Winning Hearts and Minds

dto001

MOD NOTE

Editing OP orginal post to start a new post as per title

Grizzly 45

Win hearts and minds by finding something in the community that improves the wildlife habitat in general and looks like a community benefit win.

IE maybe if you have it an old pond in the area that's near a walkway. Clean and renovate it, so it becomes attractive to wildfowl and as an amenity. If your shooting ground is near it you will have a flight route during the season.

There is no hard and fast rule to something like this. It's dependent on your situation and circumstances.

But doing stuff like that with a physical result impresses more than some old crazy cat lady sitting behind her screen squawking about the cruel hunters massacring Bambi...

Rosahane

I haven't been there but Rathcormac GC have a big media presence with their website and the webcam for the Barn Owls. They also have a nature reserve linked into a walk. It all looks great and very positive!

https://rathcormacgameandwildlifeclub.ie

dto001

Richard308 wrote: »

I was thinking about this myself and am thinking the next time we are buying birds we will try and get the local primary school to help, ie feeding, releasing etc. I think hunters often sell themselves short in what we put back into the environment. It might help foster positive relations between generations and our sport.

We did that last year and the kids loved it but this year we couldn’t. Probably do it again next year. But we didn’t put it up on the Facebook page as I’m not sure what’s allowed.

Bog Trotter99

S'cuse me fellas but you aren't going to convince the lefty lectured young un's of today who are taught that wearing wool is murder, that killing a few fluffy cuddly fox's is good for the environment.

More like things have got so bad that farming and conservation needs to get together to put their case across to a totally ignorant public who think that meat comes from a supermarket.

Eddie B

You need to look for "Whats Fashionable" in today's world. Planting native trees, and wild flowers is big at the moment. This is something that will interest kids, schools, and wildlife enthusiasts. And in the longrun, will be beneficial to game birds, and the club.

Bog Trotter99

Eddie B wrote: »

You need to look for "Whats Fashionable" in today's world. Planting native trees, and wild flowers is big at the moment. This is something that will interest kids, schools, and wildlife enthusiasts. And in the longrun, will be beneficial to game birds, and the club.

True, but 'game birds' to most people does not mean food. It means something totally different and not acceptable.

So planting trees and flowers can be done without blasting birds out of the sky.

Do you see the point? There has to be a wide organised campaign to explain that why things are done.

Basically you have to get back to the point where butchers shops were in every town with animals hanging up outside them to eat and not supermarkets selling plastic covered heavily disguised meat calling it by fancy names.

Rows Grower

Eddie B wrote: »

You need to look for "Whats Fashionable" in today's world. Planting native trees, and wild flowers is big at the moment. This is something that will interest kids, schools, and wildlife enthusiasts. And in the longrun, will be beneficial to game birds, and the club.

That's not only a fashionable but very sensible suggestion. Everyone's a winner with that attitude.

It's not going to do the sport or any club much good if they are seen to be suggesting or creating "amenities" near public walkways where the wild birds will rest so they can be shot down the road or across the ditch.

Bog Trotter99

Rows Grower wrote: »

That's not only a fashionable but very sensible suggestion. Everyone's a winner with that attitude.

It's not going to do the sport or any club much good if they are seen to be suggesting or creating "amenities" near public walkways where the wild birds will rest so they can be shot down the road or across the ditch.

But the public arent interested in your 'sport'. Why should they be? The public are interested in what suits them and not what you 'think'.

The trouble with your idea is that you are entering the time in your history, where mass planting of woodland is going to take place everywhere and you the tax payer will be footing the bill. New environmental taxes which will increase each year.

A few token areas by gun totting shooters isnt going to make much impression on the whole scheme of things. However it is a very good gesture.

More education is what is needed but I doubt if the lefties will let you through the school gates.

Bog Trotter99

No I am pointing out what the perception of the public is regards their food, farming practices, use of the countryside and sportsmen. In this case shooting sportsmen.

The purpose of the thread is to.......... 'showing the local community what we actually do instead of them listening to the anti’s and trying to get more people interested especially the younger generation.'

The 'anti's' have been there for a long time doing their funky stuff convincing the public to their way of thinking. Of late they are very successful.

