Facebook allowing removte working is the end of our tech boom.

SouthWesterly

I already know a company in Ireland who has said all staff can work remotely and has hired someone in a different country recently

Jim2007

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Why hire Pat in Dublin when Miroslav in Slovakia will do the job for €20k less per year?

Because there are not enough Pats or Miroslavs with the IQ and skills to work for FB, Google etc… it’s not a question of finding cheap ones, it a question of finding any at all!

Google opened a development center in Zürich a while back, one of the most expensive cities in the world, they did it not because it was cheap, but in the hope they might find a couple of Hans-Ruedis to add to the Pats and Mirosslavs.

If you were referring to the big outsourcing firms you might have a case.

Gradius

Anecdote alert!

Every single person I know in Dublin is seriously contemplating leaving, or have already left. Including native Dubliners. All willing to take serious risks employment-wise rather than the alternative property trap.

Leprechaun economics, as mentioned elsewhere, may have it's comeuppance on the horizon.

Gradius

Gradius wrote: »

Anecdote alert!

Every single person I know in Dublin is seriously contemplating leaving, or have already left. Including native Dubliners. All willing to take serious risks employment-wise rather than the alternative property trap.

Leprechaun economics, as mentioned elsewhere, may have it's comeuppance on the horizon.

Cool but then you also have people like myself who are going to choose to work from elsewhere in Ireland.... The housing issue is very much so a thing but plenty are going to relocate to other locations in country and buy.

Fred Cryton

Mr.S wrote: »

Back to the point of the OP - if FB Ireland contracted staff choose to work from X country, you can be 100% sure if they stay on a EUHQ contract but work (for example) from Spain, their salary and compensation package will be lower. So while some people will gladly take the pay-cut, others won't. It will effectively level out.

Where i think you are wrong is that given the option, pretty much 100% of non-Irish will work for lower pay in their home country rather than higher pay in Dublin. Assuming career progression is not affected too much.



It is a massive culture shock for continental Europeans to live in dublin. Most think it is run-down and massively over-expensive. They are also not blind, they see a certain class of people on welfare living in the city centre at taxpayer expense engaging in anti-social behaviour, and they do not like it one bit.

Fred Cryton

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Where i think you are wrong is that given the option, pretty much 100% of non-Irish will work for lower pay in their home country rather than higher pay in Dublin. Assuming career progression is not affected too much.



It is a massive culture shock for continental Europeans to live in dublin. Most think it is run-down and massively over-expensive. They are also not blind, they see a certain class of people on welfare living in the city centre at taxpayer expense engaging in anti-social behaviour, and they do not like it one bit.

Wouldn't say a hundred percent is correct at all. Plenty of developers in Ireland who might not be Irish but have very much so established lives here with families and children. So saying they all want to leave is not accurate.

Hamachi

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Where i think you are wrong is that given the option, pretty much 100% of non-Irish will work for lower pay in their home country rather than higher pay in Dublin. Assuming career progression is not affected too much.



It is a massive culture shock for continental Europeans to live in dublin. Most think it is run-down and massively over-expensive. They are also not blind, they see a certain class of people on welfare living in the city centre at taxpayer expense engaging in anti-social behaviour, and they do not like it one bit.

Nothing much to add to this thread except there seems to be an assumption that the entire employee base of MNCs is non-Irish.

I work for one of the global tech companies in an engineering role. The total headcount across all functions in Ireland is ~3K. In my company, I guess around 65% of the staff are Irish. I can state for a fact that most of them aren’t going anywhere. A few have relocated outside Dublin, but none that I know of, have left the jurisdiction.

Amongst the non-Irish, quite a few of the Europeans are married to or are in relationships with Irish people. This is particularly true of the Germans, Dutch, and Scandinavians, but also to a lesser extent of Italians, Spanish, and Eastern Europeans. Most of those people are pretty well embedded here.

There’s also quite a few Asians, Indians and Chinese primarily, who tend to be more insular, but I’d be surprised if opt to leave Ireland en-masse.

I think a significant number of the 20-something continental Europeans who have few roots here and are mobile will relocate. However, in the case of my particular company they are no more than 15%-20% of all employees.

Liam32123

Party is over guys. Corporation Tax will be equal for big tech everywhere in Europe soon. Facebook's action was just the first of a long series.

And in the end, this is right. You cannot base forever your economy on the fortune of other countries' companies

riclad

If every corporation has to pay 15 per cent tax well then there's not much point in going to Ireland apart from Google , tech company's needs a euro office in order to process EU data under gdpr regulations
I think there's a problem in that we can hardly provide good quality rental units for any new company's who might open an office here

Liam32123

No, they are just going to settle wherever else in Europe, given that taxation will be the same in any Member State. Don't you think they will definitely prefer countries like Greece, Spain and Italy for a better living?

hello2020

Liam32123 wrote: »

Party is over guys. Corporation Tax will be equal for big tech everywhere in Europe soon. Facebook's action was just the first of a long series.

