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My dog, my garden and neighbours cat

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  • 16-05-2021 10:55am
    #1
    Buddy Bubs
    Registered Users Posts: 3,562 ✭✭✭


    New neighbours moved in last few weeks, they brought a young cat with them, maybe halfway grown or whatever, I don't know much about how quickly cats grow. Anyway, there's plenty of cats around here and they steer well clear of my garden because my dogs absolutely hate them. Labradors, I believe the younger one would kill a cat if he ever got hold of one. Sweetest dogs you'll meet and play with kids all the time and any other dogs without even the slightest hint of aggression. Until a cat turns up.

    To the point, this new neighbours cat is either young and naive or stupid and keeps coming into the garden. Even after being fairly intensely chased out.
    There are birds often in my garden, dogs ignore them, but think that might be what attracts the cat! Dog nearly caught it the other day but it escaped through the railings, just about. I caught the end of the chase but I think the dog probably got hold of the tail slightly. So it was close.

    I spoke to the new neighbours and told them their cat was coming into my garden, ordinarily it wouldn't bother me I don't hate cats, but I told them my fears their cat could be killed and I don't want to see that. But I'm also not keeping the dogs inside or watching them while they are outside. They're a nice couple with a young kid so they're not unapproachable or anything but their reaction was that I shouldn't have dogs that are capable of killing a cat. And they'd look for medical expenses and any other kind of compensation of anything happened.

    Now this cat, like all cats will spend its time hunting mice and rats and is hanging around my garden because of birds I believe. So its a circle of life.

    If the dogs are out and the cat is free to roam, if anything happens on my property am I in any way to blame? I don't even want the idea I'd be a good citizen and offer to pay any expenses.


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    #2
    BobbyBolivia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭BobbyBolivia


    It's a complicated situation in terms of legality but one where you'll almost certainly come out badly if anything were to happen.

    Firstly, cats are protected animals under Irish law. Any act or any failure to act which harms or endangers any protected animal is against the law.

    In terms of dogs, any attack by a dog on a human or livestock is against the Control of Dogs Act, there only needs to be proof that the attack happened. Cats are not specifically mentioned here.

    The issue for you will certainly be that the dog would very likely be deemed as dangerous and not kept under proper control if they killed a cat. And it is very hard to disagree with that. Even if the cat was a complete stray and I saw a neighbours dog kill it I would be onto the warden immediately.

    The warden (and more) would get involved if the neighbours made an official complaint and the possible consequences could be:
    the Court may, in addition to any other penalty which it may impose, order that the dog be kept under proper control or be destroyed.
    Either do one of two things the next time you see the cat in or around the garden, squirt it with a water bottle or a spray bottle filled with water or (at a low intensity) spray it with the hose. The cat will soon get the message that your garden is not a nice place.


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    #3
    Mimon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭Mimon


    BobbyBolivia wrote: »
    It's a complicated situation in terms of legality but one where you'll almost certainly come out badly if anything were to happen.

    Firstly, cats are protected animals under Irish law. Any act or any failure to act which harms or endangers any protected animal is against the law.

    In terms of dogs, any attack by a dog on a human or livestock is against the Control of Dogs Act, there only needs to be proof that the attack happened. Cats are not specifically mentioned here.

    The issue for you will certainly be that the dog would very likely be deemed as dangerous and not kept under proper control if they killed a cat. And it is very hard to disagree with that. Even if the cat was a complete stray and I saw a neighbours dog kill it I would be onto the warden immediately.

    The warden (and more) would get involved if the neighbours made an official complaint and the possible consequences could be:


    Either do one of two things the next time you see the cat in or around the garden, squirt it with a water bottle or a spray bottle filled with water or (at a low intensity) spray it with the hose. The cat will soon get the message that your garden is not a nice place.

    Doesn't make sense at all that the OP could be responsible for the cat getting attacked in this case. It's the dog owners garden that the cat is coming into i.e. the dog is in a secure location on private property.

    A lot of dogs will have predatory instinct, it's normal. Hopefully the cat will wise up and stop going there.


