My dog, my garden and neighbours cat

borderlinemeath

Neighbours beside me have cats, also ferals in the farm across the road. They cross our property a good bit and also sit beyond the fence taunting the dogs. My dogs hate them but have never, even in their younger, faster years have managed to catch one. And the best hunter caught a pheasant once:(.

OP, your dogs are secure on your property, you have nothing to worry about. Even if something were to happen to the neighbours cat, the onus was on them to look after it rather than letting it roam. I don't believe there is any legal comeback for a domestic pet attacking another, there is legal comeback for dogs roaming attacking livestock, or dogs attacking people. Sometimes there is a "gentlemens agreement" when your pet gets into a fight with another to pay the vet bills assuming you have admitted responsibility, but it's all hypothetical until something actually happens, which is unlikely. Cats are incredibly fast and defensive, particularly when cornered.

As one poster suggested, some cats wear bells to deter them from attacking birds, maybe a bell on your dog to alert the cat may give the cat a head start!

begbysback

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

I've a cat and my neighbour has dogs. My cat thinks it's smart enough to be in and out of their garden unscathed. I'm ready for the day that the cat get's caught and possibly killed. I won't fall out with the neighbours about it. It's just natural and unfortunate.

Never have I actually heard of a dog catching a cat and killing it, I’d say your cat is in more danger of running into another cat and fighting with it.

The DayDream

BobbyBolivia wrote: »

It's a complicated situation in terms of legality but one where you'll almost certainly come out badly if anything were to happen.

Firstly, cats are protected animals under Irish law. Any act or any failure to act which harms or endangers any protected animal is against the law.

In terms of dogs, any attack by a dog on a human or livestock is against the Control of Dogs Act, there only needs to be proof that the attack happened. Cats are not specifically mentioned here.

The issue for you will certainly be that the dog would very likely be deemed as dangerous and not kept under proper control if they killed a cat. And it is very hard to disagree with that. Even if the cat was a complete stray and I saw a neighbours dog kill it I would be onto the warden immediately.

The warden (and more) would get involved if the neighbours made an official complaint and the possible consequences could be:


Either do one of two things the next time you see the cat in or around the garden, squirt it with a water bottle or a spray bottle filled with water or (at a low intensity) spray it with the hose. The cat will soon get the message that your garden is not a nice place.

This is almost all nonsense and the last bit isnt good advice either.

You can't let your cat roam and expect that nothing will happen to it. If it goes into a garden, under a car, etc. that is all on the owner. Cats who roam get into fights all the time, who do they expect to sue then? And a cat bite has high rate of infection. My first day on the job at an animal shelter a cat was brought in had been shot by a crossbow.

Your neighbors need to realize there is a long list of dangers for a roaming cat from other cats to dogs to cruel people and either keep it in or accept the risk.

Another thing you can tell them is that it's actually more common for a dog to be scratched by a cat in these situations. Unless it's a pit bull or similar the cat usually wins these fights with a quick swipe of the claws. It happened to one of my own dogs. My gf let him out into the garden and we had a dog bed drying draped over a drying rack that a neighborhood cat had decided made a comfy hammock. My dog was unimpressed and charged at the cat, who didnt even run she just reared up and swiped him and he was lucky not to lose an eye it was only an inch away.

So you can advise them that it is actually them who need to stop the cat roaming or THEY are liable for any injuries to your dog. It probably wont catch the cat anyway though as the cat will learn quickly to stay away.

Also, when we squirted the neighbors cat with water they then complained to our landlord and said we were squirting their child with water so even though they were psychopaths making up lies it didnt matter I still had to deal with it so you might not want to do that.

Goose81

We have a cat who comes in our garden most days, none of us like cats but wouldn't wish one harm.

We let the dog out when the cats in the garden and let him chase it to put the cat off coming in, never actually thought about it but one day he will probably catch it and savage it. He's a jack Russell.

I have serious doubts about whether a Labrador would get near a cat, they are nowhere near agile enough though.

