Is Gerry Adams the greatest leader in all of Irish history

Sunny Disposition · 16-05-2021 12:47am

A political genius, possibly, but a quite malign one.
If he had turned his energies to peaceful politics from the start we might have a UI by now.
Had huge energy, courage and dedication, but misused his talents largely. But at least he helped end the conflict, despite promoting it for so long.

Larbre34 · 16-05-2021 12:50am

Gerry Adams isn't even the greatest leader in his own house.

Bringing people to your way of thinking through the use of a private army, including one that dispensed rough justice to his own side, is no leadership at all.

Adams isn't fit to lace the boots of the genuine great leaders of Irish history from O'Connell to Hume.

bobbysands81 · 16-05-2021 12:52am

Was the main driver in convincing militant Republicanism to put down the gun and drive forward through entirely peaceful and Democratic means.

Incredibly he kept almost the entire Republican movement unified in doing so despite constant attack from a hostile media and unionism who were hell bent on a complete surrender from the movement rather than accepting that the guns were away forever.

Whilst I’m not arguing that he is the greatest leader in Irish history, there has not been anyone in Irish politics who has achieved anything of similar value in the last 50 or more years.

Drivelling idiots will of course disagree but that’s due to them being myopic and letting their own political prejudices cloud their judgement.

bobbysands81 · 16-05-2021 12:56am

blanch152 wrote: »

Mandela and Gandhi are the wrong comparisons.

Adams can compare with the likes of Pol Pot, Stalin, Kim Il Sung, Hugo Chavez, etc, who brought poverty, misery, violence, death and division to their countries. However, it is a pale comparison, yes, he managed to make West Belfast the most impoverished part of the British Isles, and he managed to oversee the killing, raping, mutilation of many thousands of people, but thankfully, the extent of it was contained somewhat. That should not be taken as downplaying the terrible impact he had on innocent victims of his political actions.

A man to be forever reviled. He is the coldest, strangest, scariest person I have ever met.

I pity you.

blanch152 · 16-05-2021 12:56am

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Was the main driver in convincing militant Republicanism to put down the gun and drive forward through entirely peaceful and Democratic means.

Incredibly he kept almost the entire Republican movement unified in doing so despite constant attack from a hostile media and unionism who were hell bent on a complete surrender from the movement rather than accepting that the guns were away forever.

Whilst I’m not arguing that he is the greatest leader in Irish history, there has not been anyone in Irish politics who has achieved anything of similar value in the last 50 or more years.

Drivelling idiots will of course disagree but that’s due to them being myopic and letting their own political prejudices cloud their judgement.

Any man who stops beating his wife and keeps the family together is deserving of equal praise.

bobbysands81 · 16-05-2021 1:00am

blanch152 wrote: »

Any man who stops beating his wife and keeps the family together is deserving of equal praise.

Ireland’s relationship with Britain is exactly that... we are the abused partner always seeking the love of the abusive partner... a love that is never going to come but we keep on hoping it will.

PommieBast · 16-05-2021 1:02am

Gerry Adams for all his faults was an ingredient in making NI a lot less bad a place than it was in the last century. Greatest Irish leader in history? Nope.

16-05-2021 1:09am

tdf7187 wrote: »

In terms of deathcount, Gerry is in the halfpenny place compared to Zanu FF/FG. The financial collapse killed hundreds due to suicide.

As for child abuse, the FF/FG run institutions facilitated mass child abuse on a monstrous scale over decades, as testified to in numerous investigations and inquiries.

And? He's no Hitler either, so what? Not being the worst doesn't make you the best!

Typical SF deflection.

16-05-2021 1:11am

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Ireland’s relationship with Britain is exactly that... we are the abused partner always seeking the love of the abusive partner... a love that is never going to come but we keep on hoping it will.

Would that be the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland now?

I’m from the Republic of Ireland. From where I stand, few give any thought to what happens in Northern Ireland these days (as long as they’ve stopped killing each other up there) and less give a damn what the neighbours next door have to say or might think.

I don’t think Northern Irish republicans/natonalists realise just how little the Republic of Ireland want to have to do with them, generally speaking. It’s like getting a call from your angry moany cousins saying they’re planning on stopping by: you’ll always find something to be busier with at the time they’d planned.

Adams, McGuinness and all the other ‘RA-heads, headcases one and all and not one of them a good Irishman. All the same kind of angry cousins with some notion their brand of lunacy will be welcomed.