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    #4
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,445 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    BobbyBolivia wrote: »
    It's a complicated situation in terms of legality but one where you'll almost certainly come out badly if anything were to happen.

    Firstly, cats are protected animals under Irish law. Any act or any failure to act which harms or endangers any protected animal is against the law.

    In terms of dogs, any attack by a dog on a human or livestock is against the Control of Dogs Act, there only needs to be proof that the attack happened. Cats are not specifically mentioned here.

    The issue for you will certainly be that the dog would very likely be deemed as dangerous and not kept under proper control if they killed a cat. And it is very hard to disagree with that. Even if the cat was a complete stray and I saw a neighbours dog kill it I would be onto the warden immediately.

    The warden (and more) would get involved if the neighbours made an official complaint and the possible consequences could be:


    Either do one of two things the next time you see the cat in or around the garden, squirt it with a water bottle or a spray bottle filled with water or (at a low intensity) spray it with the hose. The cat will soon get the message that your garden is not a nice place.

    But the dogs are in a secure location and under control, the cat is entering the dogs territory.


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    #5
    wench
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭wench


    The cat's owners have a responsibility to it's welfare, including keeping it properly contained.
    You can't just buy a cat, let it roam free, and make it's welfare a problem for everyone else in your neighbourhood.


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    #6
    BobbyBolivia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭BobbyBolivia


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    But the dogs are in a secure location and under control, the cat is entering the dogs territory.

    Hey it's my own garden and the dog can do what he likes there! This line of reasoning is absolute nonsense.

    If the dog kills the cat then I don't see how it justifiably won't be classed as dangerous by a warden or judge if needed be.

    If the dog somehow managed to get hold of a bat that went onto the property it would be the exact same thing. Or a red squirrel, or a brown or mountain hare. Just because the dog is on your property and another animal enters the property doesn't mean a bloody thing. All of those are protected or endangered species and if I saw a dog killing one of them then the warden would be contacted.


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    #7
    theteal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭theteal


    I would be absolutely shocked if the OP has any responsibility here. The dogs are secured in their own garden. The responsibility is on the cat owner surely (good luck with that, says I as a cat owner)


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    #8
    BobbyBolivia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭BobbyBolivia


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    But the dogs are in a secure location and under control, the cat is entering the dogs territory.


    The dog is clearly not under control if it is potentially killing protected animals.


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    #9
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    BobbyBolivia wrote: »
    Hey it's my own garden and the dog can do what he likes there! This line of reasoning is absolute nonsense.

    If the dog kills the cat then I don't see how it justifiably won't be classed as dangerous by a warden or judge if needed be.

    If the dog somehow managed to get hold of a bat that went onto the property it would be the exact same thing. Or a red squirrel, or a brown or mountain hare. Just because the dog is on your property and another animal enters the property doesn't mean a bloody thing. All of those are protected or endangered species and if I saw a dog killing one of them then the warden would be contacted.

    That sounds ridiculous. The OP has said the dog is a good animal and safe with children etc.
    If the cat ends up killed by the dog, which hopefully never happens, but if it does then because of your advice they should dispose of the cat's body quickly and not say anything, rather than risk their dog being put down.

    The people have been told not to let their cat into the dog's rightful space - that is all that can be done to protect the cat.

    I looked up a vets opinion -

    "When an otherwise friendly backyard dog attacks cats who enter their yards, predatory aggression is typically assumed. This type of attack is wholly within the normal context of a predator-prey relationship. Sad as this may be for the cat’s human family, this kind of behavior is considered natural and normal."


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    #10
    Cheshire Cat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,276 ✭✭✭Cheshire Cat


    As somebody has said before, cats are protected. But that means that it is the owner's responsibility to ensure that the cat is well cared for and not getting into danger. It's certainly not the responsibility of the neighbours to protect the cat.
    I love both cats and dogs, but ultimately the owners of the cat can't just shrug off their responsibility.

    https://www.petethevet.com/the-legal-status-of-cats-in-ireland-pete-the-vet-on-newstalks-pat-kenny-show/


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    #11
    The Continental Op
    Registered Users Posts: 6,402 ✭✭✭The Continental Op


    If someone was to open a book my money would be on the cat.

