Winning Hearts and Minds

Bog Trotter99

I give up.

So basically in this topic of showing how shooting is beneficial to the countryside and informing the general public on what shooting does for conservation. We have shown in the answers given that.............

1. I don't have to justify to others what I do. I do not need to convert them to my lifestyle.

2. We can plant a few trees so a pheasant can live happily under a Holly bush.

3. Professional marksmen are trained to shoot humans.

Nobody except Feisar has any idea of what you are up against or can be bothered to put forward answers to promote your sport.

If that's what it is really like out there god help us all.

Feisar

Rows Grower wrote: »

Why would you presume I'm not in favour of a lead ban?

Apologies for my assumption.

tudderone

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Added to that you had people like Jack Hargreaves in the late 70's onwards making his short old way of living films for TV which was done on a tiny budget. Today his and other peoples stuff is big time viewing.

Jack was fantastic, used to love "Out of Town" when it was on back in the dim and distant.

tudderone

meathstevie wrote: »

Ah lol, professional marksmen shooting deer painlessly ?

Next time I’m in the gun shop I’ll ask them for painless rifle ammo... .

Any decently placed shot from a high velocity full bore center fire rifle will have a deer at least unconscious if not dead on the ground before it can have possibly heard the shot.

You do realise that bar a select few zoo keepers and NPWS rangers “professional marksmen” are trained to shoot humans. And more importantly make a judgement call on when or when not to shoot humans.

You seem to forget its not so much the fact deer or game birds or foxes get shot that piddles off the anti's, its the fact people enjoy doing it. They don't want to do it and think anyone who does is obviously a sadist or ill or something. I have seen the antis before saying what should be done is that army marksmen should be deployed to cull deer.

So Bogtrotter isn't far off the mark.

tudderone

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

No Grizzly............ I am a member of the public. My kids tell me about veganism every week because their teacher talks of nothing else.

I want to be convinced by your arguments that those nasty men with guns do more good than what I have been told.

Convince me!!!!

Short sweet examples and explanations.

My niece tells me the same, its either "green" issues, animal welfare/veganism/ we need a plant based diet etc, or blm/race/diversity etc. I notice on a lot of Dublin bus advertisements, falsehoods and half truths about the way dairy cows are treated, looked at one today that ran the full length of the bus and a website to visit if you want to go vegan

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

Why should we have to prepare 5 points? In the real world anyone that asks me why do I hunt, shoot or fish I just tell them it's what I like to do.

I don't need to convert them to my choice of lifestyle, if they are interested in learning I'll help all I can but if it's a debate they are looking for or want to make me feel guilty in any way I just politely tell them jog on.

Do what you want and how you want to do it...I'm just giving an example of looking like you know what you are talking about without if you were hypothetically challenged by Richard 308s vegan teacher on this topic ..Rather than standing there saying "Nurrr..I like hunting me!"[Not you personally;)]
And the reason I make this point is again,the people who are supposed to be able to be representing us,cant actually do this coherently in a debate or media interview.

Bog Trotter99

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Do what you want and how you want to do it...I'm just giving an example of looking like you know what you are talking about without if you were hypothetically challenged by Richard 308s vegan teacher on this topic ..Rather than standing there saying "Nurrr..I like hunting me!"[Not you personally;)]
And the reason I make this point is again,the people who are supposed to be able to be representing us,cant actually do this coherently in a debate or media interview.

I think more the point Grizzly is nobody wants to even try.

Grizzly 45

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

No Grizzly............ I am a member of the public. My kids tell me about veganism every week because their teacher talks of nothing else.

I want to be convinced by your arguments that those nasty men with guns do more good than what I have been told.

Convince me!!!!

Short sweet examples and explanations.

Why anyone is allowing their kids to be indoctrinated by teachers spouting their lifestyle choice is beyond me...But maybe that's a parents fault for not speaking up? Dunno as I don't have any kids,but I wouldn't be letting their heads be filed with that sht
Anyhoo...

1] Ethics [2] conservation [3] lifestyle choice [4]balance of nature [5] The killing is the least of it.
Now a bright lad like you should be able to make some argument points on those 5? Cmon man!:D

ILoveYourVibes

Hi.

Im not personally into hunting.

But my advice is don't try and change the hearts and minds of people.

I think you can't really do so on an issue like this.

But what you can do is keep your dignity and always treat people with respect.

It might not change people's minds on the issue but it WILL change people's attitudes towards the people who choose to hunt and make it a part of their lives.

