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Civil Engineering - We need to talk about money

SteadyNed

Folks,
I’m 5 years working as a Civil/Geotechnical Engineer in a consultancy environment in Ireland – not yet chartered, but planning to be within 6 months.
We need to open a discussion about the White Elephant in the Civil Engineering profession – money. Having worked for 5 years in the industry, I have a full appreciation of pay scales in the profession, and frankly, it’s terrible.

We've all had discussions with friends who are solicitors, accountants etc, (careers which I would see as having similar entry requirements, attributes, demands and working hours) it becomes clear that pay comparisons are shocking. We’re talking about earning 30-50% less once you’ve exited the initial/graduate phases of employment, and the gap widens significantly with experience.

So – what are the solutions? Are there any or is the profession simply doomed to poor pay? Pay levels for engineers outside the UK and Ireland are reasonable - is it a supply/demand issue on our shores?

Changing professions would break my heart, but if I ever want to be a home owner, and make a comfortable life, it may be necessary.

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Eng86

engineerfear1 wrote: »

I've checked out the Hays salary guide for 2018 and they are estimating €40-50k for a Senior Design Engineer with 6-9 years experience, and that's throughout the country. That's a good bit different to the €49k that was mentioned earlier for someone with 5 years experience.

Are these salary guides anyway accurate?

Do you have a copy of the 2018 Hays Salary Guide?

Dardania

EI's Engineering 2018 report is out: http://www.engineersireland.ie/EngineersIreland/media/SiteMedia/communications/publications/Engineering-2018-Report.pdf
On page 8 it has a table of salaries based on years working

Dunphus

Dardania wrote: »

EI's Engineering 2018 report is out: http://www.engineersireland.ie/EngineersIreland/media/SiteMedia/communications/publications/Engineering-2018-Report.pdf
On page 8 it has a table of salaries based on years working

That report wasn't particularly informative with regard to salary but watch this space:

Note on Page 10

A full Engineers Ireland Salary Survey 2018 report is available to Engineers Ireland members and can
be downloaded from the members’ area of www.engineersireland.ie. This report includes detailed
analysis of salaries and other benefits (pensions, bonuses etc.) according to engineering discipline,
employment sector and much more.

That salary survey isn't available to me in the members area yet but hopefully they put it up shortly

matthew1998

First year un-denominated engineering student in NUIG. I'm torn between civil, mechanical and energy systems. I'm hoping this 2018 salary report shines some light on my situation. (I know money isn't everything, but it definitely a deciding factor).

As a matter of interest, what was civil engineering salaries like in 2007 (the glory years

) ?

Dardania

matthew1998 wrote: »

First year un-denominated engineering student in NUIG. I'm torn between civil, mechanical and energy systems. I'm hoping this 2018 salary report shines some light on my situation. (I know money isn't everything, but it definitely a deciding factor).

As a matter of interest, what was civil engineering salaries like in 2007 (the glory years ) ?

You’ve organised them lowest to highest paid

matthew1998

Dardania wrote: »

You’ve organised them lowest to highest paid

I've also organised them with the coolest first

Energy Systems seems interesting. A combination of Civil, Mech and Electrical.
Anyways I wont stray off topic...:D

Civil still seems to have a lot going for it. We had a guest lecturer saying Irish Water is investing 16 billion into water infrastructure. Perhaps water engineering will see a spike in demand and salary?

[Deleted User]

If you have the aptitude for it mechanical is the best of the 3 qualification wise IMO.... it's not very subjective though.

Civil has and will always be subject to boom and bust cycles.

Mechanical opens so many doors and moving industry in the future is easier.

Energy systems might be a combination of civil, mech and electrical stuff but you'd be limited enough imo ..... a qualified mechanical or electrical eng could get into an energy systems type gig as a graduate or later down the line.

An energy systems engineer won't have as much flexibility.

If you can (aptitude, interest and want to) go the mech route.

matthew1998

Augeo wrote: »

If you can (aptitude, interest and want to) go the mech route.

Yeah, but I think I would be better at/enjoy Civil more. Mech has all the money and opportunities, but looking at the following years modules in each field,civil looks more interesting. Hard to know though.

Was just looking at some salary surveys and seen 2007 one. Civil engineers were €60-€80k while mech was about €15k lower.

source: https://www.brightwater.ie/docs/default-source/surveys/salary-survey/previous-years/salary-survey-2007.pdf?sfvrsn=4 (pg17)

Would be interesting if Civil rose to those crazy levels again

[Deleted User]

matthew1998 wrote: »

Yeah, but I think I would be better at/enjoy Civil more. Mech has all the money and opportunities, but looking at the following years modules in each field,civil looks more interesting. Hard to know though.

