Ballymurphy massacre

BonnieSituation · 12-05-2021 2:00pm

downcow wrote: »

I don’t disagree with much of your description of that day but quite different from bloody Sunday imho.
I could of course use much more horrific descriptions of killings by Uvf and Ira than you have described here, but out of respect for the ballymurphy families, I will not.
I repeat that many grieving british families will be pleased at the comfort ballymurphy families have received but will wonder was their loved one less important.
This is the question about how we go forward- I don’t begrudge these families their answers. It’s very hard for british families to see the killers of their innocent loved ones sitting in eg the ni executive and the Dail

That you still can't wrap your head around the difference between State killing their own people* and terrorist organisations says all we need to know.

You march in with this false equivalence all of the time.

Not only that, there's plenty of opportunity to discuss the tragedy of loyalist and republican murderers, but you choose here to basically give is the "sure they were all at it".
The British State murdered its citizens* for no reason other than they could. That's it. How is that remotely defensible?

*If the Unionists and British want to continually claim that Ulster is British etc then the least they can do is acknowledge the murder of their own people. See how that feels. I'm not for one second othering the people of Ballymurphy or Derry, but the pussyfooting around it annoys me. If they killed 10 people in that fashion on the streets of Swindon, I can't imagine it would have taken 50 years for the truth to come out.

BonnieSituation · 12-05-2021 2:02pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I can only presume Seamus Mallon suffered with a medical condition which caused the odours? Great man, sad loss.

Perhaps. When one has a lilly-liver it tends to atrophy and rot over time.

BonnieSituation · 12-05-2021 2:04pm

head82 wrote: »

I was unaware of this incident until seeing a fantastic documentary from 2018.. Massacre at Ballymurphy (aka The Ballymurphy Precedent).
It was screened on CH4 and RTE in September 2018. Well worth seeking out.
Although I'm not sure where you'd go to find it. Doesn't appear to be on YouTube.
Truly shocking stuff!

In light of recent events, it may get a repeat. Keep an eye out for it.

I think I heard it was due for repeat this week.

Jeremy Sproket · 12-05-2021 2:09pm

Can we not capture them (admittedly illegally) and put them on trial here the same way Mossad captured Hitler's Nazis in Argentina and extradited them to Israel?

Timberrrrrrrr · 12-05-2021 2:22pm

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

Can we not capture them (admittedly illegally) and put them on trial here the same way Mossad captured Hitler's Nazis in Argentina and extradited them to Israel?

Would you be OK with Irish citizens being illegally kidnapped, sent to England and put on trial too?

Hamsterchops · 12-05-2021 2:34pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Perhaps. When one has a lilly-liver it tends to atrophy and rot over time.

Possibly consumed too much púca, although that tends to make people arogant, testy & stupid, and Séamus was none of those! He wasn't a smart arse either.

BonnieSituation · 12-05-2021 2:40pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Possibly consumed too much púca, although that tends to make people arogant, testy & stupid, and Séamus was none of those! He wasn't a smart arse either.

Naïve, cap doffing and acquiescent are some of the adjectives you might prefer to use.

gormdubhgorm · 12-05-2021 2:41pm

Marco23d wrote: »

Very little attention given to this on boards, imagine a similar situation involving the IRA the thread would be blown up with people pretending they care about truth and justice.

I don't think that is true either. On a human level no normal person likes anyone who loses life. Whether it be given justification illegally or legally.

The tit for tat nature of NI 'politics' is well known. It was culture created by both sides. While each blaming the other.

From the British soldiers perspective they saw the enemy everywhere, communities which at the very least sheltered and harboured those who would 'pick them off' in safehouses ete. So the British give the army the unofficial nod to let loose like a pack of wild animals on the innocent civilians because they came from a 'branded' community.

It only serves to remind me how the Troubles were bad for everyone involved. There were no winners only losers. Death and destruction.
Creating warped minds in which human life was cheap - almost a game for some. A way of life.

It was only when people on (both sides) actually stopped talked/negotiated that any progress was made.

What a waste of life for nothing. What exactly did it all achieve?

myfreespirit · 12-05-2021 2:46pm

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

Can we not capture them (admittedly illegally) and put them on trial here the same way Mossad captured Hitler's Nazis in Argentina and extradited them to Israel?

Sadly, those responsible will likely never face a reckoning for their crimes. The best course of action may be to have a Truth and Reconciliation Commission where the soldiers are given the opportunity to admit to their wrongdoing and to apologise to the grieving families.