I also think that informing people and educating people is a good idea.

Appeal more to the mind than the heart.

I would also suggest that you respect that some people just have a diff opinion and don't rub the activity in their faces so to speak.

Why anyone is allowing their kids to be indoctrinated by teachers spouting their lifestyle choice is beyond me...But maybe that's a parents fault for not speaking up? Dunno as I don't have any kids,but I wouldn't be letting their heads be filed with that sht
Anyhoo...

This is the type of attitude I would not take. Them vrs us.

Teachers by the way are over worked and underpaid and I think after the recent pandemic more people are starting to appreciate what they do.

Personally I don't think you should try to change people's minds. But represent yourselves with dignity and respect.

Treat those who think differently to you with that same empathy and respect. Avoid hyperbole.

Honestly the way you carry yourself wins over more people than anything.

Grizzly 45

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

But dont all these rich farmers with their new 4x4's get grants for this? It's tax payers cash and I have heard of farmers down our way who get hundreds of thousands in grants.

Is it not under pest control and dont the army have marksmen who can do this job?

Oh dear...The "rich farmers" and the grant harvests days are long gone...The Polish and other East blockers have them now, and actually do things with them to improve their former Soviet collective farms. Nor do you get rich in farming,at least not down on the 24/7/365 sht shovelling level where 98% of farmers are.:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Feisar wrote: »

At the end of the day there isn't a tradition of shooting in this country. We're seen as a bunch of skulking oddball poachers.

Thats because we won't come out of the closet, simply put. Why is it that anywhere else in Europe hunters are tolerated if not downright respected, and not seen as an elitist sport, but as an actual vital part of the countryside?:eek:

Bog Trotter99

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Why anyone is allowing their kids to be indoctrinated by teachers spouting their lifestyle choice is beyond me...But maybe that's a parents fault for not speaking up? Dunno as I don't have any kids,but I wouldn't be letting their heads be filed with that sht
Anyhoo...

1] Ethics [2] conservation [3] lifestyle choice [4]balance of nature [5] The killing is the least of it.
Now a bright lad like you should be able to make some argument points on those 5? Cmon man!:D

Why do we need to hunt animals for food? Surely the supermarkets have lots of food and they dont have to go around killing animals do they?

We pay our taxes for conservation. We dont need hunters planting trees and flowers, putting up signs and stopping us public walking through farmers land.

We all used smoke which was a lifestyle choice and it is now socially unacceptable just the same as hunting and soon eating meat.

How can it be right to kill a fox to protect a bird that you want to shoot?

Animals dont need to be killed today for meat because supermarkets grow it in the labs and haven't you ever heard of veggie burgers? We dont eat meat in our house, we only eat sausage and fish fingers.



Common beliefs.

Bog Trotter99

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Oh dear...The "rich farmers" and the grant harvests days are long gone...The Polish and other East blockers have them now, and actually do things with them to improve their former Soviet collective farms. Nor do you get rich in farming,at least not down on the 24/7/365 sht shovelling level where 98% of farmers are.:rolleyes:

Sure Mr O'Malley the farmer by us has a brand new 4 x 4 every 2 years when we can only afford a VW Polo. If there's no money in farming he must be getting grants. Them 4 x 4's are 50 grand you know.



Envy.

Bog Trotter99

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Hi.

Im not personally into hunting.

But my advice is don't try and change the hearts and minds of people.

I think you can't really do so on an issue like this.

But what you can do is keep your dignity and always treat people with respect.

It might not change people's minds on the issue but it WILL change people's attitudes towards the people who choose to hunt and make it a part of their lives.

I also think that informing people and educating people is a good idea.

Appeal more to the mind than the heart.

I would also suggest that you respect that some people just have a diff opinion and don't rub the activity in their faces so to speak.



This is the type of attitude I would not take. Them vrs us.

Teachers by the way are over worked and underpaid and I think after the recent pandemic more people are starting to appreciate what they do.

Personally I don't think you should try to change people's minds. But represent yourselves with dignity and respect.

Treat those who think differently to you with that same empathy and respect. Avoid hyperbole.

Honestly the way you carry yourself wins over more people than anything.

I think what you say makes sense but even so there 'is' now in places a push to educate children a certain way.

There is also a lot of propaganda on different topics and a concerted effort to label objectors as something socially unacceptable.

It strays over into politics and this is a shooting forum so really not the place.

