The great myths of housing

ec18

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, the issue is in fact high property price inflation v's low wage inflation, these are not compatible, hence our current situation!

The issue is property price inflation in high demand areas that are close to the city centre and surrounded by large companies with high salary positions

timmyntc

ec18 wrote: »

The issue is property price inflation in high demand areas that are close to the city centre and surrounded by large companies with high salary positions

The issue is property price inflation nationally. It's not just Dublin city centre, its everywhere.

Ray Palmer

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, the issue is in fact high property price inflation v's low wage inflation, these are not compatible, hence our current situation!

You rely aren't considering the massive cultural changes in the country. Households went from 1 income to 2 as women became more important in the work force. So house prices were always going to go up. Household incomes became higher. When getting a mortgage 2 incomes are considered now.
Secondary incomes were common in the past. One main income and a partner working a till when the children were at school or students with a job for pocket money. Now people expect these low paying jobs to be a living wage. It never was before.
New standard of living with each child expecting a room to themselves. People expect 2 cars now.
Divorce has had an impact along with less marriages. Requires more property. The HSE will pay for both parents to have 2 bed places for one child.

It really isn't as simple as prices just kept going up due to greed but a massive change in what is expected.

Browney7

ec18 wrote: »

The issue is property price inflation in high demand areas that are close to the city centre and surrounded by large companies with high salary positions

Some of the strongest inflation numbers the past while have been Wicklow, Meath and Kildare based on the CSO numbers I've seen.

A lot of this could be explained somewhat by these counties having a higher share of new build properties which have shown higher growth rates due to building standards, materials prices and the HTB free money refund being increased to 10% (cap of 30k) instead of 5%. The "Race for space" effect is also driving demand with people wanting to be near Dublin for the few days a week in the office whilst getting more bang for their buck house wise in Naas, Newbridge, Ratoath and other such places.

Brian?

Cyrus wrote: »

a couple on 125k each with no kids can borrow 875k, 125k isnt a massive salary these days (in relative terms), there are load of couples like that out there. They will tend to have buying power up to 1m - 1.1m depending on what they have saved.

for the houses at 2-5m it more likely to be a CXO level but to think most people buying in these places are sitting at home with massive inheritance earning a passive income is not true.

125k is 3x the average wage. That's rare.

GreeBo

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...again, these are all flippant remarks, we dont live on a planet that makes these 'solutions' actually possible for some, they can also cause quite serious social dysfunctions and outcomes, and you d wonder why we re experiencing such upheaval politically across the world, wake up lads, again, this is your kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews, we re talking about here!

If you are on 30-40k why on earth would you feel that you should be able to live in some of the most sought after parts of the country?

GreeBo

Brian? wrote: »

125k is 3x the average wage. That's rare.

People living in Rathfarnham and Ranelagh are rare.
Why are we even having conversations about why average income people cant afford to live in expensive areas?

Snickers Man

Ace2007 wrote: »

If your stuck, move jobs, re-educate yourself, find a second income, move to an area that you can afford etc.

...and if you don't have any bread.......eat some cake!
:rolleyes:

ec18

timmyntc wrote: »

The issue is property price inflation nationally. It's not just Dublin city centre, its everywhere.

Taking a random example of Thurles in tipperary house prices start at 55K for a 1 bed apartment and the cheapest 3 bed house is 110K. Take 10% out of that is a 99K mortgage around (28K income required).

Admittedly that is a random search very much just looking at price but there are some houses available.

I'm not saying it's all on people to just compromise and get on it with it there's some policy work that needs to be done. But there needs to be some cutting of cloth to match the measure as well.

GreeBo

ec18 wrote: »

The issue is property price inflation in high demand areas that are close to the city centre and surrounded by large companies with high salary positions

Why wouldnt high demand for a limited resource lead to price inflation?

What would your expectation be in this scenario? What would artificially keep prices "affordable", and how do you divide 4 buyers into 3 houses, regardless of the price?

Ace2007

GreeBo wrote: »

People living in Rathfarnham and Ranelagh are rare.
Why are we even having conversations about why average income people cant afford to live in expensive areas?