Regarding the law I would be pretty sure if your neighbours were stupid enough to initiate legal proceedings they would end up with the judge laughing at them and them having to pay all of your court costs as well as their own.

Who in their right mind would have any legal complaints if their cat ventured into private property because they let it lose and it was killed by another animal defending it's territory.

AUDI20

You must take all necessary steps to ensure that the cat is kept and treated in a manner which safeguards its health and welfare. You have to provide adequate food, water and shelter, and you must take precautions to protect the health of the cat
So if the neighbours allow their Cat to go into your garden where in could be attacked by your dog, then they are at fault for not taking proper precautions according to the law.

Knine

The DayDream wrote: »

Another thing you can tell them is that it's actually more common for a dog to be scratched by a cat in these situations. Unless it's a pit bull or similar the cat usually wins these fights with a quick swipe of the claws. .

Our large cat was killed by a dog smaller than a lab. By the time I got onto the scene, the damage was done. Not a mark on the dog. A determined dog will kill a cat.

My small terrier grabbed an unfortunate cat & the cat was very lucky that I was there. The cat had no chance to even swipe its claws. The OP is rightly worried that the cat will be hurt.

Buddy Bubs

Another neighbours cat met its demise yesterday, hit by a car. This cat has been around for years, Bella, the kids are devastated.

We have on street parking here and the cats are always under cars and chasing each other sometimes they bolt across the road, sometimes they go towards path. According to another neighbour this is what happened during the day yesterday. Not a busy road at all but I've seen the cats around here doing this for years I was wondering if one would ever get hit.

Reminds me of the late 80s and 90s where dogs were allowed roam freely, there were a few knocked down then too.

Piehead

Is the dog on the vicious breeds list? Would that make a diff?

volchitsa

Piehead wrote: »

Is the dog on the vicious breeds list? Would that make a diff?

Not when the dog is in its own garden and the cat comes into its territory. That would be ridiculous, whatever the breed.

knucklehead6

Piehead wrote: »

Is the dog on the vicious breeds list? Would that make a diff?

What vicious breeds list?

Piehead

knucklehead6 wrote: »

What vicious breeds list?

This one


https://www.corkcity.ie/en/council-services/services/dogs-animal-welfare/dangerous-dogs.html

knucklehead6

Piehead wrote: »

This one


https://www.corkcity.ie/en/council-services/services/dogs-animal-welfare/dangerous-dogs.html

So controlled breeds. Not vicious dogs.

blackbox

I live in an urban area and have a cat.

Several neighbouring dogs wander through my garden and my cat wanders into neighbour's gardens.

Apart from the poo, the dogs don't bother me.

I don't expect my cat to be killed in neighbour's gardens, but if he is I would have to accept that he travelled where he shouldn't have. He is more likely to be hit by a car.

On the other hand, I would expect a civilized dog owner to discourage it from attacking cats the same way I expect drivers to take reasonable precautions against running over cats.

Unfortunately some yobs will deliberately try to run over a cat.

CelticRambler

CelticRambler wrote: »

That's an American opinion, completely inappropriate for a European situation.

Indeed. Here in France, a cat is legally considered to be in its home territory (i.e. not straying, and the owner not subject to sanction) if it is within 1km of its registered address.

There's another way to look at this: the full name of the breed in question is Labrador Retriever. The Retriever part is important, as these dogs were originally bred to fetch birds, rabbits and other animals that had been shot and bring them back without damaging them. Having a "soft mouth" was - and still is, for active hunters - an important part of the breed's characteristic.

In the hunting community, a Labrador that killed a cat (or any similar-sized animal) would be considered to be a badly bred/trained dog, and not to be trusted. Unfortunately, going back to the American vet's opinion, no matter how "good and safe" he's been up till then, a dog that has rediscovered his "predator-prey" instincts may well try them out later on a child.