However, in my opinion, those soldiers are cowards and liars, so even if given that platform, they won't admit the crimes they committed.

ArthurDayne · 12-05-2021 3:08pm

downcow wrote: »

I don’t disagree with much of your description of that day but quite different from bloody Sunday imho.
I could of course use much more horrific descriptions of killings by Uvf and Ira than you have described here, but out of respect for the ballymurphy families, I will not.
I repeat that many grieving british families will be pleased at the comfort ballymurphy families have received but will wonder was their loved one less important.
This is the question about how we go forward- I don’t begrudge these families their answers. It’s very hard for british families to see the killers of their innocent loved ones sitting in eg the ni executive and the Dail

The whole point of labelling things as “terrorism”, ideally, is that sovereign states operate by the rule of law and the violence which State agents carry out is done in a way which differentiates it from how terrorists behave.

Where State violence flaunts the rule of law, and worse still it is then subject to cover-up and victim-blaming, it diminishes the moral authority of the State to call anything terrorism — and encourages distrust and even hatred of the State.

It’s not that the victims of illegal or unjustifiable State violence are more important, it’s that the perpetration of such violence demeans the very thing which the State is claiming to defend.

Shebean · 12-05-2021 3:53pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I don't think that is true either. On a human level no normal person likes anyone who loses life. Whether it be given justification illegally or legally.

The tit for tat nature of NI 'politics' is well known. It was culture created by both sides. While each blaming the other.

From the British soldiers perspective they saw the enemy everywhere, communities which at the very least sheltered and harboured those who would 'pick them off' in safehouses ete. So the British give the army the unofficial nod to let loose like a pack of wild animals on the innocent civilians because they came from a 'branded' community.

It only serves to remind me how the Troubles were bad for everyone involved. There were no winners only losers. Death and destruction.
Creating warped minds in which human life was cheap - almost a game for some. A way of life.

It was only when people on (both sides) actually stopped talked/negotiated that any progress was made.

What a waste of life for nothing. What exactly did it all achieve?

Such behaviour would constitute a war crime would it not?

A working towards an end of oppression and toward an equal democracy.
People are pushed into such actions. Content people don't create a resistance to nothing.

steddyeddy · 12-05-2021 4:48pm

downcow wrote: »

Firstly I am really pleased for the families of these innocent people. I was unaware of the situation until I watched in on an extended news bulletin last night. Horrific stuff and a terrible tome for that small community.

What I am less comfortable is the posters on here who have used it in their continual attempt to rewrite history in ni to, brits are bad, Irish are good.

These killings are certainly no worse than thousands of other killings in ni and elsewhere committed by Uvf, ira, etc.
The dilema goes on - is it better to investigate a tiny few or stop the investigations. I think I am in the later position. I know people today who are pleased for the ballymurphy families but are filled with additional hurt and grief as they try to understand why no one cares about the killing of their loved one.
Very difficult circle to square
But I suggest the anti british sentiment should be parked at times like these as many many British families are grieving and have had no enquiries.

I do trust this outcome is somehow helpful to the ballymurphy families

It's only difficult for someone who's viewing the troubles using selective memory.

First of all your comparing the victims of the Ballymurphy massacre and Bloody Sunday to victims of the IRA bombings. There's no comparison. First of all many members of the IRA went to jail for the bombing campaign. They were punished although I accept that their early release was very painful for the families of the innocent victims that were killed in the bombings.

Secondly the families of the Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday victims were painted as deserving of their slaughter by the soldiers as they were "terrorists". There's still many clueless British people who today still think that these innocent victims did something deserving of execution.

A substantial number of the families of the IRA victims got at least some justice. The families of those executed by soldiers had their loved ones names tarnished and were attacked by the British media and public.

An analogous situation would be if the Irish government, media and public refused to condemn the IRA for the Birmingham pub bombings and then claiming that the victims likely did something to deserve it.

downcow · 12-05-2021 5:51pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

It's only difficult for someone who's viewing the troubles using selective memory.

First of all your comparing the victims of the Ballymurphy massacre and Bloody Sunday to victims of the IRA bombings. There's no comparison. First of all many members of the IRA went to jail for the bombing campaign. They were punished although I accept that their early release was very painful for the families of the innocent victims that were killed in the bombings.

Secondly the families of the Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday victims were painted as deserving of their slaughter by the soldiers as they were "terrorists". There's still many clueless British people who today still think that these innocent victims did something deserving of execution.

A substantial number of the families of the IRA victims got at least some justice. The families of those executed by soldiers had their loved ones names tarnished and were attacked by the British media and public.

