income tax rates are lower in the UK. So an Italian would probably choose London over Dublin if they didn't want to move home to Italy. They'd pay less tax, the rents are roughly the same but the weather is better and better transportation.



Plenty also who would move home to Italy and would be happy to take the lower Italian salary. Money, especially gross salary, is not everything.



Nah, this is hugely negative for Dublin. Not in the short term, but human capital will leak out of the country or more likely just not come here at all in the first place.

They’d need a visa to do that and to jump through numerous hoops.

Brexit is an enormous disincentive to move to the U.K. from the EU.

Liam32123

starkid wrote: »

the problem is though they don't hire locally in many respects.

i work in eastpoint in a 300 person google project run by a contractor on google's clear behest. they have english language roles being done by Russians. From 25 Irish local people from all backgrounds, to getting better value and 4 Irish born agents.

Not even the half of Facebook's staff is Irish. We have a deep experience on how foreign can learn English and work as effectively as us.

History teaches that no country can have a prosperous life forever only based on foreign investments. Sooner or later reality changes....In these last twenty years none of our richness was spent to increase country's own production or infrastructures..Dublin, meanwhile, has gotten worse and worse; it is expensive and unstable in terms of safety, that is why many employees are requesting to go back to their home countries...

plodder

blackwhite wrote: »

Work is typically subject to income tax in the first instance where the work is performed.

Tax residency comes into it as a secondary level of levying income taxes.

If you are tax resident in Ireland - then all of your income is subject to Irish income tax, regardless of where you earned it. However, you will likely be entitled to a tax credit for any foreign taxes paid on the foreign income.

If you are not tax resident in Ireland - then only your Irish-earned income is subject to Irish income taxes. However, your country of tax residence will likely also tax the Irish-earned income, but with a tax credit (or local equivalent) granted for tax already paid in Ireland.


For the vast majority of people, it's never an issue as you will be tax resident wherever you are working - but that's not always the case.

How is "where the work is performed" decided? Is it not simply where the employee is?

zanador

I know so many people who work online for companies in other countries. Mainly the US and Germany. And have done so for years pre-Covid. Maybe their jobs will balance out whichever pesky foreigners take ours

joseywhales

joseywhales wrote: »

It does raise a point. It's unclear to me that the Irish revenue can track who spends 183 days in ireland. Like how? I can come in from belfast for example. So long as I don't register for any services, the bank transfers would be the only method but they could be registered to an social security number in another jurisdiction with lower income tax obligations. I'm not seeing how any government's plan to control taxation of remote workers. I think the us might be capable, any account in dollar denomination is theoretically "known" by the irs, I'm doubting Irish revenue (or any others) have the same international clout.

Well they don’t do that. However if you own a home in Ireland and/or pay utilities in Ireland that’s a good indication that you live in Ireland. The 183 days isn’t the only criteria, it’s one of the weaker ones.

Liam32123

Liam32123 wrote: »

Not even the half of Facebook's staff is Irish. We have a deep experience on how foreign can learn English and work as effectively as us.

They knew English before they came. And that’s why being English speaking matters.

History teaches that no country can have a prosperous life forever only based on foreign investments. Sooner or later reality changes....In these last twenty years none of our richness was spent to increase country's own production or infrastructures..Dublin, meanwhile, has gotten worse and worse; it is expensive and unstable in terms of safety, that is why many employees are requesting to go back to their home countries...

History teaches very little about this because it is very recent. Dublin has gotten worse but that’s a product of too much success too fast.

Liam32123

Liam32123 wrote: »

Wrong. In Europe you pay income tax 'where you live' (for 183 days per year), despite the jurisdiction of your employer can be different

Your employer has to be a legal entity in the country for you to do that (which is why Facebook is only allowing people to do this in a few countries).

utmbuilder

Europeans wouldn't be wired to dump their Irish property's like the Irish would and restart

They would rather be misrabile in a council estate after paying 360k for their private home

mcsean2163

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Your employer has to be a legal entity in the country for you to do that (which is why Facebook is only allowing people to do this in a few countries).

I mean I set up a subsidiary in the UK a few years ago for about £20 or something. Not exactly a huge barrier.

mcsean2163

mcsean2163 wrote: »

I mean I set up a subsidiary in the UK a few years ago for about £20 or something. Not exactly a huge barrier.

the legal costs and more importantly the tax costs would be higher for Facebook. This might become moot when the 15% comes in, if it does, but let’s see. Right now opening up a subsidiary would incur higher taxation and company insurance and other payments. There would be multiple tax filings etc.

