Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI Read OP For Mod Warnings

Graham · 08-06-2021 01:04PM

NIAC Fanboy wrote: »

We have 77 hospital after a bank holiday.

Could be about 60 by the weekend.

But its not the first does that matters.

You should definitely tell the manufacturers of the vaccines that they've got it all wrong and you have a much better understanding of the protection levels than their testing.

NIAC Fanboy · 08-06-2021 01:10PM

Graham wrote: »

You should definitely tell the manufacturers of the vaccines that they've got it all wrong and you have a much better understanding of the protection levels than their testing.

What have they got wrong?

Lets say 60 in hospital after the weekend effect, society opening in ever increasing numbers, just 10.5% of the population fully vaccinated.

But its not the first dose that matters. OK.

Amazing especially considering variants and explosive multiplier effects.

Baggly · 08-06-2021 01:20PM

NIAC Fanboy wrote: »

We have 77 hospital after a bank holiday.

Could be about 60 by the weekend.

But its not the first dose that matters.

Mod

Gave you fair warning. Hyperbolic nonsense has no place in civil discussion. Dont post in this thread again.

08-06-2021 01:34PM

Graham wrote: »

You replied to my post so lets not pretend those are my words.

Its the thread method - assume the most extreme version of an opposing argument is the view of all who in anyway agree with that individual on any matter on occasion.

Micky 32 · 08-06-2021 01:41PM

Chivito550 wrote: »

So, nobody has protection after one dose? .

Definately some protection after the first dose. Stats were just released from the UK regarding the Delta variant and hospitalisations.

Out of all the hospitalisations from the Delta variant circa 65% were unvaccinated vs 20% admitted that had their one shot ( drop of circa 45%). A massive 97% avoided hospital that had their 2 shots. This is for the indian variant.

It’s all good and we have lots to look forward to getting out of this.

Graham · 08-06-2021 01:47PM

Micky 32 wrote: »

It’s all good and we have lots to look forward to getting out of this.

+1

I think we're in a fairly strong position right now, certainly when we look at the UK and the hints of delays.

gozunda · 08-06-2021 01:52PM

NIAC Fanboy wrote: »

We have 77 hospital after a bank holiday.

Could be about 60 by the weekend.

But its not the first dose that matters.

So applying your own logic there

Last year when hospital numbers were reduced to very low figures - that was the vaccine travelling back in time and space?

Forget a medal for breakthroughs in the field of virology - that deserves a nobel peace prize in physics all by itself.

Baggly · 08-06-2021 02:07PM

He can't respond. Best to move on.

08-06-2021 03:42PM

NIAC Fanboy wrote: »

And what would you call the people on here defending the restrictions to the hilt and trying to justify all things covid?

Surprisingly committed to this thread and fortunate to be able to make it a priority.

ELM327 · 08-06-2021 03:55PM

Chivito550 wrote: »

We can go round and round in circles if you wish. Bottom line is, with the vulnerable being at least partially vaccinated, with ICU and hospital numbers being tiny, and with myself and my loved ones vaccinated, I will not be going for covid tests, and I will avoid giving info for contact tracing unless I have no choice but to provide the information.

We have to break out of this way of living. Case numbers are becoming incredibly meaningless.

I am starting to think this is correct. Covid will likely be with us long term, and probably be just added to the flu shot on the list of vaccines to get.

We need to open up, let those who need vaccinating get it done etc but just go back to normal life.

Graham · 08-06-2021 04:01PM

ELM327 wrote: »

I am starting to think this is correct. Covid will likely be with us long term, and probably be just added to the flu shot on the list of vaccines to get.

+1

ELM327 wrote: »

We need to open up, let those who need vaccinating get it done etc but just go back to normal life.

Isn't that what's happening (as evidenced by 300k vaccinations/week and the easing of restrictions)?

charlie14 · 08-06-2021 04:34PM

Chivito550 wrote: »

Let me get this straight. A vaccinated person with no symptoms, with the vulnerable vaccinated (and who have free will to stay at home) is a danger to society?