An analogous situation would be if the Irish government, media and public refused to condemn the IRA for the Birmingham pub bombings and then claiming that the victims likely did something to deserve it.

I did not mention ira bombs. You mention it because it’s easier to stomach that thinking about Irish people putting guns to the heads of innocent British people and pulling triggers (not to even mention the hundreds of ira victims who would have much rather died quickly by that method). Here is the type of case I am thinking in this clip made by a friend just a few days ago https://www.facebook.com/100001723264795/posts/4149965475070854/?extid=0&d=n

SouthWesterly · 12-05-2021 5:51pm

Just saw on the news that Boris has apologised for the killings

Faugheen · 12-05-2021 5:53pm

Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday were war crimes committed by a nation with a history of glorifying war.

Odhinn · 12-05-2021 5:57pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday were war crimes committed by a nation with a history of glorifying war.

They were "police" actions typical of what occurred in Africa, the middle east etc. There are hundreds if not thousands of Ballymurphys/"Bloody sunday" through out the history of the Empire up to modern times.

Hqrry113 · 12-05-2021 6:52pm

Top British army officer in Northern Ireland from 1970-72 who developed a strategy of using loyalist gangs to fight indelendence movements once described the law as "little more than a propaganda tool to discredit our enemies and to do away with unwanted members of the public".

downcow · 12-05-2021 6:54pm

Hqrry113 wrote: »

Top British army officer in Northern Ireland from 1970-72 who developed a strategy of using loyalist gangs to fight indelendence movements once described the law as "little more than a propaganda tool to discredit our enemies and to do away with unwanted members of the public".

Link please?

Hqrry113 · 12-05-2021 7:00pm

On 16 January 1981, Bernadette Devlin and her husband were shot by members of the Ulster Freedom Fighters, a cover name of the Ulster Defence Association (UDA), who broke into their home near Coalisland, County Tyrone.

The gunmen shot Devlin nine times in front of her children.
The SAS were watching the McAliskey home at the time, but instead of arresting the loyalist killers on the way in, they arrested them on the way out instead, it has been claimed that Devlin's assassination was ordered by British authorities at the highest level and that collusion was more than likely.

A perfect example of proxy warfare, I mean why do it yourself when you can manipulate others into doing it for you and then arrest them afterwards to make yourself appear to be the good guys merely keeping the peace.

jelutong · 12-05-2021 7:23pm

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Just saw on the news that Boris has apologised for the killings[/QUOTEi
It wasn’t a public apology though. The relatives of the victims aren’t satisfied with that and rightly so.

kravmaga · 12-05-2021 7:30pm

myfreespirit wrote: »

One of those present at the scene of the killings was a young Captain Mike Jackson, ostensibly responsible for press relations at the time in Belfast.
The same fellow is now General Sir Mike Jackson, a high ranking official of the British security establishment for many years.
In my opinion, he is thoroughly untrustworthy and a man of low morality, who may well be responsible for covering up the crimes of his fellow soldiers in Ballymurphy over the three days in question.
Shocking and disgusting.

The solicitor for the 10 families stated on TV yesterday that they are taking a civil action against the MOD to include the now Sir Mike Jackson who was a Captain in charge of the Parachute regiment operation over the 3 days in Ballymurphy in 1971.

Its as plain as day that the parachute regiment were up to their eyes in a cover up.

The parachute regiment has a poor reputation in Northern Ireland, they were deliberately sent in by the British government in the early 1970's to be pro-active and agressive to bring the war to the IRA.

Hqrry113 · 12-05-2021 8:14pm

kravmaga wrote: »

The solicitor for the 10 families stated on TV yesterday that they are taking a civil action against the MOD to include the now Sir Mike Jackson who was a Captain in charge of the Parachute regiment operation over the 3 days in Ballymurphy in 1971.

Its as plain as day that the parachute regiment were up to their eyes in a cover up.

The parachute regiment has a poorw reputation in Northern Ireland, they were deliberately sent in by the British government in the early 1970's to be pro-active and agressive to bring the war to the IRA.

Waste of time I think they should just get on with things now to be completely honest.

Junkyard Tom · 12-05-2021 8:17pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

From the British soldiers perspective they saw the enemy everywhere, communities which at the very least sheltered and harboured those who would 'pick them off' in safehouses ete.

Victim blaming and excusing collective punishment of innocent people? Have you considered doing PR for the IDF?

Sick.