Absolute rubbish, all of it. From the insistence that dogs behave differently in the USA to the the scaremongering "think about the children" at the end, You're talking nonsense.

BobbyBolivia wrote: »

As OP requested. This is the legislation which will be relevant to your issue in the worst case scenario:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/act/15/enacted/en/print#sec11

Also relevant will be this:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1986/act/32/enacted/en/html

That's not what OP was asking for. They were looking for info on the protected nature of cats, not the legal status of dogs and exerting control over them. The only relevant part of those links which might apply here are:

21.—(1) The owner of a dog shall be liable in damages for damage caused in an attack on any person by the dog and for injury done by it to any livestock; and it shall not be necessary for the person seeking such damages to show a previous mischievous propensity in the dog, or the owner's knowledge of such previous propensity, or to show that such injury or damage was attributable to neglect on the part of the owner.

(2) Where livestock are injured by a dog on land on to which they had strayed, and either the dog belonged to the occupier of the land or its presence on the land was authorised by the occupier, a person shall not be liable under this section in respect of injury done to the livestock, unless the person caused the dog to attack the livestock.

Cats are not livestock, so this actually doesn't apply.

Piehead wrote: »

Is the dog on the vicious breeds list? Would that make a diff?

No such thing as a vicious breeds list.

BobbyBolivia wrote: »

Firstly, cats are protected animals under Irish law. Any act or any failure to act which harms or endangers any protected animal is against the law.

As mentioned by another poster, you are getting confused here with your use of the term "protected species". They are protected alright, but only in the sense that their owners have a duty of care to ensure they're not mistreated. You, as the owner of a cat, have a legal duty to feed and shelter it, as well as to take precautions to protect it from coming to harm.

They're not 'protected' like endangered species are, such as red squirrels, bats and the white rhino. And they're certainly not protected in the sense of "that dog killed a cat, he must be put down".
Owners also have a responsibility to ensure that you do not leave a cat unattended without making adequate provisions for its welfare. Cat owners would be more likely to be prosecuted for breaching that duty, than a dog owner would for their pet attacking an intruder into its territory where it is under control.

BobbyBolivia wrote: »

In terms of dogs, any attack by a dog on a human or livestock is against the Control of Dogs Act, there only needs to be proof that the attack happened. Cats are not specifically mentioned here.

Why is that, do you reckon? Why aren't they specifically mentioned there?

Because they don't qualify as livestock and aren't protected like you think they are

BobbyBolivia wrote: »

The issue for you will certainly be that the dog would very likely be deemed as dangerous and not kept under proper control if they killed a cat. And it is very hard to disagree with that.

It's quite easy to disagree with that. That's just hyperbolic, hand-wringing nonsense. A dog kept in the back garden, from where it cannot escape, is 100% under control.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that you're a cat owner and or cat lover. Your judgement is being clouded by what you wish the rules and regulations say versus what they actually say. Yes, its tragic and yes it is preventable......but preventable by the cat owners, not by the dog owners. I mean, if the dog isn't under control when he's locked up in his back garden, what do you suggest OP does? Muzzles them and ties them up? That is beyond unreasonable.

Here's a question for you, seeing as you're so up to speed with the laws surrounding cats and their protected status:
a) If you were driving down the road and you knocked down a dog and killed it, what does the law say you MUST do, not SHOULD do, but MUST do?
b) What if you did the same to a cat, what does the law say you MUST do?

boetstark

BobbyBolivia wrote: »

Hey it's my own garden and the dog can do what he likes there! This line of reasoning is absolute nonsense.

If the dog kills the cat then I don't see how it justifiably won't be classed as dangerous by a warden or judge if needed be.

If the dog somehow managed to get hold of a bat that went onto the property it would be the exact same thing. Or a red squirrel, or a brown or mountain hare. Just because the dog is on your property and another animal enters the property doesn't mean a bloody thing. All of those are protected or endangered species and if I saw a dog killing one of them then the warden would be contacted.

