Civil Engineering - We need to talk about money

SteadyNed · 13-05-2020 9:49pm

And here we are again folks... Just as there might have been a glimpse of prosperity in the industry, bang. Usual story.

So how 'good' did salary get for people recently? Where do you see job security and salary levels going in the next few years?

Alkers · 14-05-2020 12:09pm

I have heard of paycuts already in the industry.

My own company (large multinational) have so far only introduced a requirement to have taken a week of this year's leave by the end of June, which is fair enough, but there is also talk of reviewing pension contributions.

I have been busier than ever since covid came along but haven't really paid attention to how the company is doing globally or here.

Edit: I think some grads may have been put on covid payments

onrail · 20-05-2020 4:01pm

Been tipping along ourselves too (multi-national consultancy), and no pay reductions yet apart from those at Associate-Director level and above.

That saying, most of our work has been with pre-existing contracts and frameworks - the pipeline isn't looking particularly promising.

TheBoyConor · 20-05-2020 4:07pm

Local Authorities. Executive Engineer grade. Reasonable enough money considering that the hours and general conditions are grand out.
Obviously jobs secure as anything but I do hear here on Boards that there are ráméisions about public sector pay cuts, a possible revisit to the likes of FEMPI.

Wildly Boaring · 20-05-2020 4:15pm

SteadyNed wrote: »

And here we are again folks... Just as there might have been a glimpse of prosperity in the industry, bang. Usual story.

So how 'good' did salary get for people recently? Where do you see job security and salary levels going in the next few years?

EI salary guide looks about right.
Maybe slightly under if you pushed for a rise early 2020
(I luckily moved in Feb with a good increase and a safer environment)

11-15 years exp = average 63k and top 75k
16-20 years exp = average 70k and top 81k

Salaries were definitely on the rise late 2019 and into 2020

onrail · 20-05-2020 4:16pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Local Authorities. Executive Engineer grade. Reasonable enough money considering that the hours and general conditions are grand out.
Obviously jobs secure as anything but I do hear here on Boards that there are ráméisions about public sector pay cuts, a possible revisit to the likes of FEMPI.

I turned down a Dublin based LA role recently, more because of personal circumstances than anything - might be a big regret depending on what happens with the private sector in the next few months!

TheBoyConor · 20-05-2020 4:20pm

Keep applying for panels and do be trying the OPW and Civil Service engineering roles too.
And ESB and ESBI are supposed to be great to work for for engineers and very good pay and very good benefits.

Alkers · 30-03-2021 2:11pm

I posted in the engineering jobs available thread but the courts service are looking for a Chartered Energy Engineer / Building Service Engineer with ten years experience, which they expect to be able to attract with a salary of 32k

https://www.courts.ie/careers

30-03-2021 2:20pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

............
And ESB and ESBI are supposed to be great to work for for engineers and very good pay and very good benefits.

Would they start folk half way up a payscale though?
Two colleagues worked for ESB as temp contractors a few years ago and reckoned it was a great gig for graduates but not so good for folk looking to jump in after a decade or so of working (unless you wanted a decent paycut)

This looks good for someone with 3 years exp for instance...... not so good if you've 10+
https://careers.esb.ie/job/One-Dublin-Airport-Central-D/522981802/
Civil and Structural Engineer
€40000 - €50000 per annum

Wildly Boaring · 30-03-2021 2:24pm

Alkers wrote: »

I posted in the engineering jobs available thread but the courts service are looking for a Chartered Energy Engineer / Building Service Engineer with ten years experience, which they expect to be able to attract with a salary of 32k

https://www.courts.ie/careers

Didn't get to look at it
But that's ridiculous

Hope to christ they get no applications

onrail · 30-03-2021 2:24pm

Augeo wrote: »

Would they start folk half way up a payscale though?
Two colleagues worked for ESB as temp contractors a few years ago and reckoned it was a great gig for graduates but not so good for folk looking to jump in after a decade or so of working (unless you wanted a decent paycut)

They had a few Civil/Structural jobs advertised recently min 7+ years experience with a range quoted of €65-75k. Would seem reasonably good even for 10 years experience.

Not sure what their pension and holiday benefits are like.

onrail · 30-03-2021 2:35pm

Alkers wrote: »

I posted in the engineering jobs available thread but the courts service are looking for a Chartered Energy Engineer / Building Service Engineer with ten years experience, which they expect to be able to attract with a salary of 32k

https://www.courts.ie/careers

If this was back in the depths of 2011, I'd be angry with the exploitation of it all, but in the current market, it's simply way off the mark

shesty · 30-03-2021 3:04pm

First to note, I am not condoning the salary that goes with that advertisement.

