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All Homes to be re-valued for Property Tax in November 2021

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12467…17

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    #92
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,116 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    I've personally no issue paying taxes and certainly understand the need for same, I just have a strongly held view on property tax on a home. I've paid my LPT from the outset and can painfully accept the amount I pay which is tge lowest band. I really don't believe increasing it is fair regardless of what band it is, there are ample other potential taxation measures that could be looked at. At 53, I may seem old fashioned but I've worked hard for my humble cottage and never thought when purchasing it 21 years ago it would be subject to taxation, particularly given all the other taxes homeowners and indeed tenant's pay.

    21 years ago we were only a few years since the end of various house-based council service changes (in most but not all council areas) and there was a party in government (the PDs) that had campaigned for the prior election on reinstating them nationally - it's something that was worth considering as a risk.

    Even if it did take 11 years after that before the Household Charge came in in the end; it wasn't really off the cards for many years.


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    #93
    Ger Roe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Its being realistic

    Taxes are needed to fund the country and pay for covid expenses, they just are.

    This is one of the more fairer taxes but it is laughably low, it really should be at least double of what it currently is.

    While they are at it, they should look at how they can bring in water charges so we are not diverting existing funds to pay for Irish Water. That alone would free up several billion in existing taxes which could be used to fund any number of services

    Fair? Not by a long shot..... It's an increased notional valuation that you have no control over, that has to be paid from the less rising pot of your personal (after tax already paid) income.

    Pensioners are paying for the privilege of still living in a house they just about scraped by to pay for over many years, and they are now being hit with increasing taxes in their twilight years because a failed government housing policy that results in increased demand is apparently causing someone else's valuation of their property to rise????

    It's not double what it currently is, because there would be riots on the streets and loss of election seats. That's why it's a mess, it was a lip service introduction intended to introduced softly and ramped up later, but no government has had the nerve to do so, because even they know it isn't fair.


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    #94
    Murph85
    Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    howiya wrote: »
    Property tax is regressive because there is no consideration of an individuals ability to pay.

    Very simplistic example. Eoin O'Broin and his neighbour own houses with equal value or within the same band. Eoin earns a TDs salary while the neighbour earns 30-40k a year yet they will pay the same amount of LPT.

    On the other hand income tax is progressive because Eoin will pay more than the neighbour.

    Lol! You got this from the ABC school of economics? What's progressive enough income tax for you ? Fifty percent over a pittance, because labour is so heavily taxed here, it benefits a huge amount at the expense of an easy to ignore political minority ?


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    #95
    jinish
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭jinish


    I mortgaged a house last year. The house belongs to the bank. I will have to pay the mortgage for the next 33 years. It is not mine.
    Now I need to fork an extra 780 per year.


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    #96
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    jinish wrote: »
    I mortgaged a house last year. The house belongs to the bank. I will have to pay the mortgage for the next 33 years. It is not mine.
    Now I need to fork an extra 780 per year.

    Is your name on that title deeds? If so the house belongs to you - the banks just have a charge on it - but they don’t own it. For instance if the bank owned it they could sell it but they don’t - you on the other hand could sell it and pay the bank back.


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    #97
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,116 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    jinish wrote: »
    I mortgaged a house last year. The house belongs to the bank. I will have to pay the mortgage for the next 33 years. It is not mine.
    Now I need to fork an extra 780 per year.

    None of the current rate bands are 780 apart. The band gaps are 90 euro except for the first one so 780 isn't even possible.

    If the house you bought has gone up hugely in value since 2012 you might be looking at maybe 4 90 euro bands at most. And it would seem that the actual band rates are going to go down anyway.


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    #98
    jinish
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭jinish


    L1011 wrote: »
    None of the current rate bands are 780 apart. The band gaps are 90 euro except for the first one so 780 isn't even possible.

    If the house you bought has gone up hugely in value since 2012 you might be looking at maybe 4 90 euro bands at most. And it would seem that the actual band rates are going to go down anyway.

    New build house in 2020. Current Value 445k. LPT basic is 765. Final payable LPT will be 688 Euro after 10 % reduction from the county council.


