I have just been offered redundancy..

WhyTheFace · 01-06-2021 6:09pm #1

Hi,

I have been told today that my position is being made redundant. My employer offered me an alternative position but at less pay and a role I have no interest in.

There is a 3 months notice stipulation in my contract so my job is secure until September but I have another lined up, which of course I won't be telling him.

My employer said there will be a 30 day consultation process where we will look at my options, but I am not interested, although may play ball somewhat until I know more of my rights.

I have been with the company 2 years and 2 months.
Full time contract.
Salary of €95k.
15 days annual leave outstanding.

I have no interest hanging on for the sake of it and would like to know what my next steps should be?

What could I expect as a reasonable redundancy given my circumstances?

Thanks in advance

SouthWesterly · 01-06-2021 6:12pm

Legal payment is 2 weeks per year. What are they offering?

WhyTheFace · 01-06-2021 6:16pm

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Legal payment is 2 weeks per year. What are they offering?

Nothing yet as only told today and they expect a consultation process to look at options.

vandriver · 01-06-2021 6:19pm

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Legal payment is 2 weeks per year. What are they offering?

2 weeks a year plus a week,so 5 weeks minimum due.
BUT...this is based on a maximum of €600 a week,so 3k is the minimum .

ForestFire · 01-06-2021 6:20pm

I'm no expert on this topic but a few points to note.

Your only in the company 2 years and 2 months?
If they left you go a few weeks ago, you would have got nothing!!
Are other people ion the company being made redundant?
Do you think the company is in a position to pay over and above statuary redundancies (i.e. how is business in general at the company)?

I'd start reading link below, if I was you, but I am going to put a figure of 3K payment, if you qualify (2 weeks per year + 1 week limited to €600).

Also not sure of the exact rules on tax due on redundancy also these days.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/redundancy/

WhyTheFace · 01-06-2021 6:23pm

ForestFire wrote: »

I'm no expert on this topic but a few points to note.

Your only in the company 2 years and 2 months?
If they left you go a few weeks ago, you would have got nothing!!
Are other people ion the company being made redundant?
Do you think the company is in a position to pay over and above statuary redundancies (i.e. how is business in general at the company)?

I'd start reading link below, if I was you, but I am going to put a figure of 3K payment, if you qualify (2 weeks per year + 1 week limited to €600).

Also not sure of the exact rules on tax due on redundancy also these days.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/redundancy/

About 12 middle mgmt made redundant today, mgmt outsourced.

I will be moving back to my old employer who would be a competitor.

Is it possible to be paid gardening leave and redundancy?

Atlantic Dawn · 01-06-2021 6:23pm

A lot of places would give 2 weeks statutory (to a max of €600 per week) per year of service and 4 weeks salary per year of service.

Back of an envelope calculation would be about €17k, that would be generally tax free.

krissovo · 01-06-2021 6:28pm

Aim high is a good approach, do you know anyone else who has been made redundant recently maybe see if you can find out what they were offered?

As a minimum I would expect 4wks per year but 5 or 6 would be ok.
Gardening leave until September would be nice
Remove any contractual anti competitor agreements that maybe in your contract

You get €200k in your lifetime tax free allowance for redundancy

Tell me how · 01-06-2021 6:31pm

Given your salary and the amount of time in the company, any redundancy payment will likely be fairly inconsequential in the greater scheme of things.

I'd focus your mental energy on deciding what you want to do next. It may be that they would pay for some training in a specific field in lieu of redundancy if you knew there was something that interested you and that might be a better use of 3-6K or whatever you may get. (I'm not sure exactly, I understand 600 is max if mandatory but I know of one person and the company honoured the weekly rate they were on when calculating redundancy.

Obviously I wouldn't take any more holidays before leaving if you haven't anything booked that you really want to take.
Being made redundant can create mental challenges in terms of self-confidence, allow yourself some time now to consider how you feel about going back in to the jobs market in this way and what you are going to say in your first interview. You might agree with your current company that the story will be you decided to move on for some reason rather than being made redundant but really is entirely down to your own thought process and how you feel about the whole thing.

