Winning Hearts and Minds

Feisar · 24-05-2021 12:11PM

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

So the answers is do not bother?

No not at all. Just that YouTube might not be the best use of ones efforts.

Grizzly 45 · 24-05-2021 12:11PM

Feisar wrote: »

Twas more of a comment about the backwards types you were talking about!

But meant in good sport.

I know... We can slag each other here no bother as we aren't little biatch snowflakes that get offended by any and everything.:p

Grizzly 45 · 24-05-2021 12:16PM

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

So here you are now. I am a member of public who knows nowt about shooting except you kill wild animals. So convince me 'how' you put more than you take back and do good.

List your stuff.

^THIS^... We all should be able to bang of at least 5 points for pro shooting/gun ownership if ever challenged in a discussion straight off.

But remember you are arguing against emotivism, and facts don't matter anymore in the age of "MuH FeeLingZ is Hurt, you NAZI!"debate:rolleyes:

Bog Trotter99 · 24-05-2021 12:19PM

Feisar wrote: »

No not at all. Just that YouTube might not be the best use of ones efforts.

Point taken.

But if others can put lots of shooting vids up, then why can't conservation vids work especially if farming vids have gone ballistic?

Bog Trotter99 · 24-05-2021 12:21PM

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

^THIS^... We all should be able to bang of at least 5 points for pro shooting/gun ownership if ever challenged in a discussion straight off.

But remember you are arguing against emotivism, and facts don't matter anymore in the age of "MuH FeeLingZ is Hurt, you NAZI!"debate:rolleyes:

No Grizzly............ I am a member of the public. My kids tell me about veganism every week because their teacher talks of nothing else.

I want to be convinced by your arguments that those nasty men with guns do more good than what I have been told.

Convince me!!!!

Short sweet examples and explanations.

Rows Grower · 24-05-2021 12:25PM

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

^THIS^... We all should be able to bang of at least 5 points for pro shooting/gun ownership if ever challenged in a discussion straight off.

But remember you are arguing against emotivism, and facts don't matter anymore in the age of "MuH FeeLingZ is Hurt, you NAZI!"debate:rolleyes:

Why should we have to prepare 5 points? In the real world anyone that asks me why do I hunt, shoot or fish I just tell them it's what I like to do.

I don't need to convert them to my choice of lifestyle, if they are interested in learning I'll help all I can but if it's a debate they are looking for or want to make me feel guilty in any way I just politely tell them jog on.

Richard308 · 24-05-2021 12:33PM

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

No Grizzly............ I am a member of the public. My kids tell me about veganism every week because their teacher talks of nothing else.

I want to be convinced by your arguments that those nasty men with guns do more good than what I have been told.

Convince me!!!!

Short sweet examples and explanations.

You need to talk to your school principal, teachers aren’t allowed bring personal beliefs to the classroom. There’s a curriculum for a reason.

What about a pro hunting teacher in school going on about hunting all the time.

Richard308 · 24-05-2021 12:36PM

Feisar wrote: »

Be a good yank and go home! :D:D

Right Grizzly is a yank…… that explains a lot. ðŸ˜‚ not meant as offensive, just I’ll understand better your position on certain topics of discussion.

Feisar · 24-05-2021 12:47PM

Rows Grower wrote: »

Why should we have to prepare 5 points? In the real world anyone that asks me why do I hunt, shoot or fish I just tell them it's what I like to do.

I don't need to convert them to my choice of lifestyle, if they are interested in learning I'll help all I can but if it's a debate they are looking for or want to make me feel guilty in any way I just politely tell them jog on.

But it's the same people/society that you are telling to jog on that are putting through a lead ban. We are not in our own little bubble unfortunately.

24-05-2021 01:01PM

There is huge scope for conservation projects from Gun Clubs. It does very much depend on the people in the club, what there outlook is, as said people shoot because they enjoy the pastime, a lot of groups may want to be just let alone to get on with what they always have done.

Conservation by clubs is massive in the US, in Ireland Ballydangan Bog with Red Grouse (and now Curlew) and Lough Boora for Grey Partridge are good examples. For anyone wanting to set up their own project it would be well to speak with these guys.