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    #99
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,116 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    jinish wrote: »
    New build house in 2020. Current Value 445k. LPT basic is 765. Final payable LPT will be 688 Euro after 10 % reduction from the county council.

    That new houses were going to be due for LPT at some point has been known since LPT was introduced. If you weren't aware of this it isn't anyone elses fault. For much of 2020 that due date was going to be 2021, so you've basically got another year off.

    Its quite likely the LPT that gets charged will be more like 500 after the rate adjustments anyway.


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    #100
    jinish
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭jinish


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    Is your name on that title deeds? If so the house belongs to you - the banks just have a charge on it - but they don’t own it. For instance if the bank owned it they could sell it but they don’t - you on the other hand could sell it and pay the bank back.

    Our name is on the title deed. I am not mourning, but still...

    If I miss few months of payments, the bank could repossess the house. Because it's still not mine.

    What's the point in paying higher band tax? Not even a mortgage interest tax relief.

    I think the middle-income earners are the one who gets ****ed all the time.


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    #101
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,184 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Why doesn’t the government tax the rental income of investment properties owned by cuckoo funds.

    You know, make the rich pay some tax?

    The rental income collected by REITs is taxed, as it is paid out to the shareholders of the REITs.

    Regarding foreign funds, I'm not sure.


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    #102
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,184 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    jinish wrote: »
    I mortgaged a house last year. The house belongs to the bank. I will have to pay the mortgage for the next 33 years. It is not mine.
    Now I need to fork an extra 780 per year.

    Banks do not own houses.

    Why does this have to be repeated over and over.

    You own your house.


    I have a mortgage. The bank does not own my house. I own my house. If you look up the Land Registry, I am the owner.

    Can we try to raise the level of debate?


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    #103
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ger Roe wrote: »
    Fair? Not by a long shot.....

    Actually it is very fair

    The higher the value of your home, the more you pay

    I see a lot disagreeing with me in this thread wrt doubling the LPT, and thats fine, people dont like taxes, fair enough.

    However everything provided by your national and local govts has to be paid for.

    Some say they want to see what they are getting for their money, well here's a short list
    • libraries
    • schools
    • hospitals
    • military
    • roads
    • trains
    • ports
    • police
    • street lights
    • street bins
    • national parks
    • museums
    • etc etc etc etc

    some may not like it and grumble, thats to be expected, but trust me, the LPT changing is only the tip of the iceberg
    • Covid costs have to be paid for
    • Reduced excise on fuels needs to be replaced somehow
    • Escalation in the costs of implementing a carbon neutral economy
    • Higher social welfare costs
    • Higher heathcare costs of an aging population
    • Higher pension costs and meeting underfunding of existing pensions

    There's a lot more pain coming. Regardless of who is in govt all this has to be paid for somehow, the LPT is way overdue for a shakeup and I only hope its updated to properly reflect current prices and funding requirements


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    #104
    C14N
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭C14N


    howiya wrote: »
    Property tax is regressive because there is no consideration of an individuals ability to pay.

    Very simplistic example. Eoin O'Broin and his neighbour own houses with equal value or within the same band. Eoin earns a TDs salary while the neighbour earns 30-40k a year yet they will pay the same amount of LPT.

    On the other hand income tax is progressive because Eoin will pay more than the neighbour.

    This would make sense if income was the only measure of how well-off someone is, but it ignores that both the TD and the neighbour have comparable levels of wealth, which is what this is a tax on.
    Ger Roe wrote: »
    Because it has no relationship with your ability to pay. It is a notional value should you want to sell your house and would be OK if you paid it then. But .... my wages have not increased and I don't see how I need to pay more tax because my neighbours have sold their houses and apparently raised the value of my house at the same time.