The testing made sense back when we knew little about this virus and when we had no vaccines. I will not be going for any tests now, irregardless of whether some lad who was taking a leak in the same jacks as me 5 minutes earlier tested positive.

If you want to carry on living like this, fire ahead.

With you being fully vaccinated then you were classified as among the vulnerable.
It must be really gratifying for all those not yet vaccinated to know the sacrifices they made are so much appreciated by you.
Would it actually kill you to do the quite simple things now asked of you.

Klonker · 08-06-2021 04:39PM

Can't question anything here. Everything is opening at just the exact right pace, not too fast not too slow. We don't know what NPHET have decided on indoor dining reopening but when they decide that it'll be the exact right time too. Nevermind the fact the majority of Europe have a lot more opened than us at similar vaccine rates and their hospital/death rates are still decreasing yet they are all wrong and Ireland is right of course.

Graham · 08-06-2021 04:42PM

Klonker wrote: »

Can't question anything here. Everything is opening at just the exact right pace, not too fast not too slow.

Who said that?

Chivito550 · 08-06-2021 04:51PM

charlie14 wrote: »

With you being fully vaccinated then you were classified as among the vulnerable.
It must be really gratifying for all those not yet vaccinated to know the sacrifices they made are so much appreciated by you.
Would it actually kill you to do the quite simple things now asked of you.

Not all people who got the vaccine are old, unhealthy or have an underlying condition. Many got it through work, before it got changed to a pure age only system.

You'll find it very hard to, after 15 months, after how many million vaccines injected into people's arms, convince people with no symptoms that they need to get tested, with the possible consequence of being told to isolate for 14 days in the height of summer. Good luck with that.

Klonker · 08-06-2021 04:52PM

Graham wrote: »

Who said that?

Calling posters who agree with restrictions 'informed'. What impressing does that give of what that poster thinks of posters that disagree with restrictions? Would you not call that a dissmisive post? Or how about a one word answer to a post with 'nope'. Again is that not a dissmisive post? It doesn't even argue ones point as to why they didn't agree with the post they were responding to.

Graham · 08-06-2021 05:01PM

Klonker wrote: »

Calling posters who agree with restrictions 'informed'. What impressing does that give of what that poster thinks of posters that disagree with restrictions? Would you not call that a dissmisive post? Or how about a one word answer to a post with 'nope'. Again is that not a dissmisive post? It doesn't even argue ones point as to why they didn't agree with the post they were responding to.

So nobody actually said it then.

Gotcha

The fact is we will have no idea about the right speed for reopening/relaxing restrictions other than in hindsight. We can already see other countries with higher levels of vaccination and speedier reopening making cautionary noises about slowing things down.

Personally I think we've got a fairly good balance but only time will tell.

CalamariFritti · 08-06-2021 05:06PM

I blame the government/media. They have deliberately polarised the (non-existing) debate on covid and all its little side shows.
Because they chose the unprecedented nuclear option with its massive fallout, many of it yet to become clear, we couldnt possibly have a debate. The government line had to be the one and only line with no questioning it. And it will have to remain the only line. There was no alternative. Beasue god forbid someone may get blamed for decisions of such magnitude.

Combined with a media who seem to think they're not just reporters but sort of educators of the people on good causes we let them create an environment where you're either with us or you're against us. And against us must be discredited full force and at all costs with the all too familiar bull. Right-wingers, grifters, anti-maskers, anti-vaxxers, conspiracy theorists. All the same thing right? And if you risk to fall into any of those categories you're all of it and sure we know what these people are like. Thankfully they're a tiny minority. Ha.

The intention was to complete suppress any debate and it was quite successful.

This only works because many people just cant see through that and happily take 'the (seemingly) good side' and mistake that for 'the right side' or even the idea there is a 'right side'. The unwilling and unknowing and unwavering crusaders for the 'good cause'.

Manipulation textbook stuff.