Because that' what people are complaining about on here the most, how many people do you see complaining about the price of houses in Kerry?

Cyrus

Brian? wrote: »

125k is 3x the average wage. That's rare.

overall it is, its not rare when you are talking about who is buying the houses in the more expensive dublin suburbs.

Wanderer78

GreeBo wrote: »

If you are on 30-40k why on earth would you feel that you should be able to live in some of the most sought after parts of the country?

once again, the ignorance prevails! gentrification, an interesting subject matter, particularly in relation to property and land!

Cyrus

Cyrus wrote: »

its not as rare as people want to think, anyone in the big law or accountancy firms with 10 years experience will be earning that or close to it, and they very often couple up,

the people who left and went to industry will out earn them unless they make partner.

there are loads of people in their 30s earning that kind of money.

Indeed, also, the likes of a maintenance tech on 24/7 shift would be on the guts of €100k.
Don't need to be at the top of the tree to pull in a decent wedge.

GreeBo

Ace2007 wrote: »

Because that' what people are complaining about on here the most, how many people do you see complaining about the price of houses in Kerry?

So why not a thread complaining about the price of diamonds or Porsches?

Many people have an issue that their expectation doesnt match their reality.
Just because your low to middle class parents could afford a house in Dublin on the a single industrial wage doesnt mean that you can or should also be able to do it.

If one thinks about it logically for even a minute, it should be obvious.
You and your siblings grew up in 1 house, but it will take more than 1 house to give each of you a home. Space is finite, ergo demand is higher than supply.

Brian?

Ace2007 wrote: »

They aren't though.

There are a large number of high paid people/couples in this country - because they worked hard in school got good education and then worked hard and move up ladder in their jobs.

If you are stuck in the bracket of 30k - then somewhere along the lines you didn't put in the work, that might sound very harsh, but that's the reality of the situation. If your in your twenties and stuck - why not make sacrifices and go and retrain - be it with a trade or with college. Yes it might be hard, but why should it be easy?

Honest you're delusional. When I lived in Ireland my family income was over 150k, but we had 2 kids. A 400k house was about the most we could afford to live in. 320k mortgage at 4.5%.

I moved to the Netherlands, first year here my wife didn't work and my income was about 90k. Bought a house with a 100% mortgage at 1.3% for 375k. Could have had a mortgage as high as 550k at 1.3%.

I was paying more to live in a 3 bed in Celbridge than I am to live in a 4 bed near the centre of Eindhoven.

There is no area I can't afford to live in here. There are houses I can't afford to buy though obviously. If I moved home I would eliminate most of Dublin from my search because I can't afford it. Even with close to 150k savings.

The market in Ireland is broken. It needs massive surgery to fix.

Folk sh1tting on about most people earn €30/€50k so they can't buy a €1m house.

But most people couple up also so if most are on €30/€50k they can therefore buy a €240 to €380k ish house which provides plenty options.......... but then the sh1tters on will sh1t on about the single person on €20k for life, forever single and forever not progressing.......... etc etc ...........yawn yawn

Brian?

GreeBo wrote: »

People living in Rathfarnham and Ranelagh are rare.
Why are we even having conversations about why average income people cant afford to live in expensive areas?

Because the poster said there are "loads of couples on 125k" each. That's simply wrong, I never said anything about expensive areas.

ec18

Wanderer78 wrote: »

once again, the ignorance prevails! gentrification, an interesting subject matter, particularly in relation to property and land!

So a question, id you have a couple on 35K each so 70K combined that's a mortgage amount of €245,000 with €25,000 deposit. Is a purchase price in €270,000

Which a quick search on daft shows 602 properties available in Dublin.

The median salary for dublin is 47,000 so I'm not sure what you're expecting the couple on 35,000 each to be able to afford?

Wanderer78

ec18 wrote: »

So a question, id you have a couple on 35K each so 70K combined that's a mortgage amount of €245,000 with €25,000 deposit. Is a purchase price in €270,000

Which a quick search on daft shows 602 properties available in Dublin.

The median salary for dublin is 47,000 so I'm not sure what you're expecting the couple on 35,000 each to be able to afford?

once again, the big picture, what has in fact caused our current situation of high property price inflation v's low wage inflation, this didnt just happen out of the blue?