    If your property tax goes up then its because you own an asset that has greatly increased in value. For the most part, that is going to be because the land you own has become more valuable. You have gained a large amount of wealth that you didn't have to work for and that has been untaxed. If you bought a house for €400k and its now worth €600k, then yes, unfortunately you do have to pay more, but also you now effectively have access to €200k you didn't before. As far as outcomes go, this is not one I would really imagine being overly upset with if it happened to me. You've basically hit an economic jackpot. It's like finding out there is a substantial gold deposit under your house. The house didn't increase in value because of your neighbours, the price they sell it at is just an indication of its real value.
    schmittel wrote: »
    They plan to replace it with a wealth tax. A lot of Revenue to be raised from the never SF voters.

    This would effectively wind up doing the same thing, since most people have most of their wealth tied up in their houses anyway, and examples from other countries show that hiding non-land assets away from the tax man is extremely easy.


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    #105
    touts
    Registered Users Posts: 6,459 ✭✭✭touts


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Actually it is very fair

    The higher the value of your home, the more you pay

    I see a lot disagreeing with me in this thread wrt doubling the LPT, and thats fine, people dont like taxes, fair enough.

    However everything provided by your national and local govts has to be paid for.

    Some say they want to see what they are getting for their money, well here's a short list
    • libraries
    • schools
    • hospitals
    • military
    • roads
    • trains
    • ports
    • police
    • street lights
    • street bins
    • national parks
    • museums
    • etc etc etc etc

    some may not like it and grumble, thats to be expected, but trust me, the LPT changing is only the tip of the iceberg
    • Covid costs have to be paid for
    • Reduced excise on fuels needs to be replaced somehow
    • Escalation in the costs of implementing a carbon neutral economy
    • Higher social welfare costs
    • Higher heathcare costs of an aging population
    • Higher pension costs and meeting underfunding of existing pensions

    There's a lot more pain coming. Regardless of who is in govt all this has to be paid for somehow, the LPT is way overdue for a shakeup and I only hope its updated to properly reflect current prices and funding requirements

    LIST]
    [*]libraries. I live about 20km from a library
    [*]schools Local council doesn't pay for this
    [*]hospitals Local council doesn't pay for this
    [*]military Local council doesn't pay for this and I live 40km from the nearest Army Barracks in another county
    [*]roads Car tax pays for this
    [*]trains Local council doesn't pay for this and I have to drive 30km to get a train in another county
    [*]ports Local council doesn't pay for this and I'm 70km from a port in another county
    [*]police Local council doesn't pay for this and my local Gardai station was sold last year. My nearest Gardai station is now (I **** you not) in another county.
    [*]street lights Don't have any within 5km so I'll be knocked down/mugged long before I reach it.
    [*]street bins 5km+ to the nearest one.
    [*]national parks Local council doesn't pay for this and as far as I can work out the nearest one is in Killarney about 3 counties from where I live
    [*]museums 20km to the nearest one
    [*]etc etc etc etc
    [/LIST]

    If that's what my LPT is supposed to be paying for I'm getting robbed blind. It's no wonder my council gets a budget of just over €900 per person and Dublin City gets a budget of nearly €1900 per person.


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    #106
    Tallaght_Sale
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭Tallaght_Sale


    C14N wrote: »
    This would make sense if income was the only measure of how well-off someone is, but it ignores that both the TD and the neighbour have comparable levels of wealth, which is what this is a tax on.



    If your property tax goes up then its because you own an asset that has greatly increased in value. For the most part, that is going to be because the land you own has become more valuable. You have gained a large amount of wealth that you didn't have to work for and that has been untaxed. If you bought a house for €400k and its now worth €600k, then yes, unfortunately you do have to pay more, but also you now effectively have access to €200k you didn't before. As far as outcomes go, this is not one I would really imagine being overly upset with if it happened to me. You've basically hit an economic jackpot. It's like finding out there is a substantial gold deposit under your house. The house didn't increase in value because of your neighbours, the price they sell it at is just an indication of its real value.



    This would effectively wind up doing the same thing, since most people have most of their wealth tied up in their houses anyway, and examples from other countries show that hiding non-land assets away from the tax man is extremely easy.

    No this is not fair as you have not crystallised your "gain" until sold. So if not sold then it's not an asset.