ILoveYourVibes

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

I think what you say makes sense but even so there 'is' now in places a push to educate children a certain way.

There is also a lot of propaganda on different topics and a concerted effort to label objectors as something socially unacceptable.

It strays over into politics and this is a shooting forum so really not the place.

There is.

But I wouldn't become overly paranoid about it. It makes you look objectionable in general.

Providing facts in a polite non bitter tone is what i would advise you to do.

Yes its a shooting forum. But i am just giving you my opinion on the topic. I guess hunting is a very closed community not really open to non hunters. Which is maybe why you have the public image issue too really.

Saying im not into hunting etc. Isn't the same as saying i think the people who do it are bad. I know hunters can be very good kind people. But i also know your public image is not good. And portraying yourselves as these anti vegan teacher types who see yourselves up against society ..is NOT the way to win hearts and minds.

It might be how you feel. But its not the way to communicate the BEST of your activity to people.

Im sure hunters do a lot for conservation and nature. I am sure you respect people in your community. So just focus on that.

I'm not a hunter but I'm not against RESPONSIBLE hunting. I am sure most people on this forum would be the same. (except they hunt of course)

Opening up and letting people learn about what you do is a good idea.

As regards education of young kids ....well education should not be with an aim to push any agenda. It should be neutral. Ideally both sides should fear well educated kids equally

Grizzly 45

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Hi.

I

m not personally into hunting.

Fine and no problem there.

But my advice is don't try and change the hearts and minds of people

.

I think you can't really do so on an issue like this.

But what you can do is keep your dignity and always treat people with respect.

We wish that was reciprocated:rolleyes:


.

Appeal more to the mind than the heart.

Unfortunately ,most use the heart to rule on everything and don't want to use the head these days.

I would also suggest that you respect that some people just have a diff opinion and don't rub the activity in their faces so to speak.

Yeah well, maybe then militant vegans and antis could try the same courtesy and tactics? When was the last poster you saw that said Hunting is good for you?" Or when did we have the last "go carnivore" month? maybe we don't want plant-eaters being in our faces either and just wish to be left alone...So to speak?

This is the type of attitude I would not take. Them vrs us.

It already exists and isn't going to go away.

Teachers by the way are overworked and underpaid and I think after the recent pandemic more people are starting to appreciate what they do.

AAAAAAWWWWWWW!!!!
I think a whole lot of parents would disagree very much with your statement on that one! ESP after last year:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
And anyway, keep your politics and ideals out of children's heads thanks very much.They are supposed to be educated not indoctrinated .


I see where you are coming from,but its somewhat naive a viewpoint. Us hunters don't go around burning down peoples property in the name of "hunters liberation" or intimidate people to "eat meat or die" ,or send people who we don't agree with AIDS-infected hypodermic needles in letters,or make out that vegans are child molesters or potential mass murderers.Or bring terrorist bomb makers from Northern Ireland to instruct at animal lib meets,which happened in Dublin in the 1990s

So let's just say us "keeping our dignity and cool and being rational" is a 2nd nature to us hunters.We just want to make the point that its not about just killing.

Bog Trotter99

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

There is.

But I wouldn't become overly paranoid about it. It makes you look objectionable in general.

Providing facts in a polite non bitter tone is what i would advise you to do.

Yes its a shooting forum. But i am just giving you my opinion on the topic. I guess hunting is a very closed community not really open to non hunters. Which is maybe why you have the public image issue too really.

Saying im not into hunting etc. Isn't the same as saying i think the people who do it are bad. I know hunters can be very good kind people. But i also know your public image is not good. And portraying yourselves as these anti vegan teacher q anon types who see yourselves up against society ..is NOT the way to win hearts and minds.

It might be how you feel. But its not the way to communicate the BEST of your activity to people.

Im sure hunters do a lot for conservation and nature. I am sure you respect people in your community. So just focus on that.

Well regards straying into politics I think the Mods may object to that.

But on your other points I liken it to where people see something going on and just shake their heads in despair that it has happened. Nobody really says much at the time because they do not want to make a scene or get heavily involved.

But then those people with the agenda see silence as weakness and a free pass to carry on their activities..........and so they continue and step it up a little each time.

An example is people with an agenda closing down meat selling businesses recently in the news. Nobody said much the first day so they continued.

Grizzly 45

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

W

Common beliefs.