Klonker · 08-06-2021 05:21PM

Graham wrote: »

So nobody actually said it then.

Gotcha

The fact is we will have no idea about the right speed for reopening/relaxing restrictions other than in hindsight. We can already see other countries with higher levels of vaccination and speedier reopening making cautionary noises about slowing things down.

Personally I think we've got a fairly good balance but only time will tell.

Nobody said what? That you can't disagree? No of course not, I never said anyone said that did I? Gotcha.

I think that's one country (let's just call the UK a country to make things easier) that are taking about slowing down restrictions but actually haven't done it yet. A country thats looking to slow down its last step back to normality, we are a numerous steps behind them in getting back to normality. Their step they are slowing down is nightclubs, full offices, fully dropping social distancing so it's hardly a like for like comparison.

Now coincidently, we do have a number of EU countries who happen to have similar rates of vaccinations to us. They have easened restrictions well beyond what we have here and no major I'll effects of doing so so no I don't think we have a good balance here, I think we are being way way overly cautious for little benifit. So I guess I'm ill informed if I have that opinion is it?

TomTomTim · 08-06-2021 05:30PM

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I blame the government/media. They have deliberately polarised the (non-existing) debate on covid and all its little side shows.
Because they chose the unprecedented nuclear option with its massive fallout, many of it yet to become clear, we couldnt possibly have a debate. The government line had to be the one and only line with no questioning it. And it will have to remain the only line. There was no alternative. Beasue god forbid someone may get blamed for decisions of such magnitude.

Combined with a media who seem to think they're not just reporters but sort of educators of the people on good causes we let them create an environment where you're either with us or you're against us. And against us must be discredited full force and at all costs with the all too familiar bull. Right-wingers, grifters, anti-maskers, anti-vaxxers, conspiracy theorists. All the same thing right? And if you risk to fall into any of those categories you're all of it and sure we know what these people are like. Thankfully they're a tiny minority. Ha.

The intention was to complete suppress any debate and it was quite successful.

This only works because many people just cant see through that and happily take 'the (seemingly) good side' and mistake that for 'the right side' or even the idea there is a 'right side'. The unwilling and unknowing and unwavering crusaders for the 'good cause'.

Manipulation textbook stuff.

This is the true meat of the issue. People caring far more about acceptance than what's actually best for us all.

Graham · 08-06-2021 05:30PM

Klonker wrote: »

I think that's one country (let's just call the UK a country to make things easier) that are taking about slowing down restrictions but actually haven't done it yet. A country thats looking to slow down its last step back to normality, we are a numerous steps behind them in getting back to normality. Their step they are slowing down is nightclubs, full offices, fully dropping social distancing so it's hardly a like for like comparison.

It's unsurprising we're steps behind the UK, our vaccination program is behind the UK.

That doesn't change the fact that they're currently unsure about the speed of reopening.

Klonker wrote: »

we do have a number of EU countries who happen to have similar rates of vaccinations to us. They have easened restrictions well beyond what we have here and no major I'll effects of doing so

Pretty much all countries are easing differing restrictions at differing rates. Makes sense when you consider that each country is different in terms of population age, population densities, social interactions etc. etc. etc. etc.

Like I said, it's only in hindsight each country will be able to judge the success or otherwise of their approach.

Foxtrol · 08-06-2021 05:53PM

gozunda wrote: »

Agreed Florida and Texas are not the poster childs some seem to think - hence the comment.

Dont believe the discussion was about "outdoor dining"? But that's an interesting statement saying "outdoor dining" in the US and Ireland "getting it wrong"? With regard to that conclusion - such simple comparisons are not possible - but the wider issue has always been about keeping the infection rate down - which Ireland has done very successfully and in comparison - many US stats have not.

It has been about keeping infections down but they have ignored science of low risk situations that could have been opened long ago that would have helped improve mental health of many people along with keeping businesses alive.

Simple comparisons can be made between them unless you believe Irish air is scientifically different than the air in the US, or all over the world, when it comes to outdoor dining or that there has been some worldwide conspiracy to minimize outbreaks due to outdoor dining.