35k each, you d be lucky to buy a shed for that!

Ace2007

Brian? wrote: »

Honest you're delusional. When I lived in Ireland my family income was over 150k, but we had 2 kids. A 400k house was about the most we could afford to live in. 320k mortgage at 4.5%.

I moved to the Netherlands, first year here my wife didn't work and my income was about 90k. Bought a house with a 100% mortgage at 1.3% for 375k. Could have had a mortgage as high as 550k at 1.3%.

I was paying more to live in a 3 bed in Celbridge than I am to live in a 4 bed near the centre of Eindhoven.

There is no area I can't afford to live in here. There are houses I can't afford to buy though obviously. If I moved home I would eliminate most of Dublin from my search because I can't afford it. Even with close to 150k savings.

The market in Ireland is broken. It needs massive surgery to fix.

Ok, so if your moved home - why look in Dublin only? You could probably get a lovely house in Cork, or Donegal.

Your giving an example of what it's like in Eindhoven - if you moved to London you might say different. It was your choice to live where you are living.

Should someone who is on the average wage be afford to buy a house in ANY area of Dublin or Ireland that they want to

mariaalice

Augeo wrote: »

Folk sh1tting on about most people earn €30/€50k so they can't buy a €1m house.

But most people couple up also so if most are on €30/€50k they can therefore buy a €240 to €380k ish house which provides plenty options.......... but then the sh1tters on will sh1t on about the single person on €20k for life, forever single and forever not progressing.......... etc etc ...........yawn yawn

Could not agree more, another one of the property programs was a 30 something single journalist living in a house share they implied that they have to live in Dublin turned off after they implied they have to live in Dublin.

What don't those programs have the couple on 35k each who saved for years and brought in Bettystown or Lucan which is much more reflective of reality?

Cyrus

Brian? wrote: »

i never said anything about expensive areas.

you are taking my posts out of context then.

ec18

Wanderer78 wrote: »

once again, the big picture, what has in fact caused our current situation of high property price inflation v's low wage inflation, this didnt just happen out of the blue?

35k each, you d be lucky to buy a shed for that!

I just don't get what you want? people to be paid more? uniform house prices?

what's the ideal scenario for you?

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

...........

What don't those programs have the couple on 35k each who saved for years and brought in Bettystown or Lucan which is much more reflective of reality?

Populist horsesh1t has no interest in reality.

Recent primetime or Claire B or some crap had folk in their late 30s on, these people have always worked and done "everything right" etc etc but can't buy now so it's everyone else's fault.

Where the fnck were they 2013 to 2016 if they had done everything right? Probably renting at loony low rates and sneering at folk who had bought in the boom I imagine.

ec18

ec18 wrote: »

I just don't get what you want? people to be paid more? uniform house prices?

what's the ideal scenario for you?

Every waster getting sorted is the ideal for him.

timmyntc

Ace2007 wrote: »

Ok, so if your moved home - why look in Dublin only? You could probably get a lovely house in Cork, or Donegal.

Your giving an example of what it's like in Eindhoven - if you moved to London you might say different. It was your choice to live where you are living.

Should someone who is on the average wage be afford to buy a house in ANY area of Dublin or Ireland that they want to

Because cities cannot function with only tech workers or financiers.
Cities need teachers, gardai, nurses, doctors, chefs, bar staff, binmen, and a massive amount of other jobs that keep things moving. A lot of these people can no longer afford to buy in Dublin (though in the past most of the could have).

Do you think they should just leave and those jobs go unfilled? because thats the alternative.

timmyntc

Augeo wrote: »

Populist horsesh1t has no interest in reality.

Recent primetime or Claire B or some crap had folk in their late 30s on, these people have always worked and done "everything right" etc etc but can't buy now so it's everyone else's fault.

Where the fnck were they 2013 to 2016 if they had done everything right? Probably renting at loony low rates and sneering at folk who had bought in the boom I imagine.