But this is where the public sector falls flat on its face. I think, from looking at that ad, that the courts fall under the public sector essentially. So I am guessing they have to start anyone new they bring in on the lowest rung of the scale. Their hands are tied, I would suspect. Never mind what they actually need, they aren't allowed to pay them a salary commensurate with the qualifications of the person they require.I've experienced this myself, as have my immediate family, several times since 2011, and it's not confined to engineering. One family member has 2 scientific degrees and took a role a few years ago with the pharmaceutical regulatory body also starting at 32k. She is beyond over-qualified and experienced for it but she wanted to try to change the direction of her career away from community pharmacy. Another family member had the experience as a manager, when a team member with a lot of engineering experience had to start at 32k. The only way he managed to get his salary increased was by having a year long row with the Dept in question to count previous contract experience he had with one of the Councils, as being steps on the public sector scale, so they would move him up to say increment 4, instead of being on the bottom.Experienced it myself, having to take a job back in 2011 starting at 28k - they got a full team of engineers/scientists in one particular area, all with 5-10 years experience recruited in at the same time then, all started at 28k because there were no other jobs. We had all left by the time 2015 came around.

I am sure there is some reason for it but I really don't understand how they expect to attract decent staff with that rule.

Wildly Boaring · 30-03-2021 3:10pm

There are different grades they can hire at.
For example the councils have
Assistant Engineer
Exec Engineer
Senior Exec Engineer
Senior Engineer

With rates associated with the level.
Exec goes 45k to 65k
Senior Exec is about 60k to 90k

Surely the courts could have found the corresponding level in another area

shesty · 30-03-2021 3:16pm

From my experience, it is probably best off not to try to understand it :rolleyes: It could well just be a case of someone saying well we haven't got a similar role in here anywhere, so we will just go at this level in this case.Or else they were told by DEPR what to advertise the role at. They don't seem to actually match the qualifications and experience to what they are willing to pay at all. Just fit the role into a box that is "normal" to their part of the public sector, and off they go.

For example the role I took in 2011 was an "Analyst" role. Yet they were specifically looking for engineers/scientists/"technical" people with a minimum of 5 years of experience and with at least a 2.1 degree to fill these roles.The equivalent executive engineer etc. roles just don't exist in the organisation I went into and it just wasn't thought of to look across the wider PS and consider it.

As I said, not saying it's right, just saying there is really no way of understanding it.

littlemissfraze · 30-03-2021 3:18pm

It's not a public service peculiarity. The Department of Education also have an advertisement up for a Building Services Engineer. Minimum 5 years experience and chartered required, salary starting at €72,758.
That is a fair salary for a chartered engineer with 5+ years experience imo.

The courts service advertisement is a joke. It may have such stringent requirements if the position is already earmarked for someone already working in the civil service who has the years experience and is chartered and is on a higher point on the scale already.

shesty · 30-03-2021 3:19pm

Fair enough. I wasn't sure where the Courts fell in regards to the public sector.

Good luck to them with that so.:D:D

littlemissfraze · 30-03-2021 3:48pm

I have emailed careers @ courts.ie politely enquiring if they have made an error or if they view an entry level grade (Grade III Engineer) as appropriate for someone who is a chartered engineer with 10 years experience.

I would encourage others to similar.

30-03-2021 7:02pm

littlemissfraze wrote: »

I have emailed careers @ courts.ie politely enquiring if they have made an error or if they view an entry level grade (Grade III Engineer) as appropriate for someone who is a chartered engineer with 10 years experience.

I would encourage others to similar.

What a good idea, email sent.

Here is an extract from Engineers Ireland salary survey for 2019:

Salary trends

Engineers in the first ten years of their career received a 5% pay boost in the past year, worth approximately €2,000. A graduate engineer (1-2 years of experience) now earns €33,750, an increase of 21% over the past five years.

08-04-2021 12:59pm

So today I recieved a reply to my email. It reads:

Hi 2011
Thank you for your feedback.

The competition is on hold at the minute as we review the salary.

Kind regards,

XXXXXXX

Courts Serivce Careers
Human Resources

Alkers · 08-04-2021 3:44pm

2011 wrote: »

So today I recieved a reply to my email. It reads:

Was just about to post that I'd received the same.

littlemissfraze · 09-04-2021 8:53am

I received the same. Looks like it was well worth emailing them.

09-04-2021 1:04pm

littlemissfraze wrote: »

I received the same. Looks like it was well worth emailing them.