I understand the political reason why they didn't want to start up outdoor dining in Ireland, it however had little scientific basis for the last few months.

Outside of that topic - I know of no one who wishes for the "country to stay shut" or similar.

Changes in guidance on masks, issues regarding self administered antigen tests are very distinct and seperate issues btw. But if you wish to discuss that - then ok.

I really don't see them as distinct at all. They are a common trend of ignoring science when it suits them, hiding under a blanket claim of 'caution', we can throw in resistance in shortening the time for AZ and mixing vaccines into that list as well.

gozunda · 08-06-2021 05:54PM

TomTomTim wrote: »

This is the true meat of the issue. People caring far more about acceptance than what's actually best for us all.

Well no.

And who exactly is 'caring about "acceptance" over "what's actually best for us all"?

But more importantly who here gets to define whats "what's actually best for us all"?

Or are you suggesting that only those that oppose the status quo somehow know whats best?

Seems to be a staggeringly large amount of grandstanding and ' I'm right because your wrong' or wtte in that tbh.

Graham · 08-06-2021 05:56PM

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I blame the government/media. They have deliberately polarised the (non-existing) debate on covid and all its little side shows.
Because they chose the unprecedented nuclear option with its massive fallout, many of it yet to become clear, we couldnt possibly have a debate. The government line had to be the one and only line with no questioning it. And it will have to remain the only line. There was no alternative. Beasue god forbid someone may get blamed for decisions of such magnitude.

Combined with a media who seem to think they're not just reporters but sort of educators of the people on good causes we let them create an environment where you're either with us or you're against us. And against us must be discredited full force and at all costs with the all too familiar bull. Right-wingers, grifters, anti-maskers, anti-vaxxers, conspiracy theorists. All the same thing right? And if you risk to fall into any of those categories you're all of it and sure we know what these people are like. Thankfully they're a tiny minority. Ha.

The intention was to complete suppress any debate and it was quite successful.

This only works because many people just cant see through that and happily take 'the (seemingly) good side' and mistake that for 'the right side' or even the idea there is a 'right side'. The unwilling and unknowing and unwavering crusaders for the 'good cause'.

Manipulation textbook stuff.

Let me see if I have this right. Anyone that disagrees with you and broadly agrees with the current approach is only doing so because they've been manipulated by the media.

Definitely not because they've actually thought this out and formed a considered opinion that happens to disagree with yours.

Klonker · 08-06-2021 06:04PM

Graham wrote: »

Pretty much all countries are easing differing restrictions at differing rates. Makes sense when you consider that each country is different in terms of population age, population densities, social interactions etc. etc. etc. etc.

Like I said, it's only in hindsight each country will be able to judge the success or otherwise of their approach.

Yes Europeans are easing at at differing rates with Ireland at the rear of almost all of them. And youre also right about countries with different population ages, density etc. We know by now which one of these is the most important in terms of covid and it is by far population ages, of which Ireland has one of the youngest.

So look, you can say Ireland is opening at the right speed if thats what you think, but at the same time you'd also have to think the majority of European countries are opening too fast, including conservative, sensible Germany. I personally think we are moving way too slowly and I'd be happier to be more in line with the likes of Germany.

Rayne Wooney · 08-06-2021 06:12PM

When the dust is settled and we are counting the billions owed in debt there will be plenty of time for an enquiry into why we were the one of the last European countries to open up with the longest lockdowns.

Leo is already “pressuring NPHET” to bring back office workers a month earlier than was planned.

They will start to realise they’ve got this wrong, they can’t be seen to admit that by bringing the whole schedule forward. NPHET are working on worst case scenarios, Tony’s reaction to the crowds in town despite it having no impact on hospitalisations tells you everything you need to know about the man, “I know best and nothing will change that” attitude.

The virus kills 1 in 100,000 of people under 45, car accidents must have killed more in this group in the last 12 months. My gripe is that they’ve said this is what is happening and not given any reasoning behind it, the data points to an ultra conservative approach.