Deer, especially the non-native Fallow and Muntjac are a huge problem for old woodland, preventing establishment of saplings, eradicating ground flora. Without predators the only limitation is culling. Maybe get involved in fencing deer exclosures, census work as well as shooting; some of this probably goes on already, but explain and publicise this.

Most professional ecologists and conservation workers are very attuned to the realities of population control, it is always best to work with them, they are not the enemy.

The pond creation idea is excellent, again best to ensure no important habitat is removed in their creation, but something that could be shouted from the rooftops if done

Bog Trotter99 · 24-05-2021 02:00PM

Richard308 wrote: »

You need to talk to your school principal, teachers aren’t allowed bring personal beliefs to the classroom. There’s a curriculum for a reason.

What about a pro hunting teacher in school going on about hunting all the time.

It was just an example to kick it off. I didnt actually mean the teacher is a veggie ramming it down the kids throats.:rolleyes: Purely all fictitious.

Bog Trotter99 · 24-05-2021 02:03PM

Deleted User wrote: »

There is huge scope for conservation projects from Gun Clubs. It does very much depend on the people in the club, what there outlook is, as said people shoot because they enjoy the pastime, a lot of groups may want to be just let alone to get on with what they always have done.

Conservation by clubs is massive in the US, in Ireland Ballydangan Bog with Red Grouse (and now Curlew) and Lough Boora for Grey Partridge are good examples. For anyone wanting to set up their own project it would be well to speak with these guys.

Deer, especially the non-native Fallow and Muntjac are a huge problem for old woodland, preventing establishment of saplings, eradicating ground flora. Without predators the only limitation is culling. Maybe get involved in fencing deer exclosures, census work as well as shooting; some of this probably goes on already, but explain and publicise this.

Most professional ecologists and conservation workers are very attuned to the realities of population control, it is always best to work with them, they are not the enemy.

The pond creation idea is excellent, again best to ensure no important habitat is removed in their creation, but something that could be shouted from the rooftops if done

Ok sir.

Why cant the land owner put up proper fencing to keep the deer out?

If the numbers get too big why can't a professional marksmen shoot the deer painlessly instead of you blood thirsty hunters with guns which shouldn't be allowed?

Bog Trotter99 · 24-05-2021 02:07PM

Rows Grower wrote: »

Why should we have to prepare 5 points? In the real world anyone that asks me why do I hunt, shoot or fish I just tell them it's what I like to do.

I don't need to convert them to my choice of lifestyle, if they are interested in learning I'll help all I can but if it's a debate they are looking for or want to make me feel guilty in any way I just politely tell them jog on.

Because the public who will decide through 'public opinion' what is acceptable and not acceptable in todays society. In your case you want to inform the public of what a great and necessary service hunters do for conservation.

You just fell at the first fence.

Feisar · 24-05-2021 02:10PM

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Ok sir.

Why cant the land owner put up proper fencing to keep the deer out?

If the numbers get too big why can't a professional marksmen shoot the deer painlessly instead of you blood thirsty hunters with guns which shouldn't be allowed?

I'll play.

Firstly one needs a 10 foot fence to keep deer out. Erecting that around farmland is going to cost a pretty penny.

Secondly can you show me to the section of the yellow pages with these pro marksmen? Also as they are professionals, who's going to be paying them?
And since it's a service we are paying for please make sure the operatives that are supplied have their city and guilds marksmanship qualification with them.

Bog Trotter99 · 24-05-2021 02:13PM

Feisar wrote: »

I'll play.

Firstly one needs a 10 foot fence to keep deer out. Erecting that around farmland is going to cost a pretty penny.

Secondly can you show me to the section of the yellow pages with these pro marksmen? Also as they are professionals, who's going to be paying them?
And since it's a service we are paying for please make sure the operatives that are supplied have their city and guilds marksmanship qualification with them.

But dont all these rich farmers with their new 4x4's get grants for this? It's tax payers cash and I have heard of farmers down our way who get hundreds of thousands in grants.

Is it not under pest control and dont the army have marksmen who can do this job?

Feisar · 24-05-2021 02:33PM

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

But dont all these rich farmers with their new 4x4's get grants for this? It's tax payers cash and I have heard of farmers down our way who get hundreds of thousands in grants.

Is it not under pest control and dont the army have marksmen who can do this job?