Yes, maybe this should happen more often

onrail · 14-05-2021 9:08am

What sort of salary can an experienced Civil/Structural/Geotech Engineer expect from a consultancy role these days? Chartered and somewhere around senior/principal level?

I've been away from that side of the industry for a quite a while and pondering a return.

Alkers · 14-05-2021 9:23am

onrail wrote: »

What sort of salary can an experienced Civil/Structural/Geotech Engineer expect from a consultancy role these days? Chartered and somewhere around senior/principal level?

I've been away from that side of the industry for a quite a while and pondering a return.

Varies massively and a lot of consultancies are very slow to advertise salaries.

Pre-Covid, I would have said you could be able to manage 75k with the right company but although I haven't experienced or heard of any slowdown in work, I've definitely seen a slow-down in recruitment.

We had our pension contributions suspended for 6 months, I've heard of other consultancy companies who took pay cuts etc so it might be a bit tougher to get a role currently.

I wouldn't consider less than 60k anyway.

onrail · 14-05-2021 9:44am

Alkers wrote: »

Varies massively and a lot of consultancies are very slow to advertise salaries.

Pre-Covid, I would have said you could be able to manage 75k with the right company but although I haven't experienced or heard of any slowdown in work, I've definitely seen a slow-down in recruitment.

We had our pension contributions suspended for 6 months, I've heard of other consultancy companies who took pay cuts etc so it might be a bit tougher to get a role currently.

I wouldn't consider less than 60k anyway.

Cheers. Any indications of what working arrangements are going to be like post-Covid? Will WFH become more the norm rather than the exception?

Wildly Boaring · 14-05-2021 9:46am

Find the EI survey good

To counter the above, I'm finding the opposite. There is massive churn the last month or so. Big money offers all of a sudden

Companies do have cashflow issues (hence pension stoppage etc) but the short term outlook is very positive and staff retention is difficult

Wildly Boaring · 14-05-2021 11:34am

To add to this.
Just had my third phonecall from a recruiter this week
DSR for a major project.

Other 2. PM for consultant. SPM for utility via consultant.

We're hiring, but more fitout type consultant side.

Major churn.

14-05-2021 11:51am

Manufacturing sector wouldn't be just civil eng though surely?
If at all.

Wildly Boaring · 14-05-2021 11:53am

Onrail was looking civil consultant situation
Mine are all civil/structural offers

Whatcar212 · 14-05-2021 12:00pm

royaler83 wrote: »

Chartered, 10 years exp. medium-large company.

This exactly sums up a family member of mine. He is on 55K

One of the problems in Ireland is the attitude of not talking to each other about salary.

If everyone communicated and knew what everyone else was making then it empowers everyone when it comes to salary negotiation.

14-05-2021 12:03pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Onrail was looking civil consultant situation
Mine are all civil/structural offers

what is "Big money offers all of a sudden"

Wildly Boaring · 14-05-2021 1:07pm

Augeo wrote: »

what is "Big money offers all of a sudden"

Since the phased reopening there's been a marked increase in the money on offer.

For example a PM role consultant last September approx 75k. Friend just went to them for 85k

Senior engineer (building) 75k
Civil foreman 80k

There have been some fairly serious offers around that intel job. Day rate coming in at about 100k

H&S lead on major build
Was low 70s 18months ago over 90k.

Appreciate a lot are in the building side but a marked increase over the money from 18 and 12 months ago

14-05-2021 1:10pm

Consultant and the intel gigs are basically fixed term contracts?

Wildly Boaring · 14-05-2021 1:47pm

The consultant PM was a full time contract

The H&S lead is a fixed term (project specific)

The intel at 100k is day rate, could end in the morning, but considering the project is to run another couple of years.....

Wildly Boaring · 14-05-2021 1:50pm

Whatcar212 wrote: »

One of the problems in Ireland is the attitude of not talking to each other about salary.

If everyone communicated and knew what everyone else was making then it empowers everyone when it comes to salary negotiation.

Completely agree
I've a core of good mates in the industry and we openly discuss salary, it has stood to us down the years.
Unfortunately only 3 of us still work in the private sector.
The rest of them are public sector now, 3 or 4 only in the last 18 months (they were all heading for 40)

14-05-2021 1:57pm

There must be decent supply of interested parties that's keeping a lid on things still. €85k to PM anything major isn't wonderful remuneration, they'll get their pound of flesh and more for that.

Wildly Boaring · 14-05-2021 2:01pm

Lot of these firms, say Bechtel and Mace, have invented a Senior PM role that I really hadn't seen too often.
These seem to actually be the PM.
For instance the role above is reporting to a SPM. SPM be 95 hopefully

14-05-2021 2:20pm

The SPM would likely have a few PMs reporting to them, each PM with an actual project perhaps and the SPM with a portfolio.