Dissociation of reality as to what nature is and where your foodstuff comes from. Isnt it amazing that the tasty hog or cow magically disassembles itself into its component parts and magically is wrapped in clingfilm to appear on the supermarket shelves?:rolleyes:

ILoveYourVibes

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Well regards straying into politics I think the Mods may object to that.

But on your other points I liken it to where people see something going on and just shake their heads in despair that it has happened. Nobody really says much at the time because they do not want to make a scene or get heavily involved.

But then those people with the agenda see silence as weakness and a free pass to carry on their activities..........and so they continue and step it up a little each time.

An example is people with an agenda closing down meat selling businesses recently in the news. Nobody said much the first day so they continued.

The hunting community in Ireland is quite small though.

Most people don't care.

I don't think a lot of businesses selling meat etc would necessarily like to equate that to hunting for sport or for people to infer from their businesses that they do hold a position on hunting.

Yeah well, maybe then militant vegans and antis could try the same courtesy and tactics?

Well I know some who are polite. I even know some who have hunters as friends. I don't like this narrative where people are on teams etc. Its far from the truth. I bet you all know some vegans or vegetarians. I bet you have kids who are veggies etc or partners.

I think you can't really do so on an issue like this.

If i were to try and convince you to not hunt by appealing to your heart how would you react?

Your position might become MORE entrenched.

And i mean why should I? You have a right to think how you think.

Maybe you are right to hunt and I am wrong not to. I don't know why we think and feel so differently?

I DO think that people who are part of these movements on veganism ...are not as educated on things as they think though. Its a type of intellectual arrogance. Which is why i focus on facts and educating rather than trying to win an argument.

Farmers know a lot more about animal welfare than 100% of animal welfare rights activists. So much so ..its actually sometimes dangerous.

The seaspiracy thing etc ...a lot of it is ...either very misunderstood or lying.

The movement is a business in itself. I don't want to denigrate the individuals involved many of whom i know believe they are right. But there is a lot of misinformation.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I bet you have kids who are veggies etc or partners.



.

Yes that is right ...i said that ..i am sure you have children who are carrots. :pac::o

Bog Trotter99

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

The hunting community in Ireland is quite small though.

Most people don't care.

Very true. People only care about what affects them. Any other issues they just want to go away and the quickest, simplest is best.

I don't think a lot of businesses selling meat etc would necessarily like to equate that to hunting for sport or for people to infer from their businesses that they do hold a position on hunting.

Yes but today these businesses are also under attack from same people

If i were to try and convince you to not hunt by appealing to your heart how would you react?

I would be very interested in your arguments. I do not hunt anymore. I do take part in pest control which is essential for livestock and vegetable/cereal farming. I wish there was another way. But there isnt and some of the alternatives are horrific to those pest animals.

And i mean why should I? You have a right to think how you think.

That's not the agenda being pushed at present. 'You either think and do as we say otherwise you will be villified'......is the agenda.

I DO think that people who are part of these movements on veganism ...are not as educated on things as they think though.

They are targeted as young as possible by those with the agenda. It's not just vegetarism/veganism. There is a whole movement set up to spread misinformation which has got so powerful that unless you think like them you will not even work at places they control.

Farmers know a lot more about animal welfare than 100% of animal welfare rights activists. So much so ..its actually sometimes dangerous.

This is totally correct. Also most farmers are in the retirement age group in most western countries with no young-uns to replace them. This means that very soon there will be no western farmers and it isnt the kind of thing you can learn in a short time course. So this means your staple food will become more relient on outside forces/countries and what they desire.

The movement is a business in itself. I don't want to denigrate the individuals involved many of whom i know believe they are right. But there is a lot of misinformation.

The latest campaign from a once respected group on wearing wool being murder is a classic example of how every these people have infiltrated to spread misinformation.

Feisar

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Hi.

Im not personally into hunting.

But my advice is don't try and change the hearts and minds of people.

I think you can't really do so on an issue like this.

But what you can do is keep your dignity and always treat people with respect.

It might not change people's minds on the issue but it WILL change people's attitudes towards the people who choose to hunt and make it a part of their lives.

I also think that informing people and educating people is a good idea.

Appeal more to the mind than the heart.

I would also suggest that you respect that some people just have a diff opinion and don't rub the activity in their faces so to speak.



This is the type of attitude I would not take. Them vrs us.

Teachers by the way are over worked and underpaid and I think after the recent pandemic more people are starting to appreciate what they do.