Your comment about "rich farmers" is baseless conjecture. Tax payers cash? Please point me in the direction of the grant that is going to pay for these 10 foot fences?

Please give a pest control service a call and see for yourself however I can tell you it is not.
I am sure the army have markspersons capable of the job however please advise on:

Insurance coverage
The Irish Army's interest/availability
Willingness to undertake training on carcass management

And I'm not suggesting that the above is not possible however why try and force a round peg through a square hole when the answer to the issue is sitting in front of us.

Feisar · 24-05-2021 02:35PM

At the end of the day there isn't a tradition of shooting in this country. We're seen as a bunch of skulking oddball poachers.

Bog Trotter99 · 24-05-2021 03:58PM

Feisar wrote: »

Your comment about "rich farmers" is baseless conjecture. Tax payers cash? Please point me in the direction of the grant that is going to pay for these 10 foot fences?

Please give a pest control service a call and see for yourself however I can tell you it is not.
I am sure the army have markspersons capable of the job however please advise on:

Insurance coverage
The Irish Army's interest/availability
Willingness to undertake training on carcass management

And I'm not suggesting that the above is not possible however why try and force a round peg through a square hole when the answer to the issue is sitting in front of us.

I see I understand your points now although I am not in agreement.

But you spoke of conservation measures that you do. What are these conservation measures?

Rows Grower · 24-05-2021 05:59PM

Feisar wrote: »

But it's the same people/society that you are telling to jog on that are putting through a lead ban. We are not in our own little bubble unfortunately.

Why would you presume I'm not in favour of a lead ban?

meathstevie · 24-05-2021 07:10PM

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Ok sir.

Why cant the land owner put up proper fencing to keep the deer out?

If the numbers get too big why can't a professional marksmen shoot the deer painlessly instead of you blood thirsty hunters with guns which shouldn't be allowed?

Ah lol, professional marksmen shooting deer painlessly ?

Next time I’m in the gun shop I’ll ask them for painless rifle ammo... .

Any decently placed shot from a high velocity full bore center fire rifle will have a deer at least unconscious if not dead on the ground before it can have possibly heard the shot.

You do realise that bar a select few zoo keepers and NPWS rangers “professional marksmen” are trained to shoot humans. And more importantly make a judgement call on when or when not to shoot humans.

Bog Trotter99 · 24-05-2021 07:37PM

I give up.

So basically in this topic of showing how shooting is beneficial to the countryside and informing the general public on what shooting does for conservation. We have shown in the answers given that.............

1. I don't have to justify to others what I do. I do not need to convert them to my lifestyle.

2. We can plant a few trees so a pheasant can live happily under a Holly bush.

3. Professional marksmen are trained to shoot humans.

Nobody except Feisar has any idea of what you are up against or can be bothered to put forward answers to promote your sport.

If that's what it is really like out there god help us all.

Feisar · 24-05-2021 08:46PM

Rows Grower wrote: »

Why would you presume I'm not in favour of a lead ban?

Apologies for my assumption.

tudderone · 24-05-2021 11:48PM

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Added to that you had people like Jack Hargreaves in the late 70's onwards making his short old way of living films for TV which was done on a tiny budget. Today his and other peoples stuff is big time viewing.

Jack was fantastic, used to love "Out of Town" when it was on back in the dim and distant.

tudderone · 24-05-2021 11:53PM

meathstevie wrote: »

Ah lol, professional marksmen shooting deer painlessly ?

Next time I’m in the gun shop I’ll ask them for painless rifle ammo... .

Any decently placed shot from a high velocity full bore center fire rifle will have a deer at least unconscious if not dead on the ground before it can have possibly heard the shot.

You do realise that bar a select few zoo keepers and NPWS rangers “professional marksmen” are trained to shoot humans. And more importantly make a judgement call on when or when not to shoot humans.

You seem to forget its not so much the fact deer or game birds or foxes get shot that piddles off the anti's, its the fact people enjoy doing it. They don't want to do it and think anyone who does is obviously a sadist or ill or something. I have seen the antis before saying what should be done is that army marksmen should be deployed to cull deer.

So Bogtrotter isn't far off the mark.

tudderone · 24-05-2021 11:59PM

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

No Grizzly............ I am a member of the public. My kids tell me about veganism every week because their teacher talks of nothing else.