SPM no doubt a handier gig as they don't have to deal (much) with the sh1t shovelling type stuff that PMs have to do whilst also dealing with the SPM :pac:

Alkers · 14-05-2021 2:41pm

onrail wrote: »

Cheers. Any indications of what working arrangements are going to be like post-Covid? Will WFH become more the norm rather than the exception?

Completely dependants on the company, my own company are happy with WFH but the company I worded for before are eager to get everyone back to the office.

Remember also, there is the option now where you can request to WFH partially and your employer will have to set out why you can't do your role remotely.

Alkers · 14-05-2021 2:43pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Find the EI survey good

To counter the above, I'm finding the opposite. There is massive churn the last month or so. Big money offers all of a sudden

Companies do have cashflow issues (hence pension stoppage etc) but the short term outlook is very positive and staff retention is difficult

That's good, I haven't been keeping my ear to the ground as I'm relatively specialised but good that things are picking up. It was quite frustrating to be busy as ever but companies moaning about wages etc

Alkers · 14-05-2021 2:45pm

Whatcar212 wrote: »

This exactly sums up a family member of mine. He is on 55K

One of the problems in Ireland is the attitude of not talking to each other about salary.

If everyone communicated and knew what everyone else was making then it empowers everyone when it comes to salary negotiation.

He is being pretty badly shafted there, he should shop around asap.

Whatcar212 · 14-05-2021 2:53pm

Alkers wrote: »

He is being pretty badly shafted there, he should shop around asap.

Interesting, I'll put this to him and see what he says.

What would be the expectation for someone of that level? Given he has 10 years experience and is chartered with ICE.

14-05-2021 3:39pm

It's not really black and white.......... if he's on €55k and the location suits and he's not doing much over 40 hours/week that might well be preferable to getting €65k somewhere else where the above 40 hours/week expectation is significantly more.

All considered though €55k isn't great for his experience IMO.

Alkers · 14-05-2021 6:21pm

Augeo wrote: »

It's not really black and white.......... if he's on €55k and the location suits and he's not doing much over 40 hours/week that might well be preferable to getting €65k somewhere else where the above 40 hours/week expectation is significantly more.

All considered though €55k isn't great for his experience IMO.

He's still underpaid, the company don't factor in how close he lives to the office on their salary calculations.

The only thing is, as its hard enough for us to know well we're being paid ATM, it's also quite difficult for companies to keep tab as to how well they stack up.

I know when I got an much better offer and moved jobs, many of my previous peers got a decent increase

14-05-2021 6:40pm

Alkers wrote: »

He's still underpaid, the company don't factor in how close he lives to the office on their salary calculations.

....

Indeed, I did say .....

All considered though €55k isn't great for his experience IMO.

shesty · 17-05-2021 10:24am

Clearly I'm underpaid going by the comments above, but then I'm balancing that against short commute, a company with great flexibility and other benefits like a good pension set up and annual leave and that.For the time of life that I'm at with small kids etc., I'm going to stick with it. Not much choice really.

As regards the future for WFH for us, they are looking at an entitlement of a maximum of 3 days per week from home for everybody. Now the way our place is set up, we are spread across a few locations, so it does suit in a way. How the IT systems in the office, or the desk set-up will work though, I'm not sure.

17-05-2021 10:28am

shesty wrote: »

Clearly I'm underpaid going by the comments above, but then I'm balancing that against short commute, a company with great flexibility and other benefits like a good pension set up and annual leave and that................

All the things you list are significant IMO.
€10k extra salary is less than €5k/extra into the pocket ............ is €100 ish/week worth 2 hours extra in the car etc etc etc

And I'm fond of my few €.

shesty · 18-05-2021 3:43pm

Exactly, you do come to realise it's not just all about the gross amount you get paid.
Obviously - within reason, now.

Alkers · 18-06-2021 4:24pm

Alkers wrote: »

I posted in the engineering jobs available thread but the courts service are looking for a Chartered Energy Engineer / Building Service Engineer with ten years experience, which they expect to be able to attract with a salary of 32k

https://www.courts.ie/careers

This has been posted again wit hthe exact same requirements, except that 10 year's experience has been reduced to 6. Still looking for someone Chartered for 32k

https://www.courts.ie/acc/alfresco/405d88d9-ab5c-4bc9-8d0a-1baaaad7111b/Sustainability%20Unit%20Court%20Service%20Booklet%20FINAL%20for%20dates%20%5B2%5D.doc/file#view=fitH

Civil Engineering - We need to talk about money

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