Balderdash.
We have a male rhodesian ridgeback.. Last year a so called door to door tradesman went into our back garden. Dog attacked and gave him a good bite.

The guy tried to claim from our house insurance with no success. Our dog is on the list of 7 breeds referred to in control of dogs and prescribed breeds.

The dog was deemed under control as he has in his own secure area. We had a beware of dog notice on the gate. The term our solicitor used was he entered without invite or permission.

volchitsa

boetstark wrote: »

Balderdash.
We have a male rhodesian ridgeback.. Last year a so called door to door tradesman went into our back garden. Dog attacked and gave him a good bite.

The guy tried to claim from our house insurance with no success. Our dog is on the list of 7 breeds referred to in control of dogs and prescribed breeds.

The dog was deemed under control as he has in his own secure area. We had a beware of dog notice on the gate. The term our solicitor used was he entered without invite or permission.

It makes sense to me that if the dog is in his own back garden that someone who comes in uninvited is at risk - that's what guard dogs are for after all.

The bit I don't quite get is about the sign. I've read that you shouldn't put up a "beware of dog" sign because if the dog ever then bites a visitor, that means that you knew it might bite and didn't take adequate measures.

Perhaps that doesn't apply to trespassers, but I thought it applied to postmen and so on, and therefore possibly to door to door salesmen. Or could he have rung/knocked on another door without encountering the dog?

boetstark

volchitsa wrote: »

It makes sense to me that if the dog is in his own back garden that someone who comes in uninvited is at risk - that's what guard dogs are for after all.

The bit I don't quite get is about the sign. I've read that you shouldn't put up a "beware of dog" sign because if the dog ever then bites a visitor, that means that you knew it might bite and didn't take adequate measures.

Perhaps that doesn't apply to trespassers, but I thought it applied to postmen and so on, and therefore possibly to door to door salesmen. Or could he have rung/knocked on another door without encountering the dog?

The gentleman that got bitten was a member of an ethnic minority.
I hear what you say re the sign but it put people on notice not to pass the gate. It was a locked gate but he stood on a wheelie bin to get over it.

boetstark

boetstark wrote: »

The gentleman that got bitten was a member of an ethnic minority.
I hear what you say re the sign but it put people on notice not to pass the gate. It was a locked gate but he stood on a wheelie bin to get over it.

LOL....I was wondering why a door-to-door salesman was in the back garden.......obviously making sure all your tools and bikes were safely secured. Hope your RR made sure he can't sit down on a saddle for a few weeks.

(Beautiful dogs, btw, have you a photo up on Boards anywhere?)

boetstark

[Deleted User] wrote: »

LOL....I was wondering why a door-to-door salesman was in the back garden.......obviously making sure all your tools and bikes were safely secured. Hope your RR made sure he can't sit down on a saddle for a few weeks.

(Beautiful dogs, btw, have you a photo up on Boards anywhere?)

He is now 12 1/2 years old but doing great. An amazing companion, we love him to bits.

Piehead

knucklehead6 wrote: »

So controlled breeds. Not vicious dogs.

“Dangerous Dogs” is how it’s termed

begbysback

I’ve seen enough cartoons to know how this pans out. The cat whistles to the dog out the back garden and when he’s looking the cat then taunts the dog, which then takes after the cat, who is around the corner at this point waiting until the dog appears, and then smacks him in the face with a telephone book as he turns the corner.


Actually this may have been a cat and a mouse, and the cat gets hit in the face, but the same principal applies.

James 007

Deleted User wrote: »

The most likely scenario in this situation:

Cat roams into dog's territory.

Dog captures cat.

Dog kills cat.

Dog owner buries / disposes of cat's body.

A few days later, Cat owner knocks and queries if dog owner has seen their missing cat around.

Dog owner "nope".

Im not advocating that this is what the dog owner should do. But cats disappear all the time. No one ends up in court over missing cats that have been allowed to roam.