You are jumping in way down the ladder with what will be very soon tiny token gestures regards tree planting.

When the public see millions upon millions of trees being planted all around them, there isn't going to be much interest in what a local gun club is doing with same in a microscopic example in comparison.

Game and country Fairs and such have always been a great way of educating the public to everything to do with the countryside.

Today you have Youtube. Another way of educating the public. But by that I do not mean shooting videos.

Eddie B

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

No I am pointing out what the perception of the public is regards their food, farming practices, use of the countryside and sportsmen. In this case shooting sportsmen.

The purpose of the thread is to.......... 'showing the local community what we actually do instead of them listening to the anti’s and trying to get more people interested especially the younger generation.'

The 'anti's' have been there for a long time doing their funky stuff convincing the public to their way of thinking. Of late they are very successful.

You are jumping in way down the ladder with what will be very soon tiny token gestures regards tree planting.

When the public see millions upon millions of trees being planted all around them, there isn't going to be much interest in what a local gun club is doing with same in a microscopic example in comparison.

So tell us, what would you suggest?

Bog Trotter99

I did Eddie. I edited my post.

Eddie B

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

I did Eddie. I edited my post.

Yes I see that, and although they
May be somewhat beneficial, I don't think either are really gonna change anything.

I feel we are going off track regarding what the op asked. I think you are looking at the bigger picture, but that's for another thread. So maybe starting a new thread might be a suggestion.

Rows Grower

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

No I am pointing out what the perception of the public is regards their food, farming practices, use of the countryside and sportsmen. In this case shooting sportsmen.

The purpose of the thread is to.......... 'showing the local community what we actually do instead of them listening to the anti’s and trying to get more people interested especially the younger generation.'

The 'anti's' have been there for a long time doing their funky stuff convincing the public to their way of thinking. Of late they are very successful.

You are jumping in way down the ladder with what will be very soon tiny token gestures regards tree planting.

When the public see millions upon millions of trees being planted all around them, there isn't going to be much interest in what a local gun club is doing with same in a microscopic example in comparison.

Game and country Fairs and such have always been a great way of educating the public to everything to do with the countryside.

Today you have Youtube. Another way of educating the public. But by that I do not mean shooting videos.

You've maybe been brought up in a very different environment to myself but I've been at a few and it's mostly enthusiasts attended.

Bog Trotter99

People love to see things made the old way and old ways of living. More so now because it was environmentally friendly which life has to be.

So if you can get together people who make baskets, trugs, items made from coppicing and all that kind of stuff. You will have a collection of folk who would join you to put on a show especially when it gives them the chance to sell things.

You may scoff at that. But it was exactly how the first game and country shows started in the UK and I was there when there was almost zero interest. Look at them now.

Added to that you had people like Jack Hargreaves in the late 70's onwards making his short old way of living films for TV which was done on a tiny budget. Today his and other peoples stuff is big time viewing.

There are in the last 18 months a number of farming and sheep channels started on Youtube. Some Irish ones as well and they are growing at a fantastic rate.

Nobody wants to see killing so all that is skirted tastefully around and avoided. It is all peak family viewing.

The Hoof GP, The Sheep Game, Tom Pembertons Farm, Dale Farm, are just few of the UK ones which show life on farms and such for family viewing. There is no reason Shooting and countryside management cannot be done the same way etc.

Bog Trotter99

Rows Grower wrote: »

You've maybe been brought up in a very different environment to myself but I've been at a few and it's mostly enthusiasts attended.

Weston Park attended by a few enthusiasts?

The first ones I went to were in 1984 and that place is huge now.

Rows Grower

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Weston Park attended by a few enthusiasts?

The first ones I went to were in 1984 and that place is huge now.

In 37 years a tree will grow a lot too.

Bog Trotter99

Irish girl started 12 months ago. Joanne The Shearer ............... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCBbDX9dFwasefuPd7LlItA/videos

Farmer Phil in Wicklow ........... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCBbDX9dFwasefuPd7LlItA/videos

If they can get channels going here then why cant you?