WhyTheFace · 01-06-2021 6:32pm

I don't mean to sound stupid here, but if a company only have to pay 2 weeks per year of service why would they pay any more?

If they think I will not have the most productive of 3 months ahead might they just pay me for the 3 months and release me? If so, do I still get redundancy?

Tell me how · 01-06-2021 6:35pm

WhyTheFace wrote: »

I don't mean to sound stupid here, but if a company only have to pay 2 weeks per year of service why would they pay any more?

If they think I will not have the most productive of 3 months ahead might they just pay me for the 3 months and release me? If so, do I still get redundancy?

Because they don't want to appear to their remaining staff that they are penny pinching or being unreasonable if they could afford to pay more.

Be pragmatic, your argument will be that you can expect to be out of work for a period and have to build up your experience and standing in a new company and that you are not asking to hit the jackpot here, but to get what is reasonable given all circumstances.

WhyTheFace · 01-06-2021 6:35pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Given your salary and the amount of time in the company, any redundancy payment will likely be fairly inconsequential in the greater scheme of things.

I'd focus your mental energy on deciding what you want to do next. It may be that they would pay for some training in a specific field in lieu of redundancy if you knew there was something that interested you and that might be a better use of 3-6K or whatever you may get. (I'm not sure exactly, I understand 600 is max if mandatory but I know of one person and the company honoured the weekly rate they were on when calculating redundancy.

Obviously I wouldn't take any more holidays before leaving if you haven't anything booked that you really want to take.
Being made redundant can create mental challenges in terms of self-confidence, allow yourself some time now to consider how you feel about going back in to the jobs market in this way and what you are going to say in your first interview. You might agree with your current company that the story will be you decided to move on for some reason rather than being made redundant but really is entirely down to your own thought process and how you feel about the whole thing.

I am returning to my old job, I had agreed to this last week and was planning on handing in my notice.

Then notified today of redundancy. Extremely fortunate, just want to get the most from redundancy.

WhyTheFace · 01-06-2021 6:38pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Because they don't want to appear to their remaining staff that they are penny pinching or being unreasonable if they could afford to pay more.

Be pragmatic, your argument will be that you can expect to be out of work for a period and have to build up your experience and standing in a new company and that you are not asking to hit the jackpot here, but to get what is reasonable given all circumstances.

The company is not in a strong position financially so they won't care about being seen as penny pinchers.

Am I right in thinking if I am put on gardening leave I lose my 15 days annual leave?

screamer · 01-06-2021 6:39pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Because they don't want to appear to their remaining staff that they are penny pinching or being unreasonable if they could afford to pay more.

Be pragmatic, your argument will be that you can expect to be out of work for a period and have to build up your experience and standing in a new company and that you are not asking to hit the jackpot here, but to get what is reasonable given all circumstances.

They won’t pay anymore so as not to set a precedent for future redundancies. I’d not expect anything more than statutory. If you do get more that’s a bonus.

Tell me how · 01-06-2021 6:43pm

screamer wrote: »

They won’t pay anymore so as not to set a precedent for future redundancies. I’d not expect anything more than statutory. If you do get more that’s a bonus.

I know for a fact of companies who have.

Tell me how · 01-06-2021 6:49pm

WhyTheFace wrote: »

I am returning to my old job, I had agreed to this last week and was planning on handing in my notice.

Then notified today of redundancy. Extremely fortunate, just want to get the most from redundancy.

Don't tell them you have a new job lined up if you haven't already told them.
Have you given your new (old) company a start date?

Factor that in to your thought process, if you do want to take time off, I would suggest doing so between the roles rather than starting in new job and then taking time a couple months later but that's just a personal preference.

If the company is tight for money and you've only been there a short time, you may be limited to just the statutory and given your salary range, that really only equates to a couple of weeks income.

WhyTheFace · 01-06-2021 6:49pm

If they offered me redundancy next week do they still have to pay the 3 month's notice period in my contract?