Its not as easy as that, forensics and DNA profiling nowdays is so advanced:rolleyes:

Piehead

Piehead wrote: »

“Dangerous Dogs” is how it’s termed

Incorrect. That is how people refer to it colloquially, but the correct term is "restricted breeds". The relevant legislation is the control of dogs act, which revoked the previous legislation.

S.I. No. 295 of 1996 revoked the Control of Dogs (Restriction of Certain Dogs) (Amendment) Regulations, 1996 (my emphasis).

Piehead

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Incorrect. That is how people refer to it colloquially, but the correct term is "restricted breeds". The relevant legislation is the control of dogs act, which revoked the previous legislation.

S.I. No. 295 of 1996 revoked the Control of Dogs (Restriction of Certain Dogs) (Amendment) Regulations, 1996 (my emphasis).

Incorrect yourself

Check the link it’s an official council document

yuridwyer

I read the first post of this thread but not much else so apologies if this has been mentioned before. I can't believe the attitude of the cat owners. They are the irresponsible ones in this story. They can't expect the world to bend to their cats will and go against a dog's nature.

I have 3 cats and 1 dog. If my dog kills one of my cats I'll be blaming myself.

Vaccinated30

OP.
Take your dogs and attempt to put them into the neighbours garden. If their animal is allowed in yours, your animals should be allowed in theirs.

borderlinemeath

Piehead wrote: »

“Dangerous Dogs” is how it’s termed

There is no "dangerous dogs" act.
There's restricted breed legislation.

Plenty of people who don't know a whole pile about dogs do vaguely know that there's some legislation. These are the ones that refer to it as "dangerous dogs" because in the UK there's a "dangerous dogs" act, which is completely different to our legislation - they have a shorter list of breeds that need a court exemption for ownership. Over there and up in Northern Ireland GSDs, Rottweilers, Dobermans and Staffies and others on the list have zero restrictions.

So do expect to be schooled on why it's not vicious or dangerous dog act. There's a lot of differing legislation and words do matter.

cruizer101

Piehead wrote: »

Incorrect yourself

Check the link it’s an official council document

The irish statute book does not use any specific term to designate them
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/si/442/made/en/print

Galway council do similar
https://www.galwaycity.ie/dogs

Both Fingal and Dublin call them restricted breeds
https://www.dublincity.ie/residential/environment/animal-control/control-dogs
https://maps.fingalcoco.ie/environment/dogsandhorses/dogs/restricted-breeds/

There is no official term and it seems whoever wrote up the Cork page has a thing against dogs tbh by calling them dangerous.

Piehead

Piehead wrote: »

Incorrect yourself

Check the link it’s an official council document

What link?
What council?
What are you talking about? Nobody has provided any links or mentioned any council. If you want, you could look up the DCC website which specifically has a subheading called Restricted Breeds/Dublin City Council Tenancies. Nowhere on that page is the word "dangerous" used.

The legislation currently in place subsumed the previous legislation, which was Control of Dogs (Restriction of Certain Dogs) (Amendment) Regulations, 1996. The list is known as the restricted dogs list. The only part in the current legislation that refers to dangerous dogs, is Section 22. But that's talking about all dogs, not just the dogs on the list.

Piehead

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What link?
What council?
What are you talking about? Nobody has provided any links or mentioned any council. If you want, you could look up the DCC website which specifically has a subheading called Restricted Breeds/Dublin City Council Tenancies. Nowhere on that page is the word "dangerous" used.

The legislation currently in place subsumed the previous legislation, which was Control of Dogs (Restriction of Certain Dogs) (Amendment) Regulations, 1996. The list is known as the restricted dogs list. The only part in the current legislation that refers to dangerous dogs, is Section 22. But that's talking about all dogs, not just the dogs on the list.

Why are you lying? Just go back a page or two and you will see a link

Piehead wrote: »

This one


https://www.corkcity.ie/en/council-services/services/dogs-animal-welfare/dangerous-dogs.html

Apt username is apt