Bog Trotter99

Rows Grower wrote: »

[/B]

In 37 years a tree will grow a lot too.

Ahh well there we go. See you in another life. You can tell us how you became a millionaire in a day.

Back in 1984 vegetarians were as rare as hens teeth and nobody on the planet knew what vegan was. A coney fur coat was owned by most girls. Things are different now arent they?

Eddie B

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

People love to see things made the old way and old ways of living. More so now because it was environmentally friendly which life has to be.

So if you can get together people who make baskets, trugs, items made from coppicing and all that kind of stuff. You will have a collection of folk who would join you to put on a show especially when it gives them the chance to sell things.

You may scoff at that. But it was exactly how the first game and country shows started in the UK and I was there when there was almost zero interest. Look at them now.

Added to that you had people like Jack Hargreaves in the late 70's onwards making his short old way of living films for TV which was done on a tiny budget. Today his and other peoples stuff is big time viewing.

There are in the last 18 months a number of farming and sheep channels started on Youtube. Some Irish ones as well and they are growing at a fantastic rate.

Nobody wants to see killing so all that is skirted tastefully around and avoided. It is all peak family viewing.

The Hoof GP, The Sheep Game, Tom Pembertons Farm, Dale Farm, are just few of the UK ones which show life on farms and such for family viewing. There is no reason Shooting and countryside management cannot be done the same way etc.

Yes, and that is why I suggested that clubs get involved in what is the in thing with regards conservation. It benefits the clubs, and hunting as a by product. You don't have to shove dead pheasants into people's faces. Just show the public that the hunting community, are actually part of the community, and are willing to help enhance the state of the countryside.

Grizzly 45

Kind of academic anyway this whole thing...As the majority of these parish clubs seem to be Fudd hangouts who don't want to know or it seems to care about anything progressive to enhance their clubs or sports reputation in the eyes of the public or community.
All a lot of them seem to be interested in is taking as many birds as possible in Nov for the least effort over the most land possible in the parish, and unless you are 5th gen of that parish, don't bother applying to join. So something like improving an image would be Greek to them.
Need to go tidy our rooms first before setting the world to right...
Change my mind.

Bog Trotter99

The point that Grizzly raises is a good one. To some shooting is just that and anything else is what 'others' do.

If you want to make an effort yourself, then the cheapest and I think most effective would be a camera and a Youtube, Facebook and Twitter channel.

Document what you do as often as possible, but try and do interesting things and show interesting things. Get a couple of game/trail cameras and put in that footage. Make 2, even 3 videos per week. Never show shooting unless at targets. Avoid all mention of the actual end of what you have reared until the last time and do not dwell on it.

If you have kids, then get them involved with you and show them taking part.

You may think that nobody is interested, but I can tell you that after a while that channel will grow hugely just as the others I mentioned have. Then the locals will hear about you as well and others may want to join you.

Show the damage that other animals can do to your birds and the farmers livestock. Repeatedly labelling them 'vermin' is not good. Predators is a better description. But most people do not understand what these animals will do and why they increase in an area where there is an easy food supply for them.

Feisar

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

The point that Grizzly raises is a good one. To some shooting is just that and anything else is what 'others' do.

If you want to make an effort yourself, then the cheapest and I think most effective would be a camera and a Youtube, Facebook and Twitter channel.

Document what you do as often as possible, but try and do interesting things and show interesting things. Get a couple of game/trail cameras and put in that footage. Make 2, even 3 videos per week. Never show shooting unless at targets. Avoid all mention of the actual end of what you have reared until the last time and do not dwell on it.

If you have kids, then get them involved with you and show them taking part.

You may think that nobody is interested, but I can tell you that after a while that channel will grow hugely just as the others I mentioned have. Then the locals will hear about you as well and others may want to join you.

Show the damage that other animals can do to your birds and the farmers livestock. Repeatedly labelling them 'vermin' is not good. Predators is a better description. But most people do not understand what these animals will do and why they increase in an area where there is an easy food supply for them.