Saving maybe or struggling to get a job? Like most of us at that time. Not even 10 years ago and already we have revisionist history going on. Banks were very reluctant to lend back then, borrowing was even harder than it is today, and a lot of people found themselves out of work.

The only one sneering here is you

timmyntc

timmyntc wrote: »

...........

The only one sneering here is you

Not at all, there was no mention of these folk being out of work......... saved for years etc etc
Again, the presenters of the program are happy to go with the flow.

The Student

Wanderer78 wrote: »

once again, the big picture, what has in fact caused our current situation of high property price inflation v's low wage inflation, this didnt just happen out of the blue?

35k each, you d be lucky to buy a shed for that!

You can get three bed semi's in Dublin for sub €300k which is achievable with two incomes of €35k or so each.

You appear to think there is some reason property is the price it is and wages are not? Perhaps you could comment on this particular point and we could examine the merits of same!

Wanderer78

ec18 wrote: »

I just don't get what you want? people to be paid more? uniform house prices?

what's the ideal scenario for you?

its clearly obvious that our political ideologies have largely failed over the last couple of decades, but we are insisting on continuing with them, we must recognise and accept these fundamental failures, in order to move on, to try resolve these failures, are we re all toast, including current property owners. so first step, acceptance, we re still struggling with this one, and it looks like we will be for some time yet, so.....!

as others have pointed out, theres really no easy fixes here, this is one hell of a complex mess, and we re not really sure how to move forward with it, but one thing is clear, the debts required to build must largely remain on the public balance sheet for the foreseeable, but we re not even at this realisation just yet, only some of us are, but not many!

so.......

Brian?

Ace2007 wrote: »

Ok, so if your moved home - why look in Dublin only? You could probably get a lovely house in Cork, or Donegal.

I say Dublin because that's the only place I'm likely to get the job I want. I get paid well to do the thing I'm experienced in. I thought that should be obvious, I'm hardly going to change industry and expect to be paid well.

Your giving an example of what it's like in Eindhoven - if you moved to London you might say different. It was your choice to live where you are living.

Ha, why cite London? It's property market is even more broken than Dublin.

Should someone who is on the average wage be afford to buy a house in ANY area of Dublin or Ireland that they want to

Yes, they should. Mixed cost developments work exceptionally well. It means people can live close to where they work. Including people at the lower end working in the service industry.

Do you think it's sustainable for a barber or a butcher to have to commute an hour to work in a more affluent area? I don't.

We are a million miles from that though. I earn 3-4 times the average wage and I'm excluded. What chance does a supervalu worked have?

timmyntc

Augeo wrote: »

Not at all, there was no mention of these folk being out of work......... saved for years etc etc
Again, the presenters of the program are happy to go with the flow.

Theres your answer - they saved for years, presumably also through the downturn. Before you buy a house you have to save - they were unlucky they hadnt enough saved to buy when things were cheaper.

Whats your problem with that?

mariaalice

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/dun-eimear-eastham-road-bettystown-meath/4014227

Well within the range of a couple on an income of 35k each.

Wanderer78

The Student wrote: »

You can get three bed semi's in Dublin for sub €300k which is achievable with two incomes of €35k or so each.

You appear to think there is some reason property is the price it is and wages are not? Perhaps you could comment on this particular point and we could examine the merits of same!

its important to realise, these facts arent actually truly allowed or encouraged to be expressed here, but any how, i ll try again, yes we in fact are experiencing a catastrophic failure of political ideologies and their related policies, hence these outcomes

Ace2007

timmyntc wrote: »

Because cities cannot function with only tech workers or financiers.
Cities need teachers, gardai, nurses, doctors, chefs, bar staff, binmen, and a massive amount of other jobs that keep things moving. A lot of these people can no longer afford to buy in Dublin (though in the past most of the could have).

Do you think they should just leave and those jobs go unfilled? because thats the alternative.

I know that - but yesterday a poster said he was only looking at the south side because that's where his support bubble and friends are. Despite being able to afford on north side or commute belts he wouldn't entertain the idea.

You should buy where you can afford, not where you want - it's the want that is driving up the prices of houses as people want an area and that's final.

