Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

saabsaab · 10-05-2021 09:07PM

Blut2 wrote: »

The opposition (and media) were absolutely in the wrong for their screaming for MHQ, despite all evidence and facts showing its ineffectiveness (and damage to Irish citizen's lives). But at the end of the day none of them are in government, in a position to pass laws.

Of the parties in government its been shown that FF, and Stephen Donnelly in particular, were the driving force behind all of our travel restrictions being brought in. FG were very public in being against them, FF had to go to bat to drag the restrictions into being. And so the buck stops with FF. Without their support of MHQ it never would have been imposed.

Who says they were wrong? It could have been better but it has worked in stopping (to a large extent) unnecessary travel. We don't have variants spreading in the community luke the UK variant in January.

Klonker · 10-05-2021 09:14PM

saabsaab wrote: »

Who says they were wrong? It could have been better but it has worked in stopping (to a large extent) unnecessary travel. We don't have variants spreading in the community luke the UK variant in January.

That bear tax is working well too.

Valhallapt · 10-05-2021 09:20PM

Klonker wrote: »

That bear tax is working well too.

I’m not so sure, was walking through the woods and saw the biggest pile of shi..... I conclude it came from a bear, no evidence but that’s my fact.

gozunda · 10-05-2021 09:34PM

Lumen wrote: »

You're being remarkably evasive. Do you believe that the 2k fine should have been renewed, or not?

Not sure you're being totally ingenuous there tbh. But no matter.

But anyway that was already covered when I detailed that travel restrictions etc were more than justified where they discourage people from traveling and if they don't then people will be fined. Its really not like people are being forced at knifepoint or similar to the airport and we know its a temporary measure. Eitherway I'm not particularly surprised it was renewed.

sy_flembeck · 10-05-2021 09:56PM

OK, time to email a complaint my TDs.

So that's:

Stephen Donnelly
Simon Harris
Sinn Fein

FFS....

gozunda · 10-05-2021 10:14PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

I see myself as a European citizen. I have a home in county Kildare and a home in county Loulé. I typically spend half the year in one and half the year in the other.

Loulé consistently has lower covid rates that Kildare.

Why am I not allowed to go to my home in Loulé, taking a plane with people who are probably vaccinated and have tested negative to a county with a lower covid prevalence rate??

But I am free to go to Donegal with one of the highest covid rates in Europe on a bus where no one has been tested?

We are either in the EU and I’m a European citizen or we are not in the EU and I am not a European citizen.

The fact is you are free to travel for essential purposes. That hasn't changed at all over the last year. Afaik travelling for essential reasons such as return to your residence etc is allowed.

But no atm the majority of people in Europe at this point in time are not vaccinated. I reckon the same would hold true for those flying within the EU atm.

As to being a EU citizen and your demands for borderless travel...

When the EU finally dismantles national borders then you will be free to travel there and back without restrictions or passports or checks of any kind

In the meantime national governments within the EU are free to control their borders with regard to emergency situations such as a pandemic.

Much the way Spain and Portugal decided to close their shared border for due to the high infection rate of COVID-19

Of interest do you hold joint / sole Portuguese or Irish Nationality? Or do you see the concept of nationality redundant for some reason ?

Valhallapt · 10-05-2021 10:32PM

gozunda wrote: »

But no atm the majority of people in Europe at this point in time are not vaccinated.

Didn’t claim they were

gozunda wrote: »

As to being a EU citizen and your demands for borderless travel...

When the EU finally dismantles national borders then you will be free to travel there and back without restrictions or passports or checks of any kind

They already have, it’s called Schengen. Ireland is the only country in the EU where a passport is necessary?? I regularly travel intra EU, car train plane, no passport necessary.

gozunda wrote: »

In the meantime national governments within the EU are free to control their borders with regard to emergency situations such as a pandemic.

This is a bone of contention within the EU, however the Irish travel restrictions, much like living with covid in Ireland, are the most draconian measures in Europe. How is travelling from Ireland to a lower area of covid treated as a criminal offence, but travelling to a country outside the EU, like the UK is perfectly fine? It’s arbitrary. It has no sound basis in science.

gozunda wrote: »

Of interest do you hold joint / sole Portuguese or Irish Nationality?

Im Irish and ordinarily resident in Ireland. However some years I do spend more time in Portugal than Ireland. I see myself as European of Irish persuasion, I cheer for Ireland!

gozunda wrote: »

Or do you see the concept of nationality redundant for some reason ?

Nationalism is the refuge of scoundrels

10-05-2021 11:09PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

Exactly last Feb March April, there was merit to closing airports. It’s about a year too late now as we approach 40% vaccination rates.