    I really have seen some nasty scars on dogs after they have pushed their luck with a cat.

    Now not all cats defend themselves against a dog but those that do normally win.

    Wake me up when it's all over.



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    #12
    BobbyBolivia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭BobbyBolivia


    isha wrote: »
    That sounds ridiculous. The OP has said the dog is a good animal and safe with children etc.
    If the cat ends up killed by the dog, which hopefully never happens, but if it does then because of your advice they should dispose of the cat's body quickly and not say anything, rather than risk their dog being put down.

    The people have been told not to let their cat into the dog's rightful space - that is all that can be done to protect the cat.

    I looked up a vets opinion -

    "When an otherwise friendly backyard dog attacks cats who enter their yards, predatory aggression is typically assumed. This type of attack is wholly within the normal context of a predator-prey relationship. Sad as this may be for the cat’s human family, this kind of behavior is considered natural and normal."

    Where is the vet from? A vets opinion is utterly meaningless if the vet isn't from Ireland, and even then I'm not sure that a vet's opinion is remotely relevent in the context of the control of dogs act 1986.

    Laws regarding cats differ wildly from country to country. In Australia for example the laws regarding cats are much different to here.

    As I have stated, in this country, they are a protected animal.

    Just like the other examples of animals I have given who could feasibly end up on a property where a dog is present, the dog does not have free reign to kill these animals. The dog would almost certainly be demanded to be kept under greater control by a warden (could mean an outdoor pen) - or far worse.

    It seems the majority of the comments here are people saying what they hope would happen.


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    #13
    cruizer101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    BobbyBolivia wrote: »
    The dog is clearly not under control if it is potentially killing protected animals.

    So what if the cat wandered into the OP's house?
    It is not unknown for cats to go into houses other than their own.
    At what point do you draw the line?

    If the neighbours want to protect their cat they should keep it in their house.


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    #14
    corollake35
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭corollake35


    BobbyBolivia wrote: »
    The dog is clearly not under control if it is potentially killing protected animals.

    You can no more take the predator out of the dog than the cat. Your logic is fairly one sided. The cat owner is responsible for the cat straying onto neighbours safe area for their pet dogs.


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    #15
    Magno_DT
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭Magno_DT


    BobbyBolivia wrote: »
    The dog is clearly not under control if it is potentially killing protected animals.

    Where do you draw a line there though? What about a very small garden? Or what about a cage? Or what about a big cage? If the cat managed to find it's way to any of those in then the dog owner is responsible? In my view if a dog is securely within the boundary walls of its owner then it is under control.


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    #16
    Mimon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭Mimon


    BobbyBolivia wrote: »
    The dog is clearly not under control if it is potentially killing protected animals.

    Ah here. The dog is in secure location, any animal with any sense their salt will realise not to come near.


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    #17
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    BobbyBolivia wrote: »
    Where is the vet from? A vets opinion is utterly meaningless if the vet isn't from Ireland, and even then I'm not sure that a vet's opinion is remotely relevent in the context of the control of dogs act 1986.

    Laws regarding cats differ wildly from country to country. In Australia for example the laws regarding cats are much different to here.

    As I have stated, in this country, they are a protected animal.

    Just like the other examples of animals I have given who could feasibly end up on a property where a dog is present, the dog does not have free reign to kill these animals. The dog would almost certainly be demanded to be kept under greater control by a warden (could mean an outdoor pen) - or far worse.

    It seems the majority of the comments here are people saying what they hope would happen.


    The point about the vet's opinion was not re local law - it was that dog's have an innate predatory instinct, which is considered normal.