In the past some of the people you mention couldn't buy. Should a deliveroo driver be able to buy a house in Dublin? Genuine question? and if not why not?

mrslancaster

Brian? wrote: »

Honest you're delusional. When I lived in Ireland my family income was over 150k, but we had 2 kids. A 400k house was about the most we could afford to live in. 320k mortgage at 4.5%.

I moved to the Netherlands, first year here my wife didn't work and my income was about 90k. Bought a house with a 100% mortgage at 1.3% for 375k. Could have had a mortgage as high as 550k at 1.3%.

I was paying more to live in a 3 bed in Celbridge than I am to live in a 4 bed near the centre of Eindhoven.

There is no area I can't afford to live in here. There are houses I can't afford to buy though obviously. If I moved home I would eliminate most of Dublin from my search because I can't afford it. Even with close to 150k savings.

The market in Ireland is broken. It needs massive surgery to fix.

Eindhoven is 130km from Amsterdam & about the same distance from the hague. Are you seriously saying it you went 130km outside dublin you wouldn't find cheaper properties?

The only solution is loads of social housing ........... but folk want people to pay €400k+ to live next door to someone who gives the kids scramblers for Christmas after they get the forever home for free. The later won't work and folk won't accept the former.

Cal4567

Conor Skehan has been criticised for comments such as the housing crisis is all quite normal.

While those views sound incendiary, I think they are delivered with bearing on what is happening elsewhere and that in reality, Dublin is no different. Go to any other major city in the Western world, and you will hear the same affordability issues since the financial crash and the difficulties for many to secure good quality and affordable (to a maximum of 30% costs to income) housing. You will also see homeless people in the streets. If you think we have it bad, have many of you seen US cities over the last decade?

I think we have it in spades because added to the above, we also have a much poorer transport infrastructure and Dublin's very unique and now well documented low density aspect. We also have wedded to the market being there to sort it all out principle, and coupled with the fact we are so attractive to FDIs - sure there was great value to be had once we had hit rock bottom .

So, it is normal, sort of, but in real time, it certainly isn't.

Wanderer78

Augeo wrote: »

The only solution is loads of social housing ........... but folk want people to pay €400k+ to live next door to someone who gives the kids scramblers for Christmas after they get the forever home for free. The later won't work and folk won't accept the former.

nope, a combination of social and public housing, and please leave the prejudices out of the conversation!

Ace2007

Brian? wrote: »

I say Dublin because that's the only place I'm likely to get the job I want. I get paid well to do the thing I'm experienced in. I thought that should be obvious, I'm hardly going to change industry and expect to be paid well.


Ha, why cite London? It's property market is even more broken than Dublin.


Yes, they should. Mixed cost developments work exceptionally well. It means people can live close to where they work. Including people at the lower end working in the service industry.

Do you think it's sustainable for a barber or a butcher to have to commute an hour to work in a more affluent area? I don't.

We are a million miles from that though. I earn 3-4 times the average wage and I'm excluded. What chance does a supervalu worked have?

I chose London because large amounts of Irish move there and live. How many move to the Netherlands to live?

Where are these developments going to be built in south city center region?
The issues at hand here isn't living closer to where you work, it's owning a house close to where you live. Very different.

The side that believe they have this right to live anywhere - be in Tallaght or Howth, have yet to give a reasonable way of doing it - other than blame the government. The land isn't available to build houses in the areas that people are looking for.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/dun-eimear-eastham-road-bettystown-meath/4014227

Well within the range of a couple on an income of 35k each.

Where do you live Maria?

Bettystown is nice enough, though a lot of the city is difficult to travel to. But these kind of solutions are not sustainable or sensible. The solution is people not being able to buy in Dublin is not buying in Meath.

Ace2007

Ace2007 wrote: »

I chose London because large amounts of Irish move there and live. How many move to the Netherlands to live?

Where are these developments going to be built in south city center region?
The issues at hand here isn't living closer to where you work, it's owning a house close to where you live. Very different.

The side that believe they have this right to live anywhere - be in Tallaght or Howth, have yet to give a reasonable way of doing it - other than blame the government. The land isn't available to build houses in the areas that people are looking for.