There is a youtube channel, Fieldsports Ireland, circa 300K subscribers. I don't know anything about the lads running it but they put out slick enough looking vids. I don't know how long videos like that take to put together but I'm guessing a lot of time goes into it, never mind the skill set behind it. If I went and tried to do the same it'd look like some lad bumbling about in the fields trying to take a video with his phone.
Then you've the problem with people who aren't interested seeing this. My youtube feed is totally different to my wifes for example.

Feisar

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

unless you are 5th gen of that parish, don't bother applying to join.

Be a good yank and go home! :D:D

Richard308

You’re missing the point, if you put a face to local gun club they will know you’re not a blood thirsty killer, they’ll get to know the old country lifestyle to live in balance with nature, that we put back more than we take.

Bog Trotter99

Feisar wrote: »

There is a youtube channel, Fieldsports Ireland, circa 300K subscribers. I don't know anything about the lads running it but they put out slick enough looking vids. I don't know how long videos like that take to put together but I'm guessing a lot of time goes into it, never mind the skill set behind it. If I went and tried to do the same it'd look like some lad bumbling about in the fields trying to take a video with his phone.
Then you've the problem with people who aren't interested seeing this. My youtube feed is totally different to my wifes for example.

So the answers is do not bother?

Bog Trotter99

Richard308 wrote: »

You’re missing the point, if you put a face to local gun club they will know you’re not a blood thirsty killer, they’ll get to know the old country lifestyle to live in balance with nature, that we put back more than we take.

So here you are now. I am a member of public who knows nowt about shooting except you kill wild animals. So convince me 'how' you put more than you take back and do good.

List your stuff.

Rows Grower

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Ahh well there we go. See you in another life. You can tell us how you became a millionaire in a day.

Back in 1984 vegetarians were as rare as hens teeth and nobody on the planet knew what vegan was. A coney fur coat was owned by most girls. Things are different now arent they?

Sorry, I can't understand any of the points you are trying to make and for that reason, I'm out.

Grizzly 45

:

Feisar wrote: »

Be a good yank and go home! :D:D

Happen to be just as much a Paddy as a Yank and a Kraut..So FO you!!:D:D:D:D

Feisar

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Happen to be just as much a Paddy as a Yank and a Kraut..So FO you!!:):D

Twas more of a comment about the backwards types you were talking about!

But meant in good sport.

Bog Trotter99

Rows Grower wrote: »

Sorry, I can't understand any of the points you are trying to make and for that reason, I'm out.

I meant you have to start somewhere and nothing happens overnight, so you have to work at it.

I am following you I think.

Feisar

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

So the answers is do not bother?

No not at all. Just that YouTube might not be the best use of ones efforts.

Grizzly 45

Feisar wrote: »

Twas more of a comment about the backwards types you were talking about!

But meant in good sport.

I know... We can slag each other here no bother as we aren't little biatch snowflakes that get offended by any and everything.:p

Grizzly 45

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

So here you are now. I am a member of public who knows nowt about shooting except you kill wild animals. So convince me 'how' you put more than you take back and do good.

List your stuff.

^THIS^... We all should be able to bang of at least 5 points for pro shooting/gun ownership if ever challenged in a discussion straight off.

But remember you are arguing against emotivism, and facts don't matter anymore in the age of "MuH FeeLingZ is Hurt, you NAZI!"debate:rolleyes:

Bog Trotter99

Feisar wrote: »

No not at all. Just that YouTube might not be the best use of ones efforts.

Point taken.

But if others can put lots of shooting vids up, then why can't conservation vids work especially if farming vids have gone ballistic?

Bog Trotter99

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

^THIS^... We all should be able to bang of at least 5 points for pro shooting/gun ownership if ever challenged in a discussion straight off.

But remember you are arguing against emotivism, and facts don't matter anymore in the age of "MuH FeeLingZ is Hurt, you NAZI!"debate:rolleyes:

No Grizzly............ I am a member of the public. My kids tell me about veganism every week because their teacher talks of nothing else.

I want to be convinced by your arguments that those nasty men with guns do more good than what I have been told.

Convince me!!!!

Short sweet examples and explanations.

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

^THIS^... We all should be able to bang of at least 5 points for pro shooting/gun ownership if ever challenged in a discussion straight off.