Personally I don't think you should try to change people's minds. But represent yourselves with dignity and respect.

Treat those who think differently to you with that same empathy and respect. Avoid hyperbole.

Honestly the way you carry yourself wins over more people than anything.

How did you land over here!

Bog Trotter99

Feisar wrote: »

How did you land over here!

Maybe 'latest posts' section?

Feisar

For the craic we should ring up Dublin Bus about a country sports ad campaign and see how far we get. "Not aligned with company ethos" or some such reply would be received I'm sure, why is one lifestyle choice OK and another not?

In a time and a place in the world where there is a growing push for less/no meat, buying it in a packet is one thing but going out and killing it oneself, that's a hard sell.

Feisar

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Maybe 'latest posts' section?

That has found me on some funny threads.

Grizzly 45

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

The hunting community in Ireland is quite small though.

Bigger than the anti crowd by a few hundred thousand. The antis are about 100 hardcore who interchange their memberships or hire in mercenaries from the UK to try and boost their numbers for demos.

Most people don't care.

Funnily enough,with COVID people are starting to take an interest in where their food comes from and how the countryside works.Also, going by trends,women are starting to take up hunting a lot too,as many of them are getting concerns about where their food is coming from or how it is produced.

Well I know some who are polite. I even know some who have hunters as friends. I don't like this narrative where people are on teams etc. Its far from the truth. I bet you all know some vegans or vegetarians. I bet you have kids who are veggies etc or partners.

A lot of parents would agree their offspring are vegetables these days.Stuck on screens.:D Yeah We do all know them...As they never STFU about telling us that they are such,and wear it as some sort of superior moral or virtue signalling badge.:rolleyes: Too much religious cult behaviour in some of these people.I know one and with her hardcore veganism,she lost both her kids and her husband in a divorce as they are all dedicated omnivores who got sick of her preaching and ,probably cooking.:pac:

If i were to try and convince you to not hunt by appealing to your heart how would you react?

Give me a few good reasons why I would change my LIFESTYLE CHOICE, not my hobby...There is a clue there.

Your position might become MORE entrenched.
And i mean why should I? You have a right to think how you think.

You keep making this mistake that we are out to convert the veggies to become carnivores. We are not,and never have been.All we want to do is be able to put our view across on an equal footing in society and media as the antis,and really be left the Hell alone to continue.
Put it like this; you can be assured NOT ONE of us could have this kind of discussion on a vegan or anti-hunting board, without being abused, threatened or outright block and banning.
Yet here you are being engaged with in a civilised manner and discussion by the "blood morons"and "Gun fetishists with small penises":D:D

Maybe you are right to hunt and I am wrong not to. I don't know why we think and feel so differently?

How you were raised, your environment, your thought process,your emotional level, incidents in your life. Various things that make you want to hunt and eat meat or not.Not every one is the same and in the end its your personal choice.

I DO think that people who are part of these movements on veganism ...are not as educated on things as they think though. Its a type of intellectual arrogance. Which is why i focus on facts and educating rather than trying to win an argument.

THAT^ is a fact. Intellectual arrogance is the worst kind of stupidity.

Farmers know a lot more about animal welfare than 100% of animal welfare rights activists. So much so ..its actually sometimes dangerous.

Esp with those who don't want to learn,or might have their beliefs challenged

The movement is a business in itself. I don't want to denigrate the individuals involved many of whom i know believe they are right. But there is a lot of misinformation.

Yup going by PETAS healthy annual balance sheet,its big money in a multi trillion PA industry of" environmentalism"

dto001

Got a bit more political than I thought it would 😂 but it’s a good debate all the same. I’m going to copy an ad I heard today and get a tub of game crop put it in smaller packs with the gun club name on it and ask the local shop to let people take them for free. See how that works to start in fact I think every club should do something like that.
Next spring I’m thinking of getting some bird books & boxes for the local schools. Along with releasing some pheasants with them.
And I’ll probably ask the same question again next year😂😂

meathstevie

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Why do we need to hunt animals for food? Surely the supermarkets have lots of food and they dont have to go around killing animals do they?

We pay our taxes for conservation. We dont need hunters planting trees and flowers, putting up signs and stopping us public walking through farmers land.

We all used smoke which was a lifestyle choice and it is now socially unacceptable just the same as hunting and soon eating meat.

How can it be right to kill a fox to protect a bird that you want to shoot?