And in the end, this is right. You cannot base forever your economy on the fortune of other countries' companies

How many years it will take for this new rule to come into play?

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Where do you get the idea that Irish income tax is higher than most continental income taxes?!

Yes, rents in Dublin in particular are expensive, but rents are also expensive in plenty of other cities with high demand.

I paid income tax in France, Belgium and Spain and absolutely is not cheaper and social contributions are much higher and there are often local taxes and various property charges to factor into it too.

You’d be working for Facebook Italia, as a local employee on local rates. That’s all it amounts to really.

People also often move here to spend several years in an English language environment. That’s actually a big draw and the cities here are very, very buzzing in normal times and also quite multicultural, friendly and have a lot more going for them than we tend to give ourselves credit for.

Liam32123

hello2020 wrote: »

How many years it will take for this new rule to come into play?

This year

Liam32123

Mr.S wrote: »

Ah now, so your suggesting that they pull all the investment they’ve poured into Ireland building up HQ’s to move to the Med for the weather ? Come on.

That is why I say it will happen 'slowly'. I revert your question: are you suggesting that they will remain forever in Ireland only because they invested in real estate here for HQ? Investments will remain for them (they might easily sell or rent)

Liam32123

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

If you earn the income in Ireland, you must pay the tax in Ireland. The eu operates a 'tax at source' system

Wrong. In Europe you pay income tax 'where you live' (for 183 days per year), despite the jurisdiction of your employer can be different

Sunny Disposition

It seems hard to believe when the economy turns, all my life that has been the way, people can’t believe big shifts will happen, even when they’ve seen a few.
Remote working is going to mean far fewer workers leaving their home countries, even their home towns. Of course there will always be people who want to see new things, but fewer in an industry like IT will need to. And the trend will likely increase as States get their regulations more in order.
It’s probably a good thing in Dublin, although some people would see this point as populism or nativism. The city has become too expensive for most people from Dublin, with deep ties to the area.

timmyntc

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Where do you get the idea that Irish income tax is higher than most continental income taxes?!

Yes, rents in Dublin in particular are expensive, but rents are also expensive in plenty of other cities with high demand.

I paid income tax in France, Belgium and Spain and absolutely is not cheaper and social contributions are much higher and there are often local taxes and various property charges to factor into it too.

You’d be working for Facebook Italia, as a local employee on local rates. That’s all it amounts to really.

People also often move here to spend several years in an English language environment. That’s actually a big draw and the cities here are very, very buzzing in normal times and also quite multicultural, friendly and have a lot more going for them than we tend to give ourselves credit for.

The "draw" of Ireland to a foreigner is usually the availability of jobs - quite a lot of MNC's have European R&D in Ireland, not in their other sites in Spain, Italy etc.

So if you want to work in those jobs, you cant work in the local site - you have to move to Ireland.
What this change now means, is that Irish R&D can be done from any site in Europe/7 named countries. Obviously you will get the local salary, but the need to be based in Dublin is no longer a thing. Which is enough for plenty of people to want to emigrate I'd expect.

Not the end of days, but definitely more than a "non-event".

Fred Cryton

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Where do you get the idea that Irish income tax is higher than most continental income taxes?!

Yes, rents in Dublin in particular are expensive, but rents are also expensive in plenty of other cities with high demand.

I paid income tax in France, Belgium and Spain and absolutely is not cheaper and social contributions are much higher and there are often local taxes and various property charges to factor into it too.

You’d be working for Facebook Italia, as a local employee on local rates. That’s all it amounts to really.

People also often move here to spend several years in an English language environment. That’s actually a big draw and the cities here are very, very buzzing in normal times and also quite multicultural, friendly and have a lot more going for them than we tend to give ourselves credit for.

Marginal income tax rates are lower in the UK. So an Italian would probably choose London over Dublin if they didn't want to move home to Italy. They'd pay less tax, the rents are roughly the same but the weather is better and better transportation.



Plenty also who would move home to Italy and would be happy to take the lower Italian salary. Money, especially gross salary, is not everything.



Nah, this is hugely negative for Dublin. Not in the short term, but human capital will leak out of the country or more likely just not come here at all in the first place.

Liam32123

Liam32123 wrote: »

No, they are just going to settle wherever else in Europe, given that taxation will be the same in any Member State. Don't you think they will definitely prefer countries like Greece, Spain and Italy for a better living?

No? There are other problems in these countries, often far worse than in Ireland. Also there's a new language to learn.

Gradius

Gradius wrote: »

Anecdote alert!

Every single person I know in Dublin is seriously contemplating leaving, or have already left. Including native Dubliners. All willing to take serious risks employment-wise rather than the alternative property trap.

Leprechaun economics, as mentioned elsewhere, may have it's comeuppance on the horizon.

It is odd then that rents haven't fallen. In Silicon Valley where this is in fact happening, in a non anecdotal fashion, rents have fallen.