Graham · 01-06-2021 6:58pm

screamer wrote: »

They won’t pay anymore so as not to set a precedent for future redundancies. I’d not expect anything more than statutory. If you do get more that’s a bonus.

It's not at all unusual for companies to pay over and above the statutory minimums, particularly common in larger multinationals.

WhyTheFace · 01-06-2021 7:21pm

I am going to take the worst case scenario and assume I will get paid statutory which will be 2 x 2 + 1 = 5 weeks x 600e = €3k

But I am legally entitled to stay in the company for 3 months and paid in full.

If they felt I would not be engaged and there is a risk of me going to a competitor after could I suggest they just pay me the 3 months and I leave with immediate effect. In which case, would I lose redundancy?

athlone573 · 01-06-2021 7:27pm

WhyTheFace wrote: »

I am going to take the worst case scenario and assume I will get paid statutory which will be 2 x 2 + 1 = 5 weeks x 600e = €3k

But I am legally entitled to stay in the company for 3 months and paid in full.

If they felt I would not be engaged and there is a risk of me going to a competitor after could I suggest they just pay me the 3 months and I leave with immediate effect. In which case, would I lose redundancy?

They still have to pay you your notice as per your contract and any accrued holiday, on top of statutory (that's the bare minimum)

Many places (particularly if unionised) will pay up to 4 or 5 weeks per year on top of that. Ask around (quietly) what others have been getting. Whatever you do don't hand in your notice before you know the package they're offering.

Redundancy is untaxed (up to certain limits) which is another reason to hang on for it.

Tell me how · 01-06-2021 7:34pm

WhyTheFace wrote: »

I am going to take the worst case scenario and assume I will get paid statutory which will be 2 x 2 + 1 = 5 weeks x 600e = €3k

But I am legally entitled to stay in the company for 3 months and paid in full.

If they felt I would not be engaged and there is a risk of me going to a competitor after could I suggest they just pay me the 3 months and I leave with immediate effect. In which case, would I lose redundancy?

Yes.

WhyTheFace · 01-06-2021 7:35pm

athlone573 wrote: »

They still have to pay you your notice as per your contract and any accrued holiday, on top of statutory (that's the bare minimum)

Many places (particularly if unionised) will pay up to 4 or 5 weeks per year on top of that. Ask around (quietly) what others have been getting. Whatever you do don't hand in your notice before you know the package they're offering.

Redundancy is untaxed (up to certain limits) which is another reason to hang on for it.

100% won't hand in my notice in.

I just want to get out of there as quickly as possible with as much as possible.

I need to start my new job in a month or so, so will tell them I am not interested in an alternative, lower paid position and for them to come up with a package.

WhyTheFace · 01-06-2021 7:36pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Yes.

Ok, but it would still be worth it.

cdeb · 01-06-2021 7:36pm

WhyTheFace wrote: »

If they offered me redundancy next week do they still have to pay the 3 month's notice period in my contract?

I would assume so if it's a contractual term that either side has to give three months' notice.

It would probably be common enough that at least part of that is gardening leave because you'll get to a stage where you're just moping about.

Just be careful with the new job - it does sound like you've timed things very well, but you don't want to give them a reason to say "Ah sure you were leaving us in six weeks anyway; that's all we're going to pay you". It'd be hard for them to make that argument (I presume the redundancy offer is formally documented?) but worth keeping in mind anyway.

Tell me how · 01-06-2021 7:39pm

WhyTheFace wrote: »

Ok, but it would still be worth it.

If you got payment in lieu of notice rather than 3k payment? Yes, definitely it would.

Another advantage of this is that it doesn't appear on your file as having received redundancy at any point up to now and makes it easier to explain to future employers that you left of your own volition rather than feeling you have to 'justify' your being made redundant.

Darc19 · 01-06-2021 7:43pm

My guess is it's a tech or other specialist company that is doing the farm out of certain positions.

The bigger companies have almost set a standard of 2-4 weeks in addition to statutory.

So I suspect €20-25k Inc holiday.

