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The great myths of housing

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    #62
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,540 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    mariaalice wrote: »
    I know this is a cranky old person rant, but how on earth did people raise 6 children in a 3 bed house with no issues.

    A 3-bed semi is more than adequate for a family with two children.

    Who says there were no issues?


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    #63
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,071 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Cyrus wrote: »
    have they reopened the ship yards and the coal mines :eek:

    ...yea keep going there now, its only your kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews that are in trouble, which means, you re also in trouble!


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    #64
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,943 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ...yea keep going there now, its only your kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews that are in trouble, which means, you re also in trouble!

    i have literally no idea what you mean.


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    #65
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,071 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Cyrus wrote: »
    i have literally no idea what you mean.

    oh i know


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    #66
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,943 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    oh i know

    if it makes you feel any better my kids will be fine, ill make sure of it :)


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    #67
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    mariaalice wrote: »
    I know this is a cranky old person rant, but how on earth did people raise 6 children in a 3 bed house with no issues.

    A 3-bed semi is more than adequate for a family with two children.

    I didn't think its a case of not having issues more putting up with the issues as there was not other option. Now we have higher expectations and rightly so our nation has developed a lot. But would agree a three bed is got enough or should be for a family of 4 . But houses have been getting smaller in particular the housing estate semis. The one offs in the country side bigger. Plus there is now alot more material possessions, electrical goods and stuff for kids etc... that all needs extra space.


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    #68
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,071 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Cyrus wrote: »
    if it makes you feel any better my kids will be fine, ill make sure of it :)

    ..oh ive no doubt you will, but spare a thought for other folks kids, that wont be as lucky, and the fact, you cant control everything to make your kids and grandkids futures more secure, the more we play this game, the more uncertain their future becomes


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    #69
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    The biggest problem i see is that successive Governments have tried to treat the housing market like a free market: the market will regulate itself based on demand.

    While at the same time manipulating the market with things like incentives for first time buyers and mandatory deposits of 20% for other buyers.

    They should either **** or get off the pot. Either let it be a laissez faire free market or regulate the property market properly.

    Some things we could do to regulate:

    Tax empty properties at an outrageously high rate. CPO after a fixed time if they remain vacant.

    CPO development land at market value. Developers buy from Government, only with a full plan of what development will be done and when.
    A minimum of 10% donated to local authorities as social housing. Distributed throughout the development, not in one corner.

    Increase funding for other social housing.

    Speed up eviction for rent/mortgage defaulters.

    Drop the minimum deposit criteria. Let the banks decide. But make it clear there will be no further bailouts. Fine the banks if defaults raise about a certain threshold.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #70
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,071 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Brian? wrote: »
    The biggest problem i see is that successive Governments have tried to treat the housing market like a free market: the market will regulate itself based on demand.

    While at the same time manipulating the market with things like incentives for first time buyers and mandatory deposits of 20% for other buyers.

    They should either **** or get off the pot. Either let it be a laissez faire free market or regulate the property market properly.

    Some things we could do to regulate:

    Tax empty properties at an outrageously high rate. CPO after a fixed time if they remain vacant.

    CPO development land at market value. Developers buy from Government, only with a full plan of what development will be done and when.
    A minimum of 10% donated to local authorities as social housing. Distributed throughout the development, not in one corner.

    Increase funding for other social housing.

    Speed up eviction for rent/mortgage defaulters.

    Drop the minimum deposit criteria. Let the banks decide. But make it clear there will be no further bailouts. Fine the banks if defaults raise about a certain threshold.

    its clearly obvious, this ideology is done, it actually died in 08, but yet here we still are trying it, now thats disturbing!


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    #71
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    schmittel wrote: »
    A provocative article in todays Indo by Conor Skehan - Let’s demolish the four great myths of housing


    One of his arguments against the crisis is that we already have supply, and that new builds are not the solution:

    He's right in part about that. There are loads of perfectly inhabitable houses lying empty in central Dublin for reasons best known to their owners.

    I live in leafy Dublin 4 (It's great. I'm so privileged. Suck it!)
    The house next door to me has been empty for at least five years. Prior to that it was always rented out. It has never been owner occupied. It was probably built 30 years ago, certainly not more than that.

    A few hundred yards away there are people permanently living in pup tents along the canal. What do we do with fúckers like this guy? I'd love to know what his game plan is. I suspect he's waiting for the house on the other side (a business premises) to come on sale so he can demand a stonking price for the site. But I have no way of knowing for sure. All I know is that we have been living beside an empty house for years.