Nobody has ever argued the right to live in Howth, or “everywhere”. Just a reasonable house in the city they work in. On the other hand the other side are suggesting Meath.

hometruths

Ace2007 wrote: »

I know that - but yesterday a poster said he was only looking at the south side because that's where his support bubble and friends are. Despite being able to afford on north side or commute belts he wouldn't entertain the idea.

You should buy where you can afford, not where you want - it's the want that is driving up the prices of houses as people want an area and that's final.

In the past some of the people you mention couldn't buy. Should a deliveroo driver be able to buy a house in Dublin? Genuine question? and if not why not?

I wonder why is it that the being close to the family support bubble seems to be most important to people who grew up in SCD?

I mean, loads of people grew up in Carlow but they don't all feel a burning desire to move back to Carlow to be close to the family support bubble.

ec18

fvp4 wrote: »

Nobody has ever argued the right to live in Howth, or “everywhere”. Just a reasonable house in the city they work in. On the other hand the other side are suggesting Meath.

That's the point for your statement to be true both the above have to be. For example I'm a secretary for an accountant who's office is in Kilmainham therefore I should be able to buy a house in that area.

See how both things can't be true? Just because you work in an area or are from an area doesn't mean that you have a right/entitlement/option to buy a house there.

Cal4567

We are also really behind the curve on being realistic. Many are very late coming to the party that Dublin, like any other capital city, is now very expensive to live in, whereas up until 2008, just about anyone on an average wage, or 2 of them combined, could have been able to buy something within the M50.

It was more exacerbated here because in the Celtic Tiger years banks gave mortgages to many who couldn’t in the end afford to make monthly payments.

It is this shock that is slowly registering with many. That they cannot afford where they want to be, even though there are 2 good jobs and they have deposits in place. That is a very common occurrence now across many cities in other countries.

If I was 40 years younger, I’d be getting a job elsewhere in the country or I’d be heading off to northern England or Scotland. Of course, it all depends what work you do. At the same time, the city needs new social and affordable housing. Key workers – nurses, teachers, shop workers, ambulance drivers, hospital porters, bin men. The list could go on and on.

The Student

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its important to realise, these facts arent actually truly allowed or encouraged to be expressed here, but any how, i ll try again, yes we in fact are experiencing a catastrophic failure of political ideologies and their related policies, hence these outcomes

Your answer is vague so I will ask you to be specific about what political ideologies you are specifically referring to?

mariaalice

fvp4 wrote: »

Where do you live Maria?

Bettystown is nice enough, though a lot of the city is difficult to travel to. But these kind of solutions are not sustainable or sensible. The solution is people not being able to buy in Dublin is not buying in Meath.

Kind of agree with you, but it's not the worst place and it has got the sea not everyone works in the city center and with flexible remote working it would be grand.

This a bit of a cliched answer but like most cliched answers there is some truth to it.

There is a difference between, I can't buy anything within an hour or so commute to work versus I cant buy where I want.

The voices in the public square have a million different answers to the housing issue in the greater Dublin area and all the answers contradict each other.

mrslancaster

fvp4 wrote: »

Where do you live Maria?

Bettystown is nice enough, though a lot of the city is difficult to travel to. But these kind of solutions are not sustainable or sensible. The solution is people not being able to buy in Dublin is not buying in Meath.

Just out of curiosity this morning I searched for 2+ bed properties in Dublin with max price of 250k. Myhome.ie returned 276 properties, mix of apartments & houses, some 3 beds, some with f&b gardens.

timmyntc

ec18 wrote: »

That's the point for your statement to be true both the above have to be. For example I'm a secretary for an accountant who's office is in Kilmainham therefore I should be able to buy a house in that area.

See how both things can't be true? Just because you work in an area or are from an area doesn't mean that you have a right/entitlement/option to buy a house there.

Theres a huge difference between buying in Kilmainham and buying in Meath.
Someone on average salary or higher should absolutely have some expectation of buying a house or apartment in Dublin. People earning below that amount should qualify for cost-rental or social housing, and people with no employment should get housed in less desirable/central areas - but thats a whole other discussion.

You can't seriously expect every household earning less than 100k to have to move to Kildare or Meath?