Was just looking at some salary surveys and seen 2007 one. Civil engineers were €60-€80k while mech was about €15k lower.

source: https://www.brightwater.ie/docs/default-source/surveys/salary-survey/previous-years/salary-survey-2007.pdf?sfvrsn=4 (pg17)

Would be interesting if Civil rose to those crazy levels again

Those salary surveys are good for a laugh really .... you can see the madness on the following 3

Newly Qualified Accountant 50,000 - 55,000
Financial Accountant 50,000 - 55,000
Senior Fund Accountant (>3 years’ experience) 35,000 - 45,000

Regarding engineering ...."Salaries in the Engineering arena are relatively stable, with quite standardised rates across the various sectors" :rolleyes:

Civil Engineer 60,000 - 80,000 .... so civil eng started on €60k in 2007, nope, that'd be lads with 5/10 years experience

Also there's a mix of contract and permanent roles in the figures

Commissioning Engineer 45,000 - 60,000 ..... I was on €38/hour with little previous experience in 2007 as a commissioning & validation engineer on contract..... they actually have this down for that .... Validation Engineer (1-3 years’ experience) 31,000 - 42,000 .....

It's a survey from Brightwater ..... I'll say no more.

Dardania

matthew1998 wrote: »

Augeo wrote: »

If you can (aptitude, interest and want to) go the mech route.

Yeah, but I think I would be better at/enjoy Civil more. Mech has all the money and opportunities, but looking at the following years modules in each field,civil looks more interesting. Hard to know though.

Was just looking at some salary surveys and seen 2007 one. Civil engineers were €60-€80k while mech was about €15k lower.

source: https://www.brightwater.ie/docs/default-source/surveys/salary-survey/previous-years/salary-survey-2007.pdf?sfvrsn=4 (pg17)

Would be interesting if Civil rose to those crazy levels again

It sounds like you had a very convincing talk from a semi-state representative. Many engineers that work in the private sector dismiss such semi-states for not paying well. Precisely as Augeo says, civil engineers are subject to boom and bust of finance availability. So if you want stay in Ireland, with our current and foreseeable political masters, your wage will be subject to the same ups and down.
You can of course travel to earn more - it's not for everyone but at some point when you're with a family, reasonable wages are valued more, than your job satisfaction in the short term...
So do what you want (you will anyway) but bear in mind civil engineers are one of the lower remunerated engineers, so try to plan for future flexibility of employment.

Edit: I've been thinking about this for a few months, as to why I reckon civil is paid less than mech or systems etc. And my theory is, in addition to the nature of the work being cyclical, with civil, you solve the problem at design stage, practically completely. All the contractor needs to do is implement your design exactly as in the drawing.
Whereas with anything with a system element, anything active, like mechanical or energy systems, or electrical or instrumentation & controls, it is best to have the designer for commissioning stage too - unless your design is 100% the same in practice as what the contractor built last time, you're needed. Systems are fickle to get working well - that is how you increase your value.

[Deleted User]

Dardania wrote: »

...... like mechanical or energy systems, or electrical or instrumentation & controls, it is best to have the designer for commissioning stage too - unless your design is 100% the same in practice as what the contractor built last time, you're needed. Systems are fickle to get working well - that is how you increase your value.

Nail on head.
In the med device game (high volume and not short of bean counters) I've worked on projects where the project eng was effectively overseeing the design (bespoke stuff from specialist manufacturers) and would then also oversee the install and perform the commissioning role.

In pharma/bio pharma (you'd not find many bean counters on capital projects to be fair) the commissioning folk are hired shortly before FAT but the design guy works with them even though the design element is finished.

But in both example the design guy is needed to the end.

Lots of design guys wouldn't fancy taking on the FAT and the commissioning gig and loads of commissioning guys wouldn't fancy taking on a design role.

A guy I worked with had a similar theory, he reckoned the closer you are to the end / to delivery the more crucially you are deemed to be. I dunno, I know lots of p1ss poor commissioning folk and the design folk the likes the big 2 (I won't name them) employ are often worse than the worst.

Eng86

The new Engineers Ireland Salary survey is online now on the website.

matthew1998

Interesting results. Civil seems very close to everything else.

[Deleted User]

matthew1998 wrote: »

Interesting results. Civil seems very close to everything else.

Have you seen anyone post in this topic " Civil Engineering - We need to talk about money" suggesting that the remuneration for civil is very close to everything else?
That's a serious question btw that I reckon you should consider as you seem to see wages etc as quite a significant factor in the choice you are making

matthew1998

Augeo wrote: »

I haven't read the entire thread, so please enlighten me if you're up to date on the 13 pages :rolleyes: . Money is a factor for me, but no the be all and end all.

In fact, now that I've seen all engineering disciplines are very close in terms of wages money won't be a factor at all.

[Deleted User]

matthew1998 wrote: »

I haven't read the entire thread, so please enlighten me if you're up to date on the 13 pages :rolleyes: . Money is a factor for me, but no the be all and end all.

It might be worth your while

You seem slow to be enlightened actually.

matthew1998 wrote: »

In fact, now that I've seen all engineering disciplines are very close in terms of wages money won't be a factor at all.