Ask them if you can leave early (it would be unpaid)

athlone573 · 01-06-2021 7:43pm

Tell me how wrote: »

If you got payment in lieu of notice rather than 3k payment? Yes, definitely it would.

Another advantage of this is that it doesn't appear on your file as having received redundancy at any point up to now and makes it easier to explain to future employers that you left of your own volition rather than feeling you have to 'justify' your being made redundant.

I don't think there's any stigma attached to having been made redundant. It's pretty common actually.

If you haven't already, I would avoid quoting personal details in case your employer might be reading this, you never know.

cdeb · 01-06-2021 7:44pm

athlone573 wrote: »

I don't think there's any stigma attached to having been made redundant. It's pretty common actually.

Agreed. Also not sure what file it would appear on? Especially if there's no gap on your CV, I wouldn't think twice about it.

Tell me how · 01-06-2021 8:05pm

athlone573 wrote: »

I don't think there's any stigma attached to having been made redundant. It's pretty common actually.

If you haven't already, I would avoid quoting personal details in case your employer might be reading this, you never know.

Not that's there a specific stigma associated with it, but it can be useful in some instances to avoid it.

For example, this OP has already agreed to returning to where they worked previously. They may have interviewed for a role there and spoke in a particular manner about why they wanted to do so.

If their employer hears they were made redundant or it was on the cards, they may doubt how enthusiastic they are to come back in to the company. It's not serious, I wouldn't expect they'd withdraw the offer or anything like that but just that it could be better to have your new boss think that you are as motivated to work there as you told them you were.
But I agree, there isn't a general stigma associated with it.

Masala · 01-06-2021 8:12pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

A lot of places would give 2 weeks statutory (to a max of €600 per week) per year of service and 4 weeks salary per year of service.

Back of an envelope calculation would be about €17k, that would be generally tax free.

6 weeks redundancy.... don’t think that’s too common.

Also remember ... payment of your notice and holidays will probably go thru your Salary and be Taxed. Not usually tax free.... so be careful if u told otherwise.

Smee_Again · 01-06-2021 8:16pm

OP I’m in a MNC that’s in rude health but as a result of an acquisition and subsequent restructuring some mid-level employees were made redundant.

The package was 3 weeks per year worked which included the statutory provision rolled up into it.

Not great to be honest.

cdeb · 01-06-2021 8:18pm

Masala wrote: »

Also remember ... payment of your notice and holidays will probably go thru your Salary and be Taxed. Not usually tax free.... so be careful if u told otherwise.

Will definitely be taxed. Though not sure why anyone would expect otherwise.

jimmycrackcorm · 01-06-2021 8:22pm

WhyTheFace wrote: »

If they offered me redundancy next week do they still have to pay the 3 month's notice period in my contract?

Yes, they are obliged to pay this but it should be factored into the redundancy payment, but you should ask HR about the impact as part of the consultation period. Also, your annual leave due will be included as part of this, as those days will be included in the notice period and not added on. They may require you to work it out so you would end up having to work two months and an additional week out of that.

Not many jobs provide gardening leave, only those where there is a risk of shedding critical information to a competitor.

Congratulations on the redundancy, it's always nice to get some money tax-free.

I once got a redundancy that was around the same time I was due an annual bonus. The company accountant suggested lumping it into the redundancy and that was a nice saving of > 50% on tax for me.

Calahonda52 · 01-06-2021 8:27pm

WhyTheFace wrote: »

100% won't hand in my notice in.

I just want to get out of there as quickly as possible with as much as possible.

I need to start my new job in a month or so, so will tell them I am not interested in an alternative, lower paid position and for them to come up with a package.

You are trying to ride three horses here:
you are contactually tied for three months.
you want to start the new job in month, with a direct competitor.
You want to max out the redundancy.

Is there anything in your contract about working for a direct competitor?

Masala · 01-06-2021 8:29pm

cdeb wrote: »

Will definitely be taxed. Though not sure why anyone would expect otherwise.