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    #18
    BobbyBolivia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭BobbyBolivia


    Cheshire Cat wrote: »
    As somebody has said before, cats are protected. But that means that it is the owner's responsibility to ensure that the cat is well cared for and not getting into danger. It's certainly not the responsibility of the neighbours to protect the cat.
    I love both cats and dogs, but ultimately the owners of the cat can't just shrug off their responsibility.

    https://www.petethevet.com/the-legal-status-of-cats-in-ireland-pete-the-vet-on-newstalks-pat-kenny-show/

    Sure, the owner has a legal responsibility toward the care and welfare of the cat.

    However (and I don't know of any relevant case law) it is no secret that cats need outdoor time to protect from certain issues and ailments. They are natural outdoor animals. The neighbour could feasibly argue that it was in the best interest in the cats welfare to allow the cat access to the outdoors.

    Don't get me wrong, I think all cat owners should have a mandatory catio type structure before owning a cat. An enclosed space where the cat has access to the outdoors without accessing other areas where they might be a nuisance.

    However, there are a myriad of situations where a protected animal (not just cats, but hares and squirrels and more) can wander into a dogs property and I cannot see how the dog can be classified as under control if it is killing those animals. From my experience with wardens, I don't expect the warden would either.


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    #19
    Mimon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭Mimon


    BobbyBolivia wrote: »
    Where is the vet from? A vets opinion is utterly meaningless if the vet isn't from Ireland, and even then I'm not sure that a vet's opinion is remotely relevent in the context of the control of dogs act 1986.

    Laws regarding cats differ wildly from country to country. In Australia for example the laws regarding cats are much different to here.

    As I have stated, in this country, they are a protected animal.

    Just like the other examples of animals I have given who could feasibly end up on a property where a dog is present, the dog does not have free reign to kill these animals. The dog would almost certainly be demanded to be kept under greater control by a warden (could mean an outdoor pen) - or far worse.

    It seems the majority of the comments here are people saying what they hope would happen.

    Horrible accusation.


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    #20
    BobbyBolivia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭BobbyBolivia


    Mimon wrote: »
    Horrible accusation.


    No, the comment was based on the prevailing theme of commentary that the dog would be free from consequences and owners.

    Not that people hope that the dog would actually kill the cat. Nowhere have I claimed that anybody is wishing for that.

    Give over. There is only one of us talking sense in this thread, or with adequate knowledge of animal welfare and Irish animal laws and it certainly isn't you.


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    #21
    wench
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭wench


    My neighbours cat brings me a selection of small birds and animals it has killed. Should it also be put down?


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    #22
    Dr Turk Turkelton
    Registered Users Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭Dr Turk Turkelton


    BobbyBolivia wrote: »
    It's a complicated situation in terms of legality but one where you'll almost certainly come out badly if anything were to happen.

    Firstly, cats are protected animals under Irish law. Any act or any failure to act which harms or endangers any protected animal is against the law.

    In terms of dogs, any attack by a dog on a human or livestock is against the Control of Dogs Act, there only needs to be proof that the attack happened. Cats are not specifically mentioned here.

    The issue for you will certainly be that the dog would very likely be deemed as dangerous and not kept under proper control if they killed a cat. And it is very hard to disagree with that. Even if the cat was a complete stray and I saw a neighbours dog kill it I would be onto the warden immediately.

    The warden (and more) would get involved if the neighbours made an official complaint and the possible consequences could be:


    Either do one of two things the next time you see the cat in or around the garden, squirt it with a water bottle or a spray bottle filled with water or (at a low intensity) spray it with the hose. The cat will soon get the message that your garden is not a nice place.

    Are songbirds protected by law and their nests?
    If so could a case be taken against the cat owners for not keeping their dangerous animal under control and allowing it go on killing sprees daily and eating the eggs out of nests?


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    #23
    BobbyBolivia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭BobbyBolivia


    wench wrote: »
    My neighbours cat brings me a selection of small birds and animals it has killed. Should it also be put down?

    If the cat is killing birds which are protected species then it is certainly a problem yes and action may need to be taken with the appropriate authorites.

    The likes of woodmice are not a protected species so there would be no issue there.