Gradius

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is odd then that rents haven't fallen. In Silicon Valley where this is in fact happening, in a non anecdotal fashion, rents have fallen.

Don't get me wrong I do know one guy who works for the Government who is down the country and I get a lot of his department are there but they are coming back in September.

The Facebook ruling may reduce some pressure off the market but not much. The 15% tax is a suggestion for now, and if equally applied won't affect Ireland much, except in the case where companies return to the US.

There are a fair few people in my circles that are "coming back" according to HR departments, but the reality is that they have no intention whatsoever. Some have really set themselves in stone with mortgages and such.

So, could be more than a few shocks coming for a lot of companies. Maybe.

As for rents not falling, you can blame that on the government essentially paying the rent/pup to prop it all up. More factors involved, but that's a big 'un! Again, we'll see how that impacts when it all ends.

blackwhite

plodder wrote: »

How is "where the work is performed" decided? Is it not simply where the employee is?

Typically, but not always.

In terms of there being a mismatch between place of work and tax residency, it's not uncommon for staff to be assigned for a few months to work at an overseas office. Often in those instances the work performed overseas is subject to tax in that country, but the employee remains tax resident in their home country.
The home country will still normally retain the taxing right to assess the foreign-earned income for income taxes also, albeit with a credit for any foreign taxes paid (and possibly other offsets if there is a double taxation treaty)

Fred Cryton

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Is it hugely negative though? Dublin is overpriced and congested, is wealthy people leaving by choice who don't have deep roots in the area that negative at this moment in history? The Dublin economy has already overheated.

Yes it is hugely negative.


Who do you think pays for the €20bn welfare budget? it's a tiny sliver of higher rate taxpayers. A huge proportion of them are in three industries: Tech, finance and pharma. Almost everyone else is either a net receiver of tax or pays a tiny amount.



If they're not in the country, they will not be paying their taxes here. in addition, they will not be spending their disposable income here which generates taxable economic activity. So say bye bye to your lefty dreams of free everything paid for by someones else.

The DayDream

Lol a garden variety dole bashing thread disguised as a discussion of WFH and tech companies. Why do some people need to twist everything into a welfare hate soapbox.

Facebook are utterly unaffected by any of this drivel about welfare class and will not be going anywhere any time soon. Non runner OP.

The DayDream

Oh, I see now you are saying that Facebook going WFH is going to mean the dole will be slashed. I thought you were saying that it's the welfare class driving away facebook employees?

You really do have some funny fantasies. The dole was over 200 euro a week in 2006, Facebook was only getting just big then. The dole and Facebook are not really as reliant on each other as you (quite bizzarely) think they are.

Gradius

Gradius wrote: »

There are a fair few people in my circles that are "coming back" according to HR departments, but the reality is that they have no intention whatsoever. Some have really set themselves in stone with mortgages and such.

So, could be more than a few shocks coming for a lot of companies. Maybe.

As for rents not falling, you can blame that on the government essentially paying the rent/pup to prop it all up. More factors involved, but that's a big 'un! Again, we'll see how that impacts when it all ends.

People got a mortgage last year living abroad, during a pandemic, while working here? The shocks will be for the employee.

If rents fell then HAP would fall.

starkid

The DayDream wrote: »

Oh, I see now you are saying that Facebook going WFH is going to mean the dole will be slashed. I thought you were saying that it's the welfare class driving away facebook employees?

You really do have some funny fantasies. The dole was over 200 euro a week in 2006, Facebook was only getting just big then. The dole and Facebook are not really as reliant on each other as you (quite bizzarely) think they are.

jesus, how did you get there from what he said?

our welfare budget is tied into how many employers we have here. whats the issue with that?

and i can tell you now i know Google and its contracters have changed stance in terms of employing low skilled people. Used to be very open for Irish people who would be "working class". Now not so much as they ship english language jobs out to India or get in a 2 for 1 Russian or Scandi. Due to health reasons i had to stay put as i watched that story unfold. Its a bit galling considering a huge part of our tech hub is in traditional working class areas, and much of it is unskilled phone or moderation work. i'm one of only two Irish people who work an Irish account team covering one of the internets main apps. the bulk of it is done by Finnish and Russians.