Animals dont need to be killed today for meat because supermarkets grow it in the labs and haven't you ever heard of veggie burgers? We dont eat meat in our house, we only eat sausage and fish fingers.



Common beliefs.

Very true but is there any point in for example trying to explain that knowledgeable professional conservationists involved in reintroducing rare ground nesting birds call in local hunters to cull corvids and foxes to give the broods a chance.

Or that hunting and trapping is a viable form of pest control that doesn’t involve the use of poisons and subsequent secondary poisoning of endangered predators ?

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

V

ery true but is there any point in for example trying to explain that knowledgeable professional conservationists involved in reintroducing rare ground nesting birds call in local hunters to cull corvids and foxes to give the broods a chance.

"Shure haven't we professional army snipers to do that if need be?":rolleyes:

tudderone

Spotted a thing on twatter, i don't go on there usually, i think its a sewer like most social media. But someone sent me a link to something else. Its called the country food trust, it seems they process game into pouches of curry, casserole and that type of thing and send it to foodbanks and the homeless.

Rather than being seen as a group of posh tweedies in range rovers, giving something back to people on the bottom rung could be a good idea.


https://www.thecountryfoodtrust.org

Bog Trotter99

tudderone wrote: »

Spotted a thing on twatter, i don't go on there usually, i think its a sewer like most social media. But someone sent me a link to something else. Its called the country food trust, it seems they process game into pouches of curry, casserole and that type of thing and send it to foodbanks and the homeless.

Rather than being seen as a group of posh tweedies in range rovers, giving something back to people on the bottom rung could be a good idea.


https://www.thecountryfoodtrust.org

Thats in the UK where they do things. Here in Ireland they find away 'not' to do something. This thread is an example.

Still it is a very good idea.

An even better one here is to give your prepared game away to oldies and others if they want it. Openly and publicly and through an organization so it gets noticed and documented.

A way to win hearts and minds?

Grizzly 45

[QUOTE=Bog Trotter99;117279696

An even better one here is to give your prepared game away to oldies and others if they want it. Openly and publicly and through an organization so it gets noticed and documented.
A way to win hearts and minds?[/QUOTE]


UntilJohnny Jobsworth Bureaucrat from the food safety authority dept gets involved:rolleyes:
They'll nail you for "illegal food processing under the food safety act" The moment you "prepare" game.IE take it out of its skin or feathers.Its considered food processing and you need then to have a full food processing setup with all that entails.:(

However, from what I can see there would be nothing they could do if you "donated" a carcass to say a charitable soup kitchen and they processed the carcass themselves to consume on the premises.

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

UntilJohnny Jobsworth Bureaucrat from the food safety authority dept gets involved:rolleyes:
They'll nail you for "illegal food processing under the food safety act" The moment you "prepare" game.IE take it out of its skin or feathers.Its considered food processing and you need then to have a full food processing setup with all that entails.:(

However, from what I can see there would be nothing they could do if you "donated" a carcass to say a charitable soup kitchen and they processed the carcass themselves to consume on the premises.

"Excuse me sir can i see your game dealers licence" :rolleyes:

Feisar

Was it Pieta that refused money from some gun club here?

I may not have that right but some charity refused money, maybe it came from greyhound racing?

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

UntilJohnny Jobsworth Bureaucrat from the food safety authority dept gets involved:rolleyes:
They'll nail you for "illegal food processing under the food safety act" The moment you "prepare" game.IE take it out of its skin or feathers.Its considered food processing and you need then to have a full food processing setup with all that entails.:(

However, from what I can see there would be nothing they could do if you "donated" a carcass to say a charitable soup kitchen and they processed the carcass themselves to consume on the premises.

I didn't think there was a law against giving oven ready venison to friends in Ireland. Is there?

tudderone

Feisar wrote: »

Was it Pieta that refused money from some gun club here?

I may not have that right but some charity refused money, maybe it came from greyhound racing?

Most of those charities are a racket anyway, only 5% of the money has to actually go to save the children or the whales or whatever. Seen it recently in one of the papers, a large donation was used to pay staff christmas bonuses.

Feisar

tudderone wrote: »

Most of those charities are a racket anyway, only 5% of the money has to actually go to save the children or the whales or whatever. Seen it recently in one of the papers, a large donation was used to pay staff christmas bonuses.