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    #24
    POBox19
    Registered Users Posts: 663 ✭✭✭POBox19


    You know know more about your new neighbours now!
    The dogs were there first within their owners property. A cat arrives and decides to wander into the dogs space and gets chased out, cat learns just like the rest of the locals have.
    There is no court in the land that will entertain litigation that a cat got what's coming if it goes in there again. Nothing to worry about.


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    #25
    Mimon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭Mimon


    BobbyBolivia wrote: »
    No, the comment was based on the prevailing theme of commentary that the dog would be free from consequences and owners.

    Not that people hope that the dog would actually kill the cat. Nowhere have I claimed that anybody is wishing for that.

    Give over. There is only one of us talking sense in this thread, or with adequate knowledge of animal welfare and Irish animal laws and it certainly isn't you.

    You are not talking sense at all. From your posting you seem to have little understanding of animal behavior and are making up legal advice to suit your limited outlook.


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    #26
    BobbyBolivia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭BobbyBolivia


    Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »
    Are songbirds protected by law and their nests?
    If so could a case be taken against the cat owners for not keeping their dangerous animal under control and allowing it go on killing sprees daily and eating the eggs out of nests?


    If you have proof that cats are attacking protected species then it is certainly something which needs to be addressed.


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    #27
    BobbyBolivia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭BobbyBolivia


    Mimon wrote: »
    You are not talking sense at all. From your posting you seem to have little understanding of animal behavior and are making up legal advice to suit your limited outlook.

    Animal behaviour?

    Dogs like to run free. Natural animal behaviour. Are they allowed to? No.

    I have perfectly good understanding of the predatory instincts of cats and dogs, however neither should be entitled to act on those instincts at the expense of protected animals.


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    #28
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,735 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    isha wrote: »
    I looked up a vets opinion -

    "When an otherwise friendly backyard dog attacks cats who enter their yards, predatory aggression is typically assumed. This type of attack is wholly within the normal context of a predator-prey relationship. Sad as this may be for the cat’s human family, this kind of behavior is considered natural and normal."

    That's an American opinion, completely inappropriate for a European situation.
    BobbyBolivia wrote: »
    Laws regarding cats differ wildly from country to country. In Australia for example the laws regarding cats are much different to here.

    Indeed. Here in France, a cat is legally considered to be in its home territory (i.e. not straying, and the owner not subject to sanction) if it is within 1km of its registered address.
    isha wrote: »
    That sounds ridiculous. The OP has said the dog is a good animal and safe with children etc.

    There's another way to look at this: the full name of the breed in question is Labrador Retriever. The Retriever part is important, as these dogs were originally bred to fetch birds, rabbits and other animals that had been shot and bring them back without damaging them. Having a "soft mouth" was - and still is, for active hunters - an important part of the breed's characteristic.

    In the hunting community, a Labrador that killed a cat (or any similar-sized animal) would be considered to be a badly bred/trained dog, and not to be trusted. Unfortunately, going back to the American vet's opinion, no matter how "good and safe" he's been up till then, a dog that has rediscovered his "predator-prey" instincts may well try them out later on a child.


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    #29
    Deub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,298 ✭✭✭Deub


    BobbyBolivia wrote: »
    The dog is clearly not under control if it is potentially killing protected animals.

    But the cat hunting protected species in other people properties is clearly under control.


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    #30
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,190 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    If the cat goes into the neighbour's garden and is cornered by the dog, and the cat (as it very likely will) goes for the dog and gives it a nasty scratch on its nose, or damages an eye, who is responsible then?

    As has been said, BobbyBolivia is making up laws to suit their own opinion.

    For the record I am a cat owner.


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    #31
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    BobbyBolivia wrote: »
    The dog is clearly not under control if it is potentially killing protected animals.

    If a cat comes into my house through an open window and kills my gerbils that I let out of their cage, who is responsible?

    If my gerbils escape because I forgot to close the back door, they go next door and get killed by their cat, is that the same situation or is the cat any less to blame since my gerbils went into his territory?


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