    Having said which, it is also true that our population has grown rapidly of late. In my lifetime the population of this state has increased by 75%. Many people I say this to have difficulty believing it, until I direct them to the website of the CSO and its section on the census. Now the last census was taken five years ago, so it's out of date but the Worldometers Website currently puts our population at just under 5 million. Which vindicates my claim. (In 1961 it was 2.8 million)

    With that sort of growth, there is inevitably a need for new houses but that doesn't mean we should tolerate so many existing ones being left empty for speculative reasons.

    The question is how to do it.
    schmittel wrote: »

    I don't agree with everything he says, but I think he has some valid points - the supply crisis is not as bad as we are led to believe, and there are other solutions available than new builds.

    I wholeheartedly agree that of all the measures to tackle housing, myth busting is the most important.
    No argument there.

    Fintan O'Toole recently quoted Lampedusa in an article on this very topic. "If you want things to stay the same, they're going to have to change".

    That is so true.

    If we don't do something meaningful soon, we will have people trying to implement bad ideas just because they sound nice.

    There's a difference between a nice idea and a good idea.


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    #72
    ec18
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ec18


    mariaalice wrote: »
    I know this is a cranky old person rant, but how on earth did people raise 6 children in a 3 bed house with no issues.

    A 3-bed semi is more than adequate for a family with two children.

    People have notions now? (I'm bring funny here) there was issues but they weren't known as much as there was no way to see different ways of life?
    Ace2007 wrote: »
    But there posters on here saying that they want to live in x area because they grew up there, or they have friends there etc. This is one big part of the problem, to many people want to live in areas that they cannot afford.

    You say that houses prices in the city should match median earnings - does this include the likes of Howth or Dalkey? If not, Why should it be any different there than Ranelagh or Rathfarnham?

    There are areas of every city and town that never matched the median income and never will. That's just a harsh reality of life, we'd all love to be able to pick exactly where we want to live and the type of house but you have to make compromises based on your situation. The reality of rathfarnham and ranelagh at the minute is that they are populated by people on high salaries.


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    #73
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,451 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    The 3-bed thing its not notions, it is a mixture of issues.


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    #74
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ec18 wrote: »
    Do you have a link to when that was last true?

    Do I need one? It was true. And the age of first purchase was much lower too.

    There’s a lot of head in the sand, and there’s a lot of “no crisis here” commentary. That’s going to solve nothing except bring Sinn Fein to power.


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    #75
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ec18 wrote: »
    The reality of rathfarnham and ranelagh at the minute is that they are populated by people on high salaries.

    High salaries, I doubt it. The people living there are most upper class, inherited wealth, profits and high passive incomes.


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    #76
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,943 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    fvp4 wrote: »
    High salaries, I doubt it.

    believe it


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    #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    mariaalice wrote: »
    The 3-bed thing its not notions, it is a mixture of issues.

    To be fair if a modern couple only have 2 children, it’s reasonable to expect a bedroom each. Not so much if you have 6.


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    #78
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,451 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    fvp4 wrote: »
    To be fair if a modern couple only have 2 children, it’s reasonable to expect a bedroom each. Not so much if you have 6.

    A 3-bed semi is a bedroom each for a family of 2 children, I'm guessing that mammy and daddy with be sleeping in the same bedroom.


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    #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Cyrus wrote: »
    believe it

    Very few high salaries can buy a house worth a million, or two million on a mortgage. Maybe very high VP level in IT, but they would need 500k plus. Of course there are options etc.

    Whenever I hear of people selling those houses it’s never top level IT people etc. It’s people like John Rocha, or business people. Or some ancient family selling a house they’ve been in for 100 years.


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    #80
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    mariaalice wrote: »
    A 3-bed semi is a bedroom each for a family of 2 children, I'm guessing that mammy and daddy with be sleeping in the same bedroom.

    Yeh. That was my point. Wanting a bedroom each for 2 children isn’t notions.


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    #81
    ec18
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ec18


    fvp4 wrote: »
    Do I need one? It was true. And the age of first purchase was much lower too.

    There’s a lot of head in the sand, and there’s a lot of “no crisis here” commentary. That’s going to solve nothing except bring Sinn Fein to power.

    Yes actually if you are going to make a statement referencing median values and wanting to go back to a time when the aforementioned statement was true. You need to provide evidence.


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    #82
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,943 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    fvp4 wrote: »
    Very few high salaries can buy a house worth a million, or two million on a mortgage. Maybe very high VP level in IT, but they would need 500k plus. Of course there are options etc.

    Whenever I hear of people selling those houses it’s never top level IT people etc. It’s people like John Rocha, or business people. Or some ancient family selling a house they’ve been in for 100 years.

    a couple on 125k each with no kids can borrow 875k, 125k isnt a massive salary these days (in relative terms), there are load of couples like that out there. They will tend to have buying power up to 1m - 1.1m depending on what they have saved.

    for the houses at 2-5m it more likely to be a CXO level but to think most people buying in these places are sitting at home with massive inheritance earning a passive income is not true.