To be honest if we were getting good press and some good coverage they could use it on coke and hookers for all I cared but then I'm an "the end justifies the means" sort.

wirehairmax

One charity that wont refuse contributions is Bumbleance. The founder and CEO is Tony Heffernan, who I believe is a hunter and deer stalker. The Irish Deer Commission recently ran a couple of online events including an auction and donations and contributions went to Bumbleance. So if anyone wants to support a charity, there you go.

Grizzly 45

Feisar wrote: »

Was it Pieta that refused money from some gun club here?

I may not have that right but some charity refused money, maybe it came from greyhound racing?

Irish cancer society refused[pressured more like] a donation from a fox hunting pack 2 years ago.

meathstevie

Rows Grower wrote: »

I didn't think there was a law against giving oven ready venison to friends in Ireland. Is there?

You’re quite right, a game dealers licence only comes into play when game meat is sold. You can give any amount of it away without any obligation but the moment money changes it’s a different story.


If you as a hunter sell a carcass to someone one of the parties needs to be a licenced game dealer. It could be you if you have the proper setup and paperwork or the buyer.

In the case of butchers, supermarkets and restaurants the meat at some stage has to have passed through the hands of a game dealer. A restaurant could for example buy a deer carcass from a game dealer for the chef to break down and use.

cookimonster

Even food given to charities for free comes under the food safety act as does food given out by charitable organisations. The local foot ball club supplying sambos or a pot of home made curry for league matchs can run a foul of the FSAI.

Rows Grower

cookimonster wrote: »

Even food given to charities for free comes under the food safety act as does food given out by charitable organisations. The local foot ball club supplying sambos or a pot of home made curry for league matchs can run a foul of the FSAI.

I'd say it could run a foul on more than the FSAI.

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

I didn't think there was a law against giving oven ready venison to friends in Ireland. Is there?

So long as they are friends and nothing else .Go right ahead.

But donating it to a 3rd party could be on dodgy ground going by the writing
in 4.1 to 4.3 of the guidance of FSAI.It doesn't mention it specifically this situation of donating the meat to a charity org or the like. But I wouldn't like to be the one to be the test case.

Bog Trotter99

There will come a time where nobody will be able to do anything without breaking some law.

This is what happens when you have moaning minnies who just want to find fault with everything.

If someone was having a heart attack in the street, I would be honestly worried about helping them in case I did some wrong thing and either got arrested or sued. I think I would wait for the 'professionals' to arrive. In these parts it would be far too late.

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

You’re quite right, a game dealers licence only comes into play when game meat is sold. You can give any amount of it away without any obligation but the moment money changes it’s a different story.


If you as a hunter sell a carcass to someone one of the parties needs to be a licenced game dealer. It could be you if you have the proper setup and paperwork or the buyer.

In the case of butchers, supermarkets and restaurants the meat at some stage has to have passed through the hands of a game dealer. A restaurant could for example buy a deer carcass from a game dealer for the chef to break down and use.

You'd wonder is that the actual case?As it quite clearly says in the guidelines that as a hunter you can sell "small amounts " of game to butchers and restaurants.

4.2 Hunter Exemption for the Supply of Small Quantities of Primary Products
European food law makes provision for the scenario where small quantities of wild game primary products, e.g. in the fur or in the feather eviscerated, or non-eviscerated wild game bodies, may be supplied either direct to the final consumer or to local retail establishments, e.g. a retail butcher or restaurant who directly supply the final consumer.

A hunter supplying in such a manner is exempt from Regulation (EC) No 852/2004 which sets general hygiene rules applying to all food businesses; and Regulation (EC) No 853/2004 which sets additional hygiene rules applying to businesses producing food of animal origin but must comply with the requirements of Regulation (EC) No 178/2002 such as the obligation to produce safe food and have a traceability system in place.

It is important to note that a hunter invoking this exemption but also supplying game meat other than primary product would have to comply with, at a very minimum, the requirements of Regulation (EC) No 852/2004 involving among other things: registration, general hygiene requirements, including appropriate storage and would be required to have a food safety management system in place.
The term ‘small quantities’ has not been defined in Irish legislation.
It would be expected that the demand for ‘in-fur’ or ‘in-feather’ wild game bodies, in such small quantities from either local consumers or local retailers, would be very limited.