16-05-2021 1:16am

The Golden Miller wrote: »

"Garda killers"? Who exactly were Garda killers? You see this thrown about alot

Eh? You can't be serious. The provos killed over 20 Gardai directly. Adams was their leader. He shielded them and actively campaigned for the killers of Gerry McCabe

16-05-2021 1:31am

A read of A Secret History of the IRA by Ed Moloney gives huge insights into the workings of the provos and Gerry Adams. There can be no doubt that the PIRA were compromised at the very highest levels by the time they called the ceasefire.

A murky man operating in very murky waters.

The Golden Miller · 16-05-2021 1:32am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Eh? You can't be serious. The provos killed over 20 Gardai directly. Adams was their leader. He shielded them and actively campaigned for the killers of Gerry McCabe

My father was a gaurd and regularly dealt with pIRA members, was stationed at various places on the border. Had two other immediate relations in the Gaurds too. Not one of them would suggest the pIRA were "Garda killers".

Several unfortunate events happened where Gardai were killed unintentionally or members acting independently of orders. But the organisation made a point of not targeting Gardai. Most Gardai stationed on the border during the bad times would testify to this Id believe, infact when caught, they were more respectful than anyone towards the Guards.

You can choose to believe that or not, but it's how it was. Calling them "Garda killers" is disingenuous in the extreme

flazio · 16-05-2021 1:35am

In reply to the OP.
Yeah, no. Just NO.

16-05-2021 1:39am

The Golden Miller wrote: »

My father was a gaurd and regularly dealt with pIRA members, was stationed at various places on the border. Had two other immediate relations in the Gaurds too. Not one of them would suggest the pIRA were "Garda killers".

Several unfortunate events happened where Gardai were killed unintentionally or members acting independently of orders. But the organisation made a point of not targeting Gardai. Most Gardai stationed on the border during the bad times would testify to this Id believe, infact when caught, they were more respectful than anyone towards the Guards.

You can choose to believe that or not, but it's how it was

The murderers of Jerry McCabe were given a standing ovation at the SF Ard Fheis. SF don't recognise the legitimacy of the Irish Republic; its constitution, or its Defence Forces.

The Golden Miller · 16-05-2021 1:42am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The murderers of Jerry McCabe were given a standing ovation at the SF Ard Fheis. SF don't recognise the legitimacy of the Irish Republic; its constitution, or its Defence Forces.

I'm aware they don't. Well they do the Irish Republic, not the Republic of Ireland.

That said, they didn't actively target the Gardai. Far more would of been killed had they been. PIRA members caught on the border would speak of the Gardai in favourable terms I'd believe, in how they were treated

blanch152 · 16-05-2021 1:56am

The Golden Miller wrote: »

My father was a gaurd and regularly dealt with pIRA members, was stationed at various places on the border. Had two other immediate relations in the Gaurds too. Not one of them would suggest the pIRA were "Garda killers".

Several unfortunate events happened where Gardai were killed unintentionally or members acting independently of orders. But the organisation made a point of not targeting Gardai. Most Gardai stationed on the border during the bad times would testify to this Id believe, infact when caught, they were more respectful than anyone towards the Guards.

You can choose to believe that or not, but it's how it was. Calling them "Garda killers" is disingenuous in the extreme

It is not a bit disingenuous.

Whether it is Garda Fallon or Garda McCabe, or all of the others inbetween, the PIRA chose to target gardai, chose to kill them, and did so without a second thought. In nearly every case, the PIRA and their political sleeveens in SF downplayed the Garda killings, sometimes blaming the Garda themselves.

The Golden Miller · 16-05-2021 1:59am

blanch152 wrote: »

It is not a bit disingenuous.

Whether it is Garda Fallon or Garda McCabe, or all of the others inbetween, the PIRA chose to target gardai, chose to kill them, and did so without a second thought. In nearly every case, the PIRA and their political sleeveens in SF downplayed the Garda killings, sometimes blaming the Garda themselves.