Have see cases where employees didn’t work their notice and somehow thought that all monies owed would be tax free in their ‘redundancy’......

jimmycrackcorm · 01-06-2021 8:30pm

WhyTheFace wrote: »

100% won't hand in my notice in.

I just want to get out of there as quickly as possible with as much as possible.

I need to start my new job in a month or so, so will tell them I am not interested in an alternative, lower paid position and for them to come up with a package.

Do you not also have to give three months' notice?

You can ask if you can leave with redundancy in a month's time, by suggesting for example that you are now totally demotivated. But if they think you are doing so because you have a job lined up, then it's a saving for them to not have to pay you that.

By law, there has to be a consultation period, but the company will already know what they are going to offer so you could try to push the process as quickly as possible by saying you will accept and ask how soon you can go.

gordongekko · 01-06-2021 8:43pm

krissovo wrote: »

You get €200k in your lifetime tax free allowance for redundancy

That's not exactly true so don't take your tax advice off the internet.

WhyTheFace · 01-06-2021 9:19pm

Calahonda52 wrote: »

You are trying to ride three horses here:
you are contactually tied for three months.
you want to start the new job in month, with a direct competitor.
You want to max out the redundancy.

Is there anything in your contract about working for a direct competitor?

Surely irrelevant if they are letting me go?

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Do you not also have to give three months' notice?

You can ask if you can leave with redundancy in a month's time, by suggesting for example that you are now totally demotivated. But if they think you are doing so because you have a job lined up, then it's a saving for them to not have to pay you that.

By law, there has to be a consultation period, but the company will already know what they are going to offer so you could try to push the process as quickly as possible by saying you will accept and ask how soon you can go.

This is what I am thinking.

EMail them to say I will consider alternative positions as part of consultation period but ask them from the outset what their redundancy package is.

The longer they drag it out the more salary they have to pay me surely?

01-06-2021 10:00pm

WhyTheFace wrote: »

Surely irrelevant if they are letting me go?

Not necessarily. It depends on how the contract is worded. The employer would have to seek an injunction, and the courts are reluctant to give them, and I'd imagine they'd be wary of stopping a redundant employee from working elsewhere.

On the other hand, the wording of a contract might also be taken in court as covering both being employed by a competitor AND seeking employment with a competitor. So even in a redundancy situation, a company could find themselves on solid ground if they were in a position to demonstrate that an employee had sought work with a competitor before their redundancy was announced.

So no, not entirely irrelevant.

F1ngers · 01-06-2021 10:05pm

WhyTheFace wrote: »

There is a 3 months notice stipulation in my contract

WhyTheFace wrote: »

I need to start my new job in a month or so,

Just curious as to how this will work.

Irish_rat · 01-06-2021 10:09pm

This could go terribly wrong, I'd hold off on the new job and get that redundancy package first.

ari101 · 01-06-2021 10:28pm

I'd go into the consultancy with... 'Disappointed but I don't think the alternative suits, so if you can come up with a reasonable offer, it may be better if I just move on'.

Polite and friendly and see what they offer.

Then maybe use getting out early with notice paid (so you can 'focus on the future') as a negotiation option, instead of asking for more weeks per year, or other perks, etc.

Do not tell then you have something lined up.

Technically notice pay, contractual bonus, annual leave, etc. can't be treated as tax free redundancy, but on your salary, 3 months pay might be better than an extra couple of weeks tax free, given the limited service, if they are not being generous.

If a suddenly generous over and above statutory offer materialises then maybe it might be worth asking them to let you go early and maybe even call it quits on part of the notice pay.

Remember you are stressed by the situation and find it difficult to continue working with the end looming etc. etc.

Seen all these tactics used by former colleagues to their advantage on departure.

WhyTheFace · 01-06-2021 10:36pm

ari101 wrote: »

I'd go into the consultancy with... 'Disappointed but I don't think the alternative suits, so if you can come up with a reasonable offer, it may be better if I just move on'.

Polite and friendly and see what they offer.

Then maybe use getting out early with notice paid (so you can 'focus on the future') as a negotiation option, instead of asking for more weeks per year, or other perks, etc.