But remember you are arguing against emotivism, and facts don't matter anymore in the age of "MuH FeeLingZ is Hurt, you NAZI!"debate:rolleyes:

Why should we have to prepare 5 points? In the real world anyone that asks me why do I hunt, shoot or fish I just tell them it's what I like to do.

I don't need to convert them to my choice of lifestyle, if they are interested in learning I'll help all I can but if it's a debate they are looking for or want to make me feel guilty in any way I just politely tell them jog on.

Richard308

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

No Grizzly............ I am a member of the public. My kids tell me about veganism every week because their teacher talks of nothing else.

I want to be convinced by your arguments that those nasty men with guns do more good than what I have been told.

Convince me!!!!


Short sweet examples and explanations.

You need to talk to your school principal, teachers aren’t allowed bring personal beliefs to the classroom. There’s a curriculum for a reason.

What about a pro hunting teacher in school going on about hunting all the time.

Richard308

Feisar wrote: »

Be a good yank and go home! :D:D

Right Grizzly is a yank…… that explains a lot. 😂 not meant as offensive, just I’ll understand better your position on certain topics of discussion.

Feisar

Rows Grower wrote: »

Why should we have to prepare 5 points? In the real world anyone that asks me why do I hunt, shoot or fish I just tell them it's what I like to do.

I don't need to convert them to my choice of lifestyle, if they are interested in learning I'll help all I can but if it's a debate they are looking for or want to make me feel guilty in any way I just politely tell them jog on.

But it's the same people/society that you are telling to jog on that are putting through a lead ban. We are not in our own little bubble unfortunately.

There is huge scope for conservation projects from Gun Clubs. It does very much depend on the people in the club, what there outlook is, as said people shoot because they enjoy the pastime, a lot of groups may want to be just let alone to get on with what they always have done.

Conservation by clubs is massive in the US, in Ireland Ballydangan Bog with Red Grouse (and now Curlew) and Lough Boora for Grey Partridge are good examples. For anyone wanting to set up their own project it would be well to speak with these guys.

Deer, especially the non-native Fallow and Muntjac are a huge problem for old woodland, preventing establishment of saplings, eradicating ground flora. Without predators the only limitation is culling. Maybe get involved in fencing deer exclosures, census work as well as shooting; some of this probably goes on already, but explain and publicise this.

Most professional ecologists and conservation workers are very attuned to the realities of population control, it is always best to work with them, they are not the enemy.

The pond creation idea is excellent, again best to ensure no important habitat is removed in their creation, but something that could be shouted from the rooftops if done

Bog Trotter99

Richard308 wrote: »

You need to talk to your school principal, teachers aren’t allowed bring personal beliefs to the classroom. There’s a curriculum for a reason.

What about a pro hunting teacher in school going on about hunting all the time.

It was just an example to kick it off. I didnt actually mean the teacher is a veggie ramming it down the kids throats.:rolleyes: Purely all fictitious.

Bog Trotter99

Deleted User wrote: »

There is huge scope for conservation projects from Gun Clubs. It does very much depend on the people in the club, what there outlook is, as said people shoot because they enjoy the pastime, a lot of groups may want to be just let alone to get on with what they always have done.

Conservation by clubs is massive in the US, in Ireland Ballydangan Bog with Red Grouse (and now Curlew) and Lough Boora for Grey Partridge are good examples. For anyone wanting to set up their own project it would be well to speak with these guys.

Deer, especially the non-native Fallow and Muntjac are a huge problem for old woodland, preventing establishment of saplings, eradicating ground flora. Without predators the only limitation is culling. Maybe get involved in fencing deer exclosures, census work as well as shooting; some of this probably goes on already, but explain and publicise this.

Most professional ecologists and conservation workers are very attuned to the realities of population control, it is always best to work with them, they are not the enemy.

The pond creation idea is excellent, again best to ensure no important habitat is removed in their creation, but something that could be shouted from the rooftops if done

Ok sir.

Why cant the land owner put up proper fencing to keep the deer out?

If the numbers get too big why can't a professional marksmen shoot the deer painlessly instead of you blood thirsty hunters with guns which shouldn't be allowed?