    A fairer approach (as if we need ANOTHER tax on the middle working class...) would be a tax based on disposal of the years you had in the place (capped at say 10 years), or tax based on leverage of the asset value (Eg if you remortgaged).

    Taxing people based on a non crystallised value is patently unfair.


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    #107
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,904 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Allowing for some exceptions, inherited wealth now dwindled and so on, is the value of a particular home, for the vast majority of cases, not actually quite strongly correlated with the income levels therein? It certainly is for homes acquired within the the lifetime of extant mortgages.

    For older people on pension incomes, the option remains to partly or wholly defer the tax and let the value of the asset cover the cost after they have passed.

    For example, a nice juicy 4 bed semi home in an established suburb like Dundrum or Raheny, built in the early 70s, bought by a couple now retired, family raised and gone. A good average market value today would be €750,000 and on that basis LPT is €1,400 per annum approx. Even if they defer the whole tax for 20 years, thats €30,000 or so with costs of deferral.

    That leaves a value of €720,000 to be inherited by the family heirs. But, of course it does not, because that home is not going to be the same value in 20 years, it'll be 1.5 or 2 million quid - and in no sense is LPT keeping up with property values, we are eight years in and still no revaluation!!

    Even if 3 or 4 kids inherit, the deferred LPT paid only lowers the amount they have to pay in inheritance tax on the house anyway, so they aren't bothered.

    The only unfair aspect of LPT is the exemption from 2013 and that is now being addressed. In future, all homes should become liable for it for the first calendar year after 12 months of occupancy, i.e., if I buy a house tomorrow, my LPT liability kicks in on 01/01/2023.


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    #108
    OU812
    Registered Users Posts: 6,040 ✭✭✭OU812


    While I don't agree with the tax, surely the amount paid should be based on the outstanding mortgage on the property rather than it's "worth"?

    I'm probably going to be carried out of my house in a box, so I don't see it as an asset, it's just where I keep my stuff & sleep. I bought it back in the early 2000s & am currently putting the third extension to it on it at the moment. This * may* add value to it if I was to sell it, but the fact is, I'm very highly unlikely to.

    When we're gone, the kids will get it & will possibly sell it (I'd encourage them to let it) and the value will be realised properly then, or not as the case & property market may be.

    I'm just going to do what I did last time. Base it off the Property Price Register. That's the official guide of sale prices as issued by the government.

    Last time the average price of houses sold in the area was €245k I pay my property tax based on that. Looking at it now, I see the average sales price is €340k an increase of 39% which will equate to approx €9 a month extra.


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    #109
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    touts wrote: »
    LIST]
    [*]libraries. I live about 20km from a library
    [*]schools Local council doesn't pay for this
    [*]hospitals Local council doesn't pay for this
    [*]military Local council doesn't pay for this and I live 40km from the nearest Army Barracks in another county
    [*]roads Car tax pays for this
    [*]trains Local council doesn't pay for this and I have to drive 30km to get a train in another county
    [*]ports Local council doesn't pay for this and I'm 70km from a port in another county
    [*]police Local council doesn't pay for this and my local Gardai station was sold last year. My nearest Gardai station is now (I **** you not) in another county.
    [*]street lights Don't have any within 5km so I'll be knocked down/mugged long before I reach it.
    [*]street bins 5km+ to the nearest one.
    [*]national parks Local council doesn't pay for this and as far as I can work out the nearest one is in Killarney about 3 counties from where I live
    [*]museums 20km to the nearest one
    [*]etc etc etc etc
    [/LIST]

    If that's what my LPT is supposed to be paying for I'm getting robbed blind. It's no wonder my council gets a budget of just over €900 per person and Dublin City gets a budget of nearly €1900 per person.

    Read my post again, you seem to have missed something


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    #110
    Bananaleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf


    Question - if you are living in an estate that has not been taken in charge by the council, yet are paying property tax, is this a bit of a contradiction?


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    #111
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Bananaleaf wrote: »
    Question - if you are living in an estate that has not been taken in charge by the council, yet are paying property tax, is this a bit of a contradiction?