They're not.

Civil is not well paid compared to mechanical or electrical.

Eng Ireland survey is just that, a survey and it's as flawed as any other like the brighwater rubbish posted recently.

Dardania

Augeo wrote: »

matthew1998 wrote: »

I haven't read the entire thread, so please enlighten me if you're up to date on the 13 pages :rolleyes: . Money is a factor for me, but no the be all and end all.

It might be worth your while
You seem slow to be enlightened actually.

matthew1998 wrote: »

In fact, now that I've seen all engineering disciplines are very close in terms of wages money won't be a factor at all.

They're not.

Civil is not well paid compared to mechanical or electrical.

Eng Ireland survey is just that, a survey and it's as flawed as any other like the brighwater rubbish posted recently.

Agreed - it's a moment in time - the numbers in the depth of the recession were a different story
Matthew1998, as you're firm your choice of major/specialisation choice bearing in mind this survey, it sounds like civil might be where your passion is, so go for it. Just remember transferable skills if you need to earn more e.g. a lot of civil engineers skill up to be project managers quite sucessfully

matthew1998

Thanks for the insight Guys. I shall ruminate you're words of wisdom.

Eng86

My advice to anyone in college etc looking at engineering. Pick the field you want to do, if you have an interest in what your doing you will have a better chance of getting good at it. Being good at the job is probably one of the more important things when it comes to getting a good salary. You dont want to get stuck doing something you've no interest in either.

Hooks Golf Handicap

Eng86 wrote: »

The new Engineers Ireland Salary survey is online now on the website.

Anyone care to throw up an external link for a non-member please

SteadyNed

And here we are again folks... Just as there might have been a glimpse of prosperity in the industry, bang. Usual story.

So how 'good' did salary get for people recently? Where do you see job security and salary levels going in the next few years?

Alkers

I have heard of paycuts already in the industry.

My own company (large multinational) have so far only introduced a requirement to have taken a week of this year's leave by the end of June, which is fair enough, but there is also talk of reviewing pension contributions.

I have been busier than ever since covid came along but haven't really paid attention to how the company is doing globally or here.

Edit: I think some grads may have been put on covid payments

onrail

Been tipping along ourselves too (multi-national consultancy), and no pay reductions yet apart from those at Associate-Director level and above.

That saying, most of our work has been with pre-existing contracts and frameworks - the pipeline isn't looking particularly promising.

TheBoyConor

Local Authorities. Executive Engineer grade. Reasonable enough money considering that the hours and general conditions are grand out.
Obviously jobs secure as anything but I do hear here on Boards that there are ráméisions about public sector pay cuts, a possible revisit to the likes of FEMPI.

Wildly Boaring

SteadyNed wrote: »

And here we are again folks... Just as there might have been a glimpse of prosperity in the industry, bang. Usual story.

So how 'good' did salary get for people recently? Where do you see job security and salary levels going in the next few years?

EI salary guide looks about right.
Maybe slightly under if you pushed for a rise early 2020
(I luckily moved in Feb with a good increase and a safer environment)

11-15 years exp = average 63k and top 75k
16-20 years exp = average 70k and top 81k

Salaries were definitely on the rise late 2019 and into 2020

onrail

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Local Authorities. Executive Engineer grade. Reasonable enough money considering that the hours and general conditions are grand out.
Obviously jobs secure as anything but I do hear here on Boards that there are ráméisions about public sector pay cuts, a possible revisit to the likes of FEMPI.

I turned down a Dublin based LA role recently, more because of personal circumstances than anything - might be a big regret depending on what happens with the private sector in the next few months!

TheBoyConor

Keep applying for panels and do be trying the OPW and Civil Service engineering roles too.
And ESB and ESBI are supposed to be great to work for for engineers and very good pay and very good benefits.

Alkers

I posted in the engineering jobs available thread but the courts service are looking for a Chartered Energy Engineer / Building Service Engineer with ten years experience, which they expect to be able to attract with a salary of 32k

https://www.courts.ie/careers

[Deleted User]

TheBoyConor wrote: »

............
And ESB and ESBI are supposed to be great to work for for engineers and very good pay and very good benefits.

Would they start folk half way up a payscale though?
Two colleagues worked for ESB as temp contractors a few years ago and reckoned it was a great gig for graduates but not so good for folk looking to jump in after a decade or so of working (unless you wanted a decent paycut)

This looks good for someone with 3 years exp for instance...... not so good if you've 10+
https://careers.esb.ie/job/One-Dublin-Airport-Central-D/522981802/
Civil and Structural Engineer
€40000 - €50000 per annum

Wildly Boaring

Alkers wrote: »

I posted in the engineering jobs available thread but the courts service are looking for a Chartered Energy Engineer / Building Service Engineer with ten years experience, which they expect to be able to attract with a salary of 32k

https://www.courts.ie/careers

Didn't get to look at it
But that's ridiculous

Hope to christ they get no applications