Bog Trotter99

Rows Grower wrote: »

Why should we have to prepare 5 points? In the real world anyone that asks me why do I hunt, shoot or fish I just tell them it's what I like to do.

I don't need to convert them to my choice of lifestyle, if they are interested in learning I'll help all I can but if it's a debate they are looking for or want to make me feel guilty in any way I just politely tell them jog on.

Because the public who will decide through 'public opinion' what is acceptable and not acceptable in todays society. In your case you want to inform the public of what a great and necessary service hunters do for conservation.

You just fell at the first fence.

Feisar

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Ok sir.

Why cant the land owner put up proper fencing to keep the deer out?

If the numbers get too big why can't a professional marksmen shoot the deer painlessly instead of you blood thirsty hunters with guns which shouldn't be allowed?

I'll play.

Firstly one needs a 10 foot fence to keep deer out. Erecting that around farmland is going to cost a pretty penny.

Secondly can you show me to the section of the yellow pages with these pro marksmen? Also as they are professionals, who's going to be paying them?
And since it's a service we are paying for please make sure the operatives that are supplied have their city and guilds marksmanship qualification with them.

Bog Trotter99

Feisar wrote: »

I'll play.

Firstly one needs a 10 foot fence to keep deer out. Erecting that around farmland is going to cost a pretty penny.

Secondly can you show me to the section of the yellow pages with these pro marksmen? Also as they are professionals, who's going to be paying them?
And since it's a service we are paying for please make sure the operatives that are supplied have their city and guilds marksmanship qualification with them.

But dont all these rich farmers with their new 4x4's get grants for this? It's tax payers cash and I have heard of farmers down our way who get hundreds of thousands in grants.

Is it not under pest control and dont the army have marksmen who can do this job?

Feisar

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

But dont all these rich farmers with their new 4x4's get grants for this? It's tax payers cash and I have heard of farmers down our way who get hundreds of thousands in grants.

Is it not under pest control and dont the army have marksmen who can do this job?

Your comment about "rich farmers" is baseless conjecture. Tax payers cash? Please point me in the direction of the grant that is going to pay for these 10 foot fences?

Please give a pest control service a call and see for yourself however I can tell you it is not.
I am sure the army have markspersons capable of the job however please advise on:

Insurance coverage
The Irish Army's interest/availability
Willingness to undertake training on carcass management

And I'm not suggesting that the above is not possible however why try and force a round peg through a square hole when the answer to the issue is sitting in front of us.

Feisar

At the end of the day there isn't a tradition of shooting in this country. We're seen as a bunch of skulking oddball poachers.

Bog Trotter99

Feisar wrote: »

Your comment about "rich farmers" is baseless conjecture. Tax payers cash? Please point me in the direction of the grant that is going to pay for these 10 foot fences?

Please give a pest control service a call and see for yourself however I can tell you it is not.
I am sure the army have markspersons capable of the job however please advise on:

Insurance coverage
The Irish Army's interest/availability
Willingness to undertake training on carcass management

And I'm not suggesting that the above is not possible however why try and force a round peg through a square hole when the answer to the issue is sitting in front of us.

I see I understand your points now although I am not in agreement.

But you spoke of conservation measures that you do. What are these conservation measures?

Rows Grower

Feisar wrote: »

But it's the same people/society that you are telling to jog on that are putting through a lead ban. We are not in our own little bubble unfortunately.

Why would you presume I'm not in favour of a lead ban?

meathstevie

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Ok sir.

Why cant the land owner put up proper fencing to keep the deer out?

If the numbers get too big why can't a professional marksmen shoot the deer painlessly instead of you blood thirsty hunters with guns which shouldn't be allowed?

Ah lol, professional marksmen shooting deer painlessly ?

Next time I’m in the gun shop I’ll ask them for painless rifle ammo... .

Any decently placed shot from a high velocity full bore center fire rifle will have a deer at least unconscious if not dead on the ground before it can have possibly heard the shot.

You do realise that bar a select few zoo keepers and NPWS rangers “professional marksmen” are trained to shoot humans. And more importantly make a judgement call on when or when not to shoot humans.