    The LPT is not linked to a council taking charge of an estate, so no


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    #112
    Bananaleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The LPT is not linked to a council taking charge of an estate, so no

    Thank you


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    #113
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Ger Roe wrote: »
    Fair? Not by a long shot..... It's an increased notional valuation that you have no control over, that has to be paid from the less rising pot of your personal (after tax already paid) income.

    Pensioners are paying for the privilege of still living in a house they just about scraped by to pay for over many years, and they are now being hit with increasing taxes in their twilight years because a failed government housing policy that results in increased demand is apparently causing someone else's valuation of their property to rise????

    It's not double what it currently is, because there would be riots on the streets and loss of election seats. That's why it's a mess, it was a lip service introduction intended to introduced softly and ramped up later, but no government has had the nerve to do so, because even they know it isn't fair.

    Is it fair that pensioners are getting a pension paid by current workers and not by their own contributions?

    It's bizarre to refer to increased demand for housing as a failed government housing policy. There wasn't an increased demand for housing when the economy sucked and workers were emigrating.


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    #114
    C14N
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭C14N


    Tallaght_Sale wrote: »
    No this is not fair as you have not crystallised your "gain" until sold. So if not sold then it's not an asset.

    Taxing people based on a non crystallised value is patently unfair.

    It is an asset though. Whether you sell it or not, it has that value, which now belongs to you. The gain may not be crystallised yet but you still have access to that wealth through selling it if and when you want to.

    The main issue with it that I see is that it taxes the improved value of property, which effectively discourages improving your land. Any improvements that you do yourself (such as renovations or improving efficiency) you should be fully entitled to without tax, it's only the value of the land that acts as a source of unearned wealth and which benefits from increased stabilisation.


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    #115
    ...Ghost...
    Registered Users Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    C14N wrote: »
    It is an asset though. Whether you sell it or not, it has that value, which now belongs to you. The gain may not be crystallised yet but you still have access to that wealth through selling it if and when you want to.

    The main issue with it that I see is that it taxes the improved value of property, which effectively discourages improving your land. Any improvements that you do yourself (such as renovations or improving efficiency) you should be fully entitled to without tax, it's only the value of the land that acts as a source of unearned wealth and which benefits from increased stabilisation.

    The home is not an asset. Some argue otherwise, but it really isn't an asset, it's a liability. Talk to anyone in negative equity. If my house was sold today, it wouldn't pay the mortgage. Yet I still have to pay a tax on the family home, most of which goes to other counties.

    Stay Free



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    #116
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,536 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    So you go to work.

    Your earn money

    You pay tax on that money, PAYE, PRSI, USC.

    With that money you buy something.

    You own it and the government taxes you for owning it.

    Seems fair.


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    #117
    Allinall
    Registered Users Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭Allinall


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    So you go to work.

    Your earn money

    You pay tax on that money, PAYE, PRSI, USC.

    With that money you buy something.

    You own it and the government taxes you for owning it.

    Seems fair.

    No different to owning a car, or a dog.


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    #118
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,536 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Allinall wrote: »
    No different to owning a car, or a dog.

    I don’t pay tax for owning a car.

    I don’t have a dog, and you don’t get taxed for owning a dog.


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    #119
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭amacca


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    I don’t pay tax for owning a car.
    .

    You kinda sorta do......in a number of if you'll excuse the pun "roundabout' ways


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    #120
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,001 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    lawrencesummers wrote:
    I don’t pay tax for owning a car.
    lawrencesummers wrote:
    I don’t have a dog, and you don’t get taxed for owning a dog.

    So no taxes on purchases, consumables, infrastructure use, etc, etc, that's interesting, how yea pulling that off?


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    #121
    lisasimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 1,834 ✭✭✭lisasimpson


    I think modt if the giving out is been done by those with houses built since 2013. If your home was built before 2012 you would have a different opinion. I think its only fair this 2013 loop hole is getting closed.
    There are still many households getting away with it due to the ghost estates exemption. The town i grew up in a number of estates fall under this exemption. I presume this classification is going to be reviewed. Esp in larger towns and urban area some of these estates are now finished off or in the process of getting completed


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