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    #83
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,451 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    fvp4 wrote: »
    Yeh. That was my point. Wanting a bedroom each for 2 children isn’t notions.

    The talking head/expert on property on a discussion bit on a radio program said a 3-bed semi is only a starter home that is where I am getting this from, now why wasn't there a property expert saying a 3-bed semi is perfectly adequate as a family home.


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    #84
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Cyrus wrote: »
    a couple on 125k each with no kids can borrow 875k, 125k isnt a massive salary these days (in relative terms), there are load of couples like that out there. They will tend to have buying power up to 1m - 1.1m depending on what they have saved.

    for the houses at 2-5m it more likely to be a CXO level but to think most people buying in these places are sitting at home with massive inheritance earning a passive income is not true.

    125K each is in fact very rare. It's a family income of 250k. So yes in that very rare case some salaried workers can buy, with a huge deposit, one of the cheaper houses in those areas.


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    #85
    ec18
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ec18


    fvp4 wrote: »
    Very few high salaries can buy a house worth a million, or two million on a mortgage. Maybe very high VP level in IT, but they would need 500k plus. Of course there are options etc.

    Whenever I hear of people selling those houses it’s never top level IT people etc. It’s people like John Rocha, or business people. Or some ancient family selling a house they’ve been in for 100 years.

    Not really if you're a couple with two incomes one say is a senior accountant and the other is that high level it person a household income of 150K - 200K is possibly on the lower side even. Take the middle of 175k income

    175 * 3.5 = 612,000

    Add in a deposit of say 200K which wouldn't be terribly un reasonable to have saved on those salaries over a number of years. And you're in the neighbourhood of 1 million. Maybe they get an exception to 4.5x salary and you're at

    175 * 4.5 = 787,000 + 200,000 = 987,000

    so the million euro house isn't that far out of reach that you'd need a VP on 500k...


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    #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ec18 wrote: »
    Yes actually if you are going to make a statement referencing median values and wanting to go back to a time when the aforementioned statement was true. You need to provide evidence.

    I am not sure why you want evidence of this, because it would be like me saying the sky is blue and you demanding evidence. House prices have risen faster than incomes for years, hence the affordability issue.

    in the past one income, and a moderate one, could buy a house inside the M50.


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    #87
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ec18 wrote: »
    Not really if you're a couple with two incomes one say is a senior accountant and the other is that high level it person a household income of 150K - 200K is possibly on the lower side even. Take the middle of 175k income

    175 * 3.5 = 612,000

    Add in a deposit of say 200K which wouldn't be terribly un reasonable to have saved on those salaries over a number of years. And you're in the neighbourhood of 1 million. Maybe they get an exception to 4.5x salary and you're at

    175 * 4.5 = 787,000 + 200,000 = 987,000

    so the million euro house isn't that far out of reach that you'd need a VP on 500k...

    yes, so even with that huge deposit and a very high income they can just make a cheap house in that area. What about when we get to a 2 million house?

    Those people would be better off buying in Raheny or Clontarf by the way.

    Again I don't get the issue here. Clearly its high wealth people who own these houses, and whatever income is involved is not mainly from salary.


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    #88
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,943 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    fvp4 wrote: »
    125K each is in fact very rare. It's a family income of 250k.

    its not as rare as people want to think, anyone in the big law or accountancy firms with 10 years experience will be earning that or close to it, and they very often couple up,

    the people who left and went to industry will out earn them unless they make partner.

    there are loads of people in their 30s earning that kind of money.


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    #89
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,071 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Cyrus wrote: »
    its not as rare as people want to think, anyone in the big law or accountancy firms with 10 years experience will be earning that or close to it, and they very often couple up,

    the people who left and went to industry will out earn them unless they make partner.

    there are loads of people in their 30s earning that kind of money.

    most people in their 30's are more than likely stuck in the 30-50k income brackets


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    #90
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,943 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    most people in their 30's are more than likely stuck in the 30-50k income brackets

    most are , plenty aren't.

    we are talking about the people who are buying the 1m euro houses.


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    #91
    timmyntc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,005 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    fvp4 wrote: »
    yes, so even with that huge deposit and a very high income they can just make a cheap house in that area. What about when we get to a 2 million house?

    Those people would be better off buying in Raheny or Clontarf by the way.

    Again I don't get the issue here. Clearly its high wealth people who own these houses, and whatever income is involved is not mainly from salary.

    More than likely people on higher incomes but also with a lot of equity in their current home - you would have to be trading up & mortgage free really to start affording houses in the million+ bracket


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