VinLieger

As predicted and then dismissed as meaningful by the doom mongers Google are going to be reducing salaries of anyone who chooses to permanently wfh depending on their choosen location and the living costs associated with that area. Id be fairly certain Facebook et al will be following with very similar schemes. Will people be so willing to work from the beach if they are facing a potential 25%+ salary reduction? I think not.

https://nypost.com/2021/08/10/google-slashing-pay-for-work-from-home-employees-by-up-to-25/

Gary Scrod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739424#Comment_117739424

I don't have a problem with this.

"Our compensation packages have always been determined by location, and we always pay at the top of the local market based on where an employee works from."

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739448#Comment_117739448

Oh neither do I and anyone whose worked for any of these companies knows full well this has been in practice for years, ie the same job in Dublin has always paid more if done in New York, but it puts a nice dampener on the doom mongers cries of all the tech companies abandoning Dublin.

Jeremy Sproket

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058192498/facebook-allowing-removte-working-is-the-end-of-our-tech-boom

Will you still not have to be domiciled in Ireland on an Irish payroll and paying tax here?

Or can you work for an Irish company whilst being ordinarily resident in Finland, Latvia .... etc due to freedom of movement. I've always wondered why we don't have mandatory registration of abode here like we have in other European jurisdictions.

Fred Cryton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739424#Comment_117739424

That's not the point. The point is very many will happily take the pay cut and live in their home country on the lower salary. Because who would want to pay high rents and live in Dublin. The tech giants will be happy with this (reduced payroll), the workers happy with this (don't have to live in Dublin and can stay in home country). The loser in all this will be Dublin as it will end the tech boom here and the high spending that goes with it.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739618#Comment_117739618

Thats if they allow them to work in that specific home country due to the massive increase in tax complexities if they aren't already registered there, did you forget the key part of that argument again fred?

If I may ask what sector do you work in exactly?

mvl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739424#Comment_117739424

but this is old news (I am certain I read about the practice few good months ago, one of these multinationals again - doesn't really matter which one). don't have an issue with it either.

mvl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739618#Comment_117739618

you can assume home country or home county ... wouldn't look at the rents only, its the whole package: different needs for different stage in somebody's life is to blame (e.g nightlife is a must for some, while proximity to schools/after school activities for others). tbh, can think this could even be an excellent staff retention measure !

BattleCorp

While working from home has a lot of benefits, those benefits are mostly for the employee and not for the employer.

Lots of things are lost when employees work from home on a full-time basis. There's less camaraderie, less peer learning, less innovation, less promotional prospects, it's more difficult to learn etc. Now this isn't the case in 100% of businesses but it is an issue in some.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739618#Comment_117739618

none if these companies are going 100% wfh. And once again you don’t understand the tax implications for the company of having employees around the world, unless the employees are contractors.

mvl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739741#Comment_117739741

curious what you are implying now. these are multi-nationals, so they already have offices setup in countries where this measure would be allowed: employee gets a new "local" full time contract, with "local" salary/benefits ... what's the biggie ?

Whatever about working in a different country for a company based in Ireland which I don't know enough about what I am seeing a huge uptake in, is people outside Dublin getting jobs, i.e. Galway etc. with multinationals in Dublin and part of the move allowing them WFH with maybe one day a week in Dublin.

Fantastic for everyone, the employee gets to stay where they want, the employer gets the employee they want and the pressure on housing etc. is reduced for people in Dublin. I'm surprised how many have started doing this since the turn of the year. This really has the potential to power rural areas like the West and smaller towns and cities.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739823#Comment_117739823

No they don't have offices everywhere on earth, or everywhere in Europe. And they are not going to do that for every single employee who wants to work from anywhere. It's not just that they would have to set up a legal subsidiary in every country, but they would also have to make tax returns in every country where their employees work, and pay employee PRSI and other employer taxes, possibly get audited by every tax authority, have legal teams familiar with he law in every single country, and possibly transfer IP to those subsidiaries.

So in the Facebook case they have only allowed this where they already had companies set up for R&D, including the UK. Of course that might be enough to put a damper on the Dublin market but Facebook already had a lot of R&D outside Ireland. So I suppose people in those countries who wanted to work for FB but not in Dublin, went to those offices anyway.

Apple on the other hand doesn't have an R&D facility outside Ireland -- and I don't think Cork does much R&D these days anyway. Apple wants people back in the office.

Agis_IV

The levels of ignorance around corporate structures, including the taxation structure of said companies is astonishing. I half expected to see Ruth Coppinger calling for the nationalization of Facebook.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749611#Comment_117749611

Was she the Dublin "politician" who wanted Intel nationalised a few years back? Would have been funny if it wasn't so serious.