Foxtrol · 08-06-2021 06:15PM

Graham wrote: »

So nobody actually said it then.

Gotcha

The fact is we will have no idea about the right speed for reopening/relaxing restrictions other than in hindsight. We can already see other countries with higher levels of vaccination and speedier reopening making cautionary noises about slowing things down.

Personally I think we've got a fairly good balance but only time will tell.

I don't think this is true at all.

Ireland is not the only data point on reopening and given the fact that multiple areas are opening at the same time, even with hindsight it will be impossible to pinpoint what was the cause if there was a spike.

Using the outdoor dining example again, countries around the world have had theirs open for months, many well before vaccination roll out began, and have not seen noticeable increases in linked cases. It isn't something new Ireland is trialing for the first time in history, there is a truck load of science and international examples that they have just decided to ignore until now. Same with sport events and so many other things.

Graham · 08-06-2021 06:22PM

Klonker wrote: »

So look, you can say Ireland is opening at the right speed if thats what you think, but at the same time you'd also have to think the majority of European countries are opening too fast, including conservative, sensible Germany. I personally think we are moving way too slowly and I'd be happier to be more in line with the likes of Germany.

As of a week ago:

Hamburg: recent COVID test or proof of vaccination for indoor dining. Hotels 60% capacity mandatory covid testing.

Berlin: mandatory testing for indoor dining. Hotels not reopening until June 11th

Saxony-Anhalt: mandatory testing for indoor dining.

Saarland: mandatory testing for outdoor dining to be lifted on June 11th.

gozunda · 08-06-2021 06:33PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

It has been about keeping infections down but they have ignored science of low risk situations that could have been opened long ago that would have helped improve mental health of many people along with keeping businesses alive.

Over the last six months we have moved from a period with very high case rates in January and February.

The whole point was to get that infection rate down and keep it down whilst vaccinations were rolled out. Even with that restrictions have already significantly rolled back. And none of that was ignoring "the science". That restrictions being rolledback are considered too slow for some is moot.

It remains that the two US states which you referred to and who threw restrictions out the Window have some of the highest case, death and hospitalisations rates in the US and that despite having higher rates of vaccination than here. 'The Science" you refer to doesn't seem to have helped those two states particularly in this instance.

Foxtrol wrote: »

Simple comparisons can be made between them unless you believe Irish air is scientifically different than the air in the US, or all over the world, when it comes to outdoor dining or that there has been some worldwide conspiracy to minimize outbreaks due to outdoor dining.

Its quite simple. Demographics are different. Climate is different. Health resources are different etc etc. Governance is different. But what we can see that with a simple comparison of other US states - Neither Florida nor Texas comes out of a comparison smelling of roses.

Foxtrol wrote: »

I understand the political reason why they didn't want to start up outdoor dining in Ireland, it however had little scientific basis for the last few months.

I see no "political" reason tbh. Restrictions relate to the slowing / keeping the rate of infection down. We know that socialising is an issue with regard to infection management. Thankfully with increasing vaccination rates that link is now now less of an issue. Outdoor dining has returned. And indoor dining in the near future.

Foxtrol wrote: »

I really don't see them as distinct at all. They are a common trend of ignoring science when it suits them, hiding under a blanket claim of 'caution', we can throw in resistance in shortening the time for AZ and mixing vaccines into that list as well.

The science wasn't ignored as far as I can see. Its true that Scientific knowledge has advanced and evolved since the beginning of the pandemic. And we know all countries face similar dilemmas where they must chose levels of restrictions to help keep down the rate of infection and alter them accordingly or they can simply not bother and like Florida and Texas pay the price of higher case, death and hospitalisation rates.

SNNUS · 08-06-2021 07:10PM

Big Tony will have a heart attack when he sees the crowd at Hungary Ireland game, some people may question how big of an outlier we are to the rest of Europe.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI Read OP For Mod Warnings