Why weren't far more killed then? They were unarmed sitting ducks on the border. I suppose your talking from experience though, ye?

neiphin · 16-05-2021 2:07am

corks finest wrote: »

FFS? He wouldn’t wipe Tom Barry’s ass

Tom Barry certainly didn’t agree with the conflict up there

Adams like Dev before him brought the gunmen around to the democratic principles (iam no fan of dev)

Adams possibly was one , Castro Washington Mao Mandela and Dev were gunmen

Barry (one of my hero’s) fought a different war

Adams probably like dev lives into old age and melt away but
“Raised n songs and stories, and hero’s of renown’

Watching Alex Ferguson the other day “ the good ones will find a way “
Adams too was a leader of men (and women)
And he has led his community in a different direction, when you have no options everything is on the table
He got his community to buy into a new departure

blanch152 · 16-05-2021 2:15am

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Why weren't far more killed then? They were unarmed sitting ducks on the border. I suppose your talking from experience though, ye?

Yes, I am talking from experience, but it is the experience of the victims of PIRA violence.

But in your mind, there is an acceptable level of Garda casualties, and it wasn't exceeded. In asking why far more weren't killed, you condone and accept those that were. I won't go there.

Any garda killing by the PIRA was wrong, absolutely wrong.

Barry904 · 16-05-2021 2:16am

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Why weren't far more killed then? They were unarmed sitting ducks on the border. I suppose your talking from experience though, ye?

The guards were far too slick and well organised for them.

zimmermania · 16-05-2021 2:24am

The Golden Miller wrote: »

My father was a gaurd and regularly dealt with pIRA members, was stationed at various places on the border. Had two other immediate relations in the Gaurds too. Not one of them would suggest the pIRA were "Garda killers".

Several unfortunate events happened where Gardai were killed unintentionally or members acting independently of orders. But the organisation made a point of not targeting Gardai. Most Gardai stationed on the border during the bad times would testify to this Id believe, infact when caught, they were more respectful than anyone towards the Guards.

You can choose to believe that or not, but it's how it was. Calling them "Garda killers" is disingenuous in the extreme

Of course they were garda killers,women killers,child killers,they killed innocent men,women and children for a cause that they abandoned,no 32 county republic,full recognition of the majority in Northern Ireland to retain their link to Britain.

Adams achieved very little,he was the Sinn Fein leader at a time when sex abuse was swept under the carpet and sex offenders were protected.

The Golden Miller · 16-05-2021 2:24am

Barry904 wrote: »

The guards were far too slick and well organised for them.

The Gaurds on the border dealt with them on a regular basis, and were very soft with them up until the hunger strikes, where there was a big clampdown from the top brass to appease Britain.

PIRA were more concerned with the north, not making enemies in the south. Gardai on a human level often had some sympathy for their cause, infact my father said a bigger problem was when they were forced to engage and run joint operations with the RUC, from the Gaurds point of view the ones upholding the state murdering Irish men and women.

The pIRA knew the Gaurds were just doing their job and there was a great mutual respect. I can guarantee you pIRA members would talk highly of the Gaurds in how they were treated, and the Guards in how IRA members behaved. There's former members of the Gaurds and pIRA who would be friends to this day. That's the reality of the relationship between the two

If a member of the Guards was ever killed you can guarantee there was huge internal repercussions. Why bite the hand that feeds, in the sense of those who treated you fairly when no one else did?

The Golden Miller · 16-05-2021 2:25am

zimmermania wrote: »

Of course they were garda killers,women killers,child killers,they killed innocent men,women and children for a cause that they abandoned,no 32 county republic,full recognition of the majority in Northern Ireland to retain their link to Britain.

Adams achieved very little,he was the Sinn Fein leader at a time when sex abuse was swept under the carpet and sex offenders were protected.

Ye ok

blanch152 · 16-05-2021 2:29am

zimmermania wrote: »

Of course they were garda killers,women killers,child killers,they killed innocent men,women and children for a cause that they abandoned,no 32 county republic,full recognition of the majority in Northern Ireland to retain their link to Britain.

Adams achieved very little,he was the Sinn Fein leader at a time when sex abuse was swept under the carpet and sex offenders were protected.

Nail on head with this post.

The long list of IRA victims is nauseating. Adams was the de facto leader of the infliction of misery. If he was dead, I would be wishing him to rot in hell.

Barry904 · 16-05-2021 2:42am

JayZeus wrote: »

Would that be the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland now?

I’m from the Republic of Ireland. From where I stand, few give any thought to what happens in Northern Ireland these days (as long as they’ve stopped killing each other up there) and less give a damn what the neighbours next door have to say or might think.

I don’t think Northern Irish republicans/natonalists realise just how little the Republic of Ireland want to have to do with them, generally speaking. It’s like getting a call from your angry moany cousins saying they’re planning on stopping by: you’ll always find something to be busier with at the time they’d planned.