Under EU law I should have the right to travel to another part of the EU, this right is being denied. Fair enough If they want to block my return, but how can they block my departure when the destination is welcoming me?

I’ll go regardless, I’ll either pay the fine or go via the uk, but the law is an ass in this case.

Oh ffs. This is just ridiculous at this stage.

You are an Irish citizen with an Irish passport that's a registered resident for tax I would imagine. You have no right in law to travel to Portugal for starters and secondly, you can leave tomorrow if you want. No one will prevent you from leaving.

I really cannot understand the difficulty people have with understanding this.

A fine issued after committing an act did not prevent you from performing said act.

It's like saying the government is stopping you from getting blind drunk by issuing a fine after the fact. So how have you a hangover then?

The government is stopping me from killing my wife because of I actually kill her, I will be sent to jail. It's she dead? Yes so how the **** did they stop me?

Or by claiming my doctor stopped me from getting getting sick by treating the illness with medicine.

Detection is not prevention. Vaccines are not the same as antivirals.

And none of this means that I am in support of the regulations but facts and reality don't change just because I may want them to.

Hulk Hands · 10-05-2021 11:11PM

As well as FF and populist parties exploiting an opportunity, the zero covid crowd can take a fair portion of the blame that this farce was implemented, through a degree of public pressure in the end. Dangerous ISAG individuals such as Gerry Killeen and Tomas Ryan (who has zero relevant qualifications) being wheeled out on national TV night after night, talking about a ridiculous strategy with a completely unachievable goal. Same organisation has had leaked documents advising them to "to spread fear" in the general population. Disgusting individuals and organisation

naufragos123 · 10-05-2021 11:17PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

Didn’t claim they were

They already have, it’s called Schengen. Ireland is the only country in the EU where a passport is necessary?? I regularly travel intra EU, car train plane, no passport necessary.

This is a bone of contention within the EU, however the Irish travel restrictions, much like living with covid in Ireland, are the most draconian measures in Europe. How is travelling from Ireland to a lower area of covid treated as a criminal offence, but travelling to a country outside the EU, like the UK is perfectly fine? It’s arbitrary. It has no sound basis in science.

Im Irish and ordinarily resident in Ireland. However some years I do spend more time in Portugal than Ireland. I see myself as European of Irish persuasion, I cheer for Ireland!

Nationalism is the refuge of scoundrels

Could have written all that myself, so much do I agree with Valhallapt. I also divide my time between Ireland and a home in the EU, in my case, Spain. I'm also Irish but very much consider myself European. Not sure I'll be cheering for Ireland much longer though.

I've hugely enjoyed the pro Europe and easy travel environment of the past two decades and am quite frankly chilled at this very nationalist, anti foreign and anti travel sentiment creeping in. I don't buy that's it's all Covid related. The surge in popularity for Sinn Fein and the fact that they will almost certainly play a big part in the next Government and that fact that everything goes in cycles heralds a new era for this country I think and one I'm not so comfortable with. It's also economically foolish as we've always been economically volatile and need allies. It might be a tad over dramatic to say we're making enemies with our policies but we're certainly not making any friends.

10-05-2021 11:17PM

Hulk Hands wrote: »

As well as FF and populist parties exploiting an opportunity, the zero covid crowd can take a fair portion of the blame that this farce was implemented, through a degree of public pressure in the end. Dangerous ISAG individuals such as Gerry Killeen and Tomas Ryan (who has zero relevant qualifications) being wheeled out on national TV night after night, talking about a ridiculous strategy with a completely unachievable goal. Same organisation has had leaked documents advising them to "to spread fear" in the general population. Disgusting individuals and organisation

They are both qualified. Highly qualifed in fact.

Gerry Killeen is an epidemiologist with years of field research and Tomas Ryan is a geneticist. He may not work in this field but he is qualified.

10-05-2021 11:21PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

They are both qualified. Highly qualifed in fact.

Gerry Killeen is an epidemiologist with years of field research and Tomas Ryan is a geneticist. He may not work in this field but he is qualified.