Tyrone212 · 12-05-2021 8:28pm

gourcuff wrote: »

not much coverage in the UK ... guess thats not suprising

The story last week about the case being dropped against the British soldiers was front and centre on daily mail, the top story. Yesterday's was hidden way down with hardly any comments and the top comments were ridiculing the decision and making excuses.

Bbc news site I had to scroll near the bottom of the page to see it. From what I saw only sky news briefly had it on the biggest story on their website. Quite pathetic really.

trashcan · 12-05-2021 8:32pm

downcow wrote: »

I did not mention ira bombs. You mention it because it’s easier to stomach that thinking about Irish people putting guns to the heads of innocent British people and pulling triggers (not to even mention the hundreds of ira victims who would have much rather died quickly by that method). Here is the type of case I am thinking in this clip made by a friend just a few days ago https://www.facebook.com/100001723264795/posts/4149965475070854/?extid=0&d=n

It doesn’t change the basic point he’s making though. Why can’t you see that there is a huge difference between the so called forces of law and order and illegal organisations like the IRA doing it ? You constantly want to know why the victims of Ballymurphy, Bloody Sunday etc are more important than IRA victims. It’s not about being more important though . Why do you refuse to see that ?. Nobody was stopping the authorities investigating IRA murders, and as pointed out, IRA men went to jail when they were caught. With cases like Ballymurphy though, the State actively covered up wholesale murder, and that’s a best case scenario. Can you not see how this undermines the whole rule of law ?

Hqrry113 · 12-05-2021 8:39pm

trashcan wrote: »

It doesn’t change the basic point he’s making though. Why can’t you see that there is a huge difference between the so called forces of law and order and illegal organisations like the IRA doing it ? You constantly want to know why the victims of Ballymurphy, Bloody Sunday etc are more important than IRA victims. It’s not about being more important though . Why do you refuse to see that ?. Nobody was stopping the authorities investigating IRA murders, and as pointed out, IRA men went to jail when they were caught. With cases like Ballymurphy though, the State actively covered up wholesale murder, and that’s a best case scenario. Can you not see how this undermines the whole rule of law ?

He does see it but he only cares when an incident is brought up that he can bash SF/IRA for.

Hqrry113 · 12-05-2021 9:07pm

lawred2 · 12-05-2021 9:20pm

trashcan wrote: »

It doesn’t change the basic point he’s making though. Why can’t you see that there is a huge difference between the so called forces of law and order and illegal organisations like the IRA doing it ? You constantly want to know why the victims of Ballymurphy, Bloody Sunday etc are more important than IRA victims. It’s not about being more important though . Why do you refuse to see that ?. Nobody was stopping the authorities investigating IRA murders, and as pointed out, IRA men went to jail when they were caught. With cases like Ballymurphy though, the State actively covered up wholesale murder, and that’s a best case scenario. Can you not see how this undermines the whole rule of law ?

Of course he sees it. His act is well worn at this stage.

Never knew anything of the massacre until yesterday he says.

Tiresome.

downcow · 12-05-2021 9:28pm

Hqrry113 wrote: »

On 16 January 1981, Bernadette Devlin and her husband were shot by members of the Ulster Freedom Fighters, a cover name of the Ulster Defence Association (UDA), who broke into their home near Coalisland, County Tyrone.

The gunmen shot Devlin nine times in front of her children.
The SAS were watching the McAliskey home at the time, but instead of arresting the loyalist killers on the way in, they arrested them on the way out instead, it has been claimed that Devlin's assassination was ordered by British authorities at the highest level and that collusion was more than likely.

A perfect example of proxy warfare, I mean why do it yourself when you can manipulate others into doing it for you and then arrest them afterwards to make yourself appear to be the good guys merely keeping the peace.

..... And I assume you have some evidence for this accusation?
Still waiting for the link from your last post

downcow · 12-05-2021 9:33pm

Tyrone212 wrote: »

The story last week about the case being dropped against the British soldiers was front and centre on daily mail, the top story. Yesterday's was hidden way down with hardly any comments and the top comments were ridiculing the decision and making excuses.

Bbc news site I had to scroll near the bottom of the page to see it. From what I saw only sky news briefly had it on the biggest story on their website. Quite pathetic really.

You need to understand that this is not a big story across the UK. This is 50 years old. This is the same as talking about atrocities in in 1995 about World War II. The passage of time is huge.
The story about cases being dropped against people is a story about today, it is no wonder it takes higher profile.

The BM incident is horrific for all those involved, and impact lives today of those who feel connected, but it is as remote for the average UK resident as a discussion on the UK miners strike would be to a Dubliner. That's just the reality

Ballymurphy massacre

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