Don't get me wrong I do know one guy who works for the Government who is down the country and I get a lot of his department are there but they are coming back in September.

The Facebook ruling may reduce some pressure off the market but not much. The 15% tax is a suggestion for now, and if equally applied won't affect Ireland much, except in the case where companies return to the US.

Sunny Disposition

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Marginal income tax rates are lower in the UK. So an Italian would probably choose London over Dublin if they didn't want to move home to Italy. They'd pay less tax, the rents are roughly the same but the weather is better and better transportation.



Plenty also who would move home to Italy and would be happy to take the lower Italian salary. Money, especially gross salary, is not everything.



Nah, this is hugely negative for Dublin. Not in the short term, but human capital will leak out of the country or more likely just not come here at all in the first place.

Is it hugely negative though? Dublin is overpriced and congested, is wealthy people leaving by choice who don't have deep roots in the area that negative at this moment in history? The Dublin economy has already overheated.

plodder

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

If you earn the income in Ireland, you must pay the tax in Ireland. The eu operates a 'tax at source' system

I thought it was based on your country of residence, which is where you spend more than six months of the year. That was the rule at one point (in Irish tax law), unless it has changed?

Dyr

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Is it hugely negative though? Dublin is overpriced and congested, is wealthy people leaving by choice who don't have deep roots in the area that negative at this moment in history? The Dublin economy has already overheated.

If our governments have shown one thing at all, its their commitment to propping up the property market no matter what

A way will be found. Moar students, Moar Deliveroo cyclists, Moar anything.

blackwhite

plodder wrote: »

I thought it was based on your country of residence, which is where you spend more than six months of the year. That was the rule at one point (in Irish tax law), unless it has changed?

Work is typically subject to income tax in the first instance where the work is performed.

Tax residency comes into it as a secondary level of levying income taxes.

If you are tax resident in Ireland - then all of your income is subject to Irish income tax, regardless of where you earned it. However, you will likely be entitled to a tax credit for any foreign taxes paid on the foreign income.

If you are not tax resident in Ireland - then only your Irish-earned income is subject to Irish income taxes. However, your country of tax residence will likely also tax the Irish-earned income, but with a tax credit (or local equivalent) granted for tax already paid in Ireland.


For the vast majority of people, it's never an issue as you will be tax resident wherever you are working - but that's not always the case.

flipflophead22

I am looking to relocate to spain early next year and wondered if i secure a remote role with a company do i just pay the tax in spain or?...

joseywhales

It does raise a point. It's unclear to me that the Irish revenue can track who spends 183 days in ireland. Like how? I can come in from belfast for example. So long as I don't register for any services, the bank transfers would be the only method but they could be registered to an social security number in another jurisdiction with lower income tax obligations. I'm not seeing how any government's plan to control taxation of remote workers. I think the us might be capable, any account in dollar denomination is theoretically "known" by the irs, I'm doubting Irish revenue (or any others) have the same international clout.

starkid

Smee_Again wrote: »

Can you post without mentioning welfare?

As long as Facebook and other MNCs have their HQs etc here they will continue to hire staff locally.

the problem is though they don't hire locally in many respects.

i work in eastpoint in a 300 person google project run by a contractor on google's clear behest. they have english language roles being done by Russians. From 25 Irish local people from all backgrounds, to getting better value and 4 Irish born agents.

Mike Murdock

Just speaking from experience.

The company I last worked for, an American MNC, would allow you to move overseas to work if they had an office in that country and a legal entity there too. They would then base your salary on a comparable role in that country. You could negotiate, but they were pretty stringent on the salary aspect. Unless you were in a Senior Management position where you have more room to negotiate.

A lot of larger companies would do similar, I would imagine.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Marginal income tax rates are lower in the UK. So an Italian would probably choose London over Dublin if they didn't want to move home to Italy. They'd pay less tax, the rents are roughly the same but the weather is better and better transportation.



Plenty also who would move home to Italy and would be happy to take the lower Italian salary. Money, especially gross salary, is not everything.



Nah, this is hugely negative for Dublin. Not in the short term, but human capital will leak out of the country or more likely just not come here at all in the first place.

They’d need a visa to do that and to jump through numerous hoops.

Brexit is an enormous disincentive to move to the U.K. from the EU.

Liam32123

starkid wrote: »

the problem is though they don't hire locally in many respects.

i work in eastpoint in a 300 person google project run by a contractor on google's clear behest. they have english language roles being done by Russians. From 25 Irish local people from all backgrounds, to getting better value and 4 Irish born agents.

Not even the half of Facebook's staff is Irish. We have a deep experience on how foreign can learn English and work as effectively as us.

History teaches that no country can have a prosperous life forever only based on foreign investments. Sooner or later reality changes....In these last twenty years none of our richness was spent to increase country's own production or infrastructures..Dublin, meanwhile, has gotten worse and worse; it is expensive and unstable in terms of safety, that is why many employees are requesting to go back to their home countries...