Adams, McGuinness and all the other ‘RA-heads, headcases one and all and not one of them a good Irishman. All the same kind of angry cousins with some notion their brand of lunacy will be welcomed.

What are you on about, a vote in the South would pass easily no matter how much the partionists try to convince the gullible otherwise, the partionists and unionists are terrified of a referendum, there's a reason why Republicans are so badly trying to get a referendum and the partionists and unionists are trying their utmost to make sure it doesn't happen.

16-05-2021 2:48am

The Golden Miller wrote: »

My father was a gaurd and regularly dealt with pIRA members, was stationed at various places on the border. Had two other immediate relations in the Gaurds too. Not one of them would suggest the pIRA were "Garda killers".

Several unfortunate events happened where Gardai were killed unintentionally or members acting independently of orders. But the organisation made a point of not targeting Gardai. Most Gardai stationed on the border during the bad times would testify to this Id believe, infact when caught, they were more respectful than anyone towards the Guards.

You can choose to believe that or not, but it's how it was. Calling them "Garda killers" is disingenuous in the extreme

I'll stick to the facts thanks. Your father is a disgrace to the uniform if this is how he explained it to a child but I seriously doubt it and I seriously doubt you know any Gardai / Guards considering you can't even spell it.

Didn't kill Gardai? What complete and utter bull**** are you sprouting? They riddled the car in 1996! Gardai are dead, they were shot by provos. They are Garda killers. It's that simple and only a 14 year old singing rebel songs wouldn't get that.

Provo scum being polite means **** all when they were killing my colleagues and yes, I have dealt with them professionally. The fact that I was professional is in no way a reference to my personal opinion of the scum.

Now back to bed with ya, it's way past a child's bedtime

The Golden Miller · 16-05-2021 2:54am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I'll stick to the facts thanks. Your father is a disgrace to the uniform if this is how he thought his child but I seriously doubt it and I seriously doubt you know any Gardai / Guards considering you can't even spell it.

Didn't target Gardai? What complete and utter bull**** are you sprouting? They riddled the car in 1996!

Provo scum being polite means **** all when they were looking my colleagues and yes, I have dealt with them professionally. The next that I was professional in no way that's to my personal opinion of the scum.

Now back to bed with ya, it's way past a child's bedtime

A disgrace how? By dealing with the pIRA in a lawful and fair way?

Provo scum? Some were, joined for more sinister reasons. Most weren't at the start, decent normal people who families and livelihoods got destroyed.

16-05-2021 2:55am

The Golden Miller wrote: »

A disgrace how? By dealing with the pIRA in a lawful and fair way?

Provo scum? Some were, joined for more sinister reasons. Most weren't at the start, decent normal people who families and livelihoods got destroyed.

That's some classic SF reading right there.

The Golden Miller · 16-05-2021 3:00am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

That's some classic SF reading right there.

I'll take the word of someone who worked on the border for 30 years, to paraphrase his words, never once had to worry about being attacked by the pIRA when leaving the station.

These things are more nuanced and the Gardai had to have some relationship with the pIRA to deal with the situation in a tactful manner

Barry904 · 16-05-2021 3:00am

neiphin wrote: »

Tom Barry certainly didn’t agree with the conflict up there

Adams like Dev before him brought the gunmen around to the democratic principles (iam no fan of dev)

Adams possibly was one , Castro Washington Mao Mandela and Dev were gunmen

Barry (one of my hero’s) fought a different war

Adams probably like dev lives into old age and melt away but
“Raised n songs and stories, and hero’s of renown’

Watching Alex Ferguson the other day “ the good ones will find a way “
Adams too was a leader of men (and women)
And he has led his community in a different direction, when you have no options everything is on the table
He got his community to buy into a new departure

Tom Barry was a sectarian lunatic, a murderer of innocents, his unit under his command killed 16 civilians for alleged "informing" 9 of the 16 were protestants (a minority in west cork) he also burnt dozens of protestants out of their homes.

That's not how I actually think of Tom Barry I'm just using him as an example to what some people would say if it was of strategic interest to damage Sinn Fein or something.

The only difference is it's not politically strategic or worth anyones while to ramble on about all the horrible actions that him and the unit he commanded partook in.

Yes he did condemn the provos for any civilians that were killed but he also said "they have a perfect right to attack occupying forces" which is what most provo victims were.

Is Gerry Adams the greatest leader in all of Irish history

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