The exemption is described in this section merely for completeness and to raise awareness of its existence.
FOOD SAFETY AUTHORITY OF IRELAND

THEN

Hunters Supplying Game
into the Food Chain
5.1 General
The hunter is permitted to do no more than the necessary preparation that is part of normal hunting practice before supplying the game into the food chain. Such preparation may be done ‘in the field’ or in a ‘game larder’.
This necessary preparation includes killing and where appropriate, bleeding and the removal of stomach and intestines (‘the green offal’).
For trained hunters (trained person), this preparation will also involve the removal of the heart, lungs and associated tissues and the head, as part of the examination of the live wild animal, wild game body and viscera for abnormal behaviour characteristics or suspicions of environmental contamination (please see Section 5.5 Hunter Training for further information on this).
If good hunting practices are observed, the stomach, intestines and other body parts of wild game may be disposed of safely on the site of hunting unless circumstances dictate that these parts must accompany the wild game body to the approved game handling establishment.

Except in the case of private domestic consumption, any further processing (such as skinning, plucking, cutting) of the wild game must be performed in an approved game handling establishment.

My take on this...
you can sell "small amounts" [whatever that is defined as]of the game to a butcher, restaurant etc. So long as it is gutted but still a complete carcass and in its fur or feathers. That's sOP all across the EU..But if you start breaking it down or skinning/plucking the game. Then it is considered a food processing affair.
So we seem to have a clash of the legislation here with this, which is EU legislation and the Game dealer act here in national law? So which one is it at the end of the day?

Grizzly 45

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

There will come a time where nobody will be able to do anything without breaking some law.

If someone was having a heart attack in the street, I would be honestly worried about helping them in case I did some wrong thing and either got arrested or sued. I think I would wait for the 'professionals' to arrive. In these parts it would be far too late.

Nah, you are safe on that one...There is a Good Samaritan act that exonerates you in cases like this here. Was on another thread here about what folks carry in their medic kits a couple of weeks ago.

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So long as they are friends and nothing else .Go right ahead.

But donating it to a 3rd party could be on dodgy ground going by the writing
in 4.1 to 4.3 of the guidance of FSAI.It doesn't mention it specifically this situation of donating the meat to a charity org or the like. But I wouldn't like to be the one to be the test case.

Thanks for the go ahead.

I think.

What does the clause "and nothing else" cover?

Does it differentiate between friends and family, neighbours, work mates, hungry people you know, people you know that just appreciate a nicely prepared piece of wild venison?

tudderone

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

There will come a time where nobody will be able to do anything without breaking some law.

This is what happens when you have moaning minnies who just want to find fault with everything.

If someone was having a heart attack in the street, I would be honestly worried about helping them in case I did some wrong thing and either got arrested or sued. I think I would wait for the 'professionals' to arrive. In these parts it would be far too late.

Its an industry in itself, 'elf an safety. I have been in places where there were as many h&s clipboard carriers as there were workers.

JP22

tudderone wrote: »

Its an industry in itself, 'elf an safety. I have been in places where there were as many h&s clipboard carriers as there were workers.

Retired but as an ex H&S Practitioner/Risk Management (Chartered member of IOSH), I agree with you but at the same time I respectively disagree.

We all need H&S, Risk Management, Food Safety etc., in the workplace but I admit some industries are definitely over-kill when it comes to safety in general, maybe they were caught/fined/in court etc.

All aspects of H&S when applied correctly should not stop or hinder a business or a particular job from taking place. Saying a job cannot be done because it’s too dangerous is a bucket load of you know what.

Just look at some Military jobs, dangerous is not the word yet they are completed daily in a safe manner. You must have all your ducks in a row, or in military parlance, all your P’ssssss in place (proper planning & preparation, prevents pi**, poor performance.

Just my tuppence worth.

tudderone

JP22 wrote: »

Retired but as an ex H&S Practitioner/Risk Management (Chartered member of IOSH), I agree with you but at the same time I respectively disagree.

We all need H&S, Risk Management, Food Safety etc., in the workplace but I admit some industries are definitely over-kill when it comes to safety in general, maybe they were caught/fined/in court etc.

All aspects of H&S when applied correctly should not stop or hinder a business or a particular job from taking place. Saying a job cannot be done because it’s too dangerous is a bucket load of you know what.

Just look at some Military jobs, dangerous is not the word yet they are completed daily in a safe manner. You must have all your ducks in a row, or in military parlance, all your P’ssssss in place (proper planning & preparation, prevents pi**, poor performance.

Just my tuppence worth.

I was working with a contractor in Cadburys chocolate factory years ago and it was farcical. You had the health and safety mafia going around and then the shop stewards trying to trip you up. Its no wonder the Chinese are eating western businesses for breakfast.