I want to be convinced by your arguments that those nasty men with guns do more good than what I have been told.

Convince me!!!!

Short sweet examples and explanations.

My niece tells me the same, its either "green" issues, animal welfare/veganism/ we need a plant based diet etc, or blm/race/diversity etc. I notice on a lot of Dublin bus advertisements, falsehoods and half truths about the way dairy cows are treated, looked at one today that ran the full length of the bus and a website to visit if you want to go vegan

Grizzly 45 · 25-05-2021 12:15AM

Rows Grower wrote: »

Why should we have to prepare 5 points? In the real world anyone that asks me why do I hunt, shoot or fish I just tell them it's what I like to do.

I don't need to convert them to my choice of lifestyle, if they are interested in learning I'll help all I can but if it's a debate they are looking for or want to make me feel guilty in any way I just politely tell them jog on.

Do what you want and how you want to do it...I'm just giving an example of looking like you know what you are talking about without if you were hypothetically challenged by Richard 308s vegan teacher on this topic ..Rather than standing there saying "Nurrr..I like hunting me!"[Not you personally;)]
And the reason I make this point is again,the people who are supposed to be able to be representing us,cant actually do this coherently in a debate or media interview.

Bog Trotter99 · 25-05-2021 12:21AM

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Do what you want and how you want to do it...I'm just giving an example of looking like you know what you are talking about without if you were hypothetically challenged by Richard 308s vegan teacher on this topic ..Rather than standing there saying "Nurrr..I like hunting me!"[Not you personally;)]
And the reason I make this point is again,the people who are supposed to be able to be representing us,cant actually do this coherently in a debate or media interview.

I think more the point Grizzly is nobody wants to even try.

Grizzly 45 · 25-05-2021 12:47AM

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

No Grizzly............ I am a member of the public. My kids tell me about veganism every week because their teacher talks of nothing else.

I want to be convinced by your arguments that those nasty men with guns do more good than what I have been told.

Convince me!!!!

Short sweet examples and explanations.

Why anyone is allowing their kids to be indoctrinated by teachers spouting their lifestyle choice is beyond me...But maybe that's a parents fault for not speaking up? Dunno as I don't have any kids,but I wouldn't be letting their heads be filed with that sht
Anyhoo...

1] Ethics [2] conservation [3] lifestyle choice [4]balance of nature [5] The killing is the least of it.
Now a bright lad like you should be able to make some argument points on those 5? Cmon man!:D

ILoveYourVibes · 25-05-2021 12:56AM

Hi.

Im not personally into hunting.

But my advice is don't try and change the hearts and minds of people.

I think you can't really do so on an issue like this.

But what you can do is keep your dignity and always treat people with respect.

It might not change people's minds on the issue but it WILL change people's attitudes towards the people who choose to hunt and make it a part of their lives.

I also think that informing people and educating people is a good idea.

Appeal more to the mind than the heart.

I would also suggest that you respect that some people just have a diff opinion and don't rub the activity in their faces so to speak.

Why anyone is allowing their kids to be indoctrinated by teachers spouting their lifestyle choice is beyond me...But maybe that's a parents fault for not speaking up? Dunno as I don't have any kids,but I wouldn't be letting their heads be filed with that sht
Anyhoo...

This is the type of attitude I would not take. Them vrs us.

Teachers by the way are over worked and underpaid and I think after the recent pandemic more people are starting to appreciate what they do.

Personally I don't think you should try to change people's minds. But represent yourselves with dignity and respect.

Treat those who think differently to you with that same empathy and respect. Avoid hyperbole.

Honestly the way you carry yourself wins over more people than anything.

Grizzly 45 · 25-05-2021 12:57AM

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

But dont all these rich farmers with their new 4x4's get grants for this? It's tax payers cash and I have heard of farmers down our way who get hundreds of thousands in grants.

Is it not under pest control and dont the army have marksmen who can do this job?

Oh dear...The "rich farmers" and the grant harvests days are long gone...The Polish and other East blockers have them now, and actually do things with them to improve their former Soviet collective farms. Nor do you get rich in farming,at least not down on the 24/7/365 sht shovelling level where 98% of farmers are.:rolleyes:

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Winning Hearts and Minds

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