Do not tell then you have something lined up.

Technically notice pay, contractual bonus, annual leave, etc. can't be treated as tax free redundancy, but on your salary, 3 months pay might be better than an extra couple of weeks tax free, given the limited service, if they are not being generous.

If a suddenly generous over and above statutory offer materialises then maybe it might be worth asking them to let you go early and maybe even call it quits on part of the notice pay.

Remember you are stressed by the situation and find it difficult to continue working with the end looming etc. etc.

Seen all these tactics used by former colleagues to their advantage on departure.

Yes, this sounds like a plan.

I have no intention of leaving on bad terms, so maybe just be upfront and say it is better for both if I exit sooner rather than later.

Am I right in thinking I would be paid (and taxed) for the outstanding annual leave not taken?

ari101 · 01-06-2021 10:40pm

WhyTheFace wrote: »

Yes, this sounds like a plan.

I have no intention of leaving on bad terms, so maybe just be upfront and say it is better for both if I exit sooner rather than later.

Am I right in thinking I would be paid (and taxed) for the outstanding annual leave not taken?

Yes anything earned for the year up to your official last day, less any days taken, is legally yours.

helimachoptor · 01-06-2021 11:03pm

Op, get your payment, get your notice, offer to do a couple of weeks or even a month of handover and sail into the sunset.

WhyTheFace · 02-06-2021 6:36pm

Was told by HR that I had to wait until the end of the consultation period of 30 days before redundancy would be offered.

I have about 4 weeks annual leave left so, if I can get away with it, I will accept redundancy at end of month, give one month's notice and then take 4 weeks annual leave.

Boss has already said he suspects I'll be going back to my old employer and gave me a spiel about intellectual capital theft so he probably won't want me hanging around for too long!

C3PO · 02-06-2021 7:44pm

Am I the only one that thinks that the OP should hand in his notice and go to his new job as he initially intended to? Apart from it being the “right thing to do” it is the scenario that is least likely to get messy!

WhyTheFace · 02-06-2021 8:58pm

C3PO wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks that the OP should hand in his notice and go to his new job as he initially intended to? Apart from it being the “right thing to do” it is the scenario that is least likely to get messy!

I have worked hard for two years in this company for a new owner to come in and say he is outsourcing the entire mgmt structure. He insulted me by saying both a few weeks ago and on the day of notification of the change "you've got a future with this company, you are clearly strong on such and such" and then said I had various options if I wanted to stay.. these options were insulting if I'm honest and he clearly wants to cut costs and probably only wants to hold on to me as he knows I'll likely return to my old boss. (I'm returning on a higher salary than what I am on with my current boss).

So I think it is only right I try to be paid something in return.

In reality, if it does start to get messy then I will review the situation and may indeed just walk away. But I think it is too early to adopt that attitude. Why make it easy on them?

If redundancy was an easy process for employers you can be sure we would see a lot more of it. Not that I am saying there are not plenty of genuine cases which are needed to ensure the financial stability of a company.

mugsymugsy · 02-06-2021 8:58pm

C3PO wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks that the OP should hand in his notice and go to his new job as he initially intended to? Apart from it being the “right thing to do” it is the scenario that is least likely to get messy!

Yep only one.

Tell me how · 02-06-2021 9:56pm

C3PO wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks that the OP should hand in his notice and go to his new job as he initially intended to? Apart from it being the “right thing to do” it is the scenario that is least likely to get messy!

It probably would be cleaner and the funds involved are likely quite small but I think the OP is on fairly sound ground given their explanation to your post and having read that I'm inclined to agree with them that 'the right thing to do' is to look out for their own best interests in closing this chapter of their career.

dashoonage · 02-06-2021 10:12pm

C3PO wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks that the OP should hand in his notice and go to his new job as he initially intended to? Apart from it being the “right thing to do” it is the scenario that is least likely to get messy!

As a plumber from Tallaght once said, get in , get paid, get out.

I have just been offered redundancy..

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