Qualified in a book-smarts kind of way. Such that in the real world, rather than their academic one, what they spout is utter unachievable and scaremongering garbage

Hulk Hands · 10-05-2021 11:23PM

Ryan has a base undergrad in genetics and a PHD in Neuroscience. That has very little relevance. Consistently referred to as an expert

I never mentioned Kileens qualifications. Just his dangerous rhetoric designed, in their own words, to spread fear

10-05-2021 11:24PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Qualified in a book-smarts kind of way. Such that in the real world, rather than their academic one, what they spout is utter unachievable and scaremongering garbage

Possible so, I don't listen to them but they are still qualifed to speak about covid-19 the disease. Maybe not societies approach to it

10-05-2021 11:27PM

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Ryan has a base undergrad in genetics and a PHD in Neuroscience. That has very little relevance. Consistently referred to as an expert

I never mentioned Kileens qualifications. Just his dangerous rhetoric designed, in their own words, to spread fear

He's a qualified geneticist. That won't change no matter what you say.

"A geneticist is a science who studies genes, including how they are inherited, mutated, activated, or inactivated. They often study the role that genes play in disease and health."

Yeah, not at all relevant

gozunda · 10-05-2021 11:36PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

Didn’t claim they were

You did bizarrely claim

Why am I not allowed to go to my home in Loulé, taking a plane with people who are probably vaccinated

Considering the rate of vaccination in the EU atm - thats unlikely.

Valhallapt wrote: »

They already have, it’s called Schengen. Ireland is the only country in the EU where a passport is necessary?? I regularly travel intra EU, car train plane, no passport necessary.

You are indeed correct. Ireland is not part of Schengen. Dont like that? Plenty of countries in Mainland Europe to choose.

Valhallapt wrote: »

This is a bone of contention within the EU, however the Irish travel restrictions, much like living with covid in Ireland, are the most draconian measures in Europe. How is travelling from Ireland to a lower area of covid treated as a criminal offence, but travelling to a country outside the EU, like the UK is perfectly fine? It’s arbitrary. It has no sound basis in science.

So I guess you're unhappy that Portugal does not permit travel from the UK then unless you a returning resident? Or that Portugal limits entry to Portugal from an EU/EEA country where the COVID-19 incidence rate exceeds 150 cases per 100,000 inhabitants? Or that Spain and Portugal closed the border between them for a lengthy period of time. All to help reduce and keep down the rate of infection.

Or Ireland and the UK share a historic common travel are Its all fairly logical tbf even if some do not appreciate that.

Valhallapt wrote: »

Im Irish and ordinarily resident in Ireland. However some years I do spend more time in Portugal than Ireland. I see myself as European of Irish persuasion, I cheer for Ireland!
Nationalism is the refuge of scoundrels

Nationalism and nationality / citizenship of a country are two very different things tbf.

Tbh overall it sounds very like an 'I want things the way I want things and I want them now! regardless' . I can see how citizenship or indeed public health concerns might not be an important aspect within that.

faceman · 11-05-2021 05:57AM

I’ve noticed a slight pick up in non Spanish accents in my area of Spain. The nordies. Not so much holidays but tending to be older folks with properties in Spain. All fully vaccinated

It seems the single flight from Dublin in now full and there’s a lot of NI people on it. Looking at the Ryanair flight schedule for June and they are increasing the number of Dublin flights to Spain.

I’m also heading anecdotally that the gardai aren’t being as thorough with checking people’s stories at the airport. Not checking paperwork for medical appointments, residency abroad etc

Valhallapt · 11-05-2021 07:27AM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You have no right in law to travel to Portugal

Yes I do, in 1992 Ireland voted in favour of the Maastricht treaty which guaranteed my European citizenship and enshrined my right to travel, live and work in any part of the eu.

Are we to start to unpick other referendums as you don’t like them?

Pandiculation · 11-05-2021 07:27AM

I haven’t heard of any change to the US entry restrictions.

It would seem that unless you’re a US citizen, a permanent resident or have reasons for travel that meet certain emergency criteria there’s still an absolute ban on travel from Ireland to the US.

https://ie.usembassy.gov/us-travel-restrictions/

Last updated 4th May 2021

Chuck Norris 2021 · 11-05-2021 07:29AM

faceman wrote: »

I’ve noticed a slight pick up in non Spanish accents in my area of Spain. The nordies. Not so much holidays but tending to be older folks with properties in Spain. All fully vaccinated

It seems the single flight from Dublin in now full and there’s a lot of NI people on it. Looking at the Ryanair flight schedule for June and they are increasing the number of Dublin flights to Spain.

I’m also heading anecdotally that the gardai aren’t being as thorough with checking people’s stories at the airport. Not checking paperwork for medical appointments, residency abroad etc

I'm guessing that they can't touch said nordies either? That'll be a real kick in the ass to the government if we have people flooding south to fly out of Dublin. Great to see an increase in traffic.

stephenjmcd · 11-05-2021 07:33AM

Chuck Norris 2021 wrote: »

I'm guessing that they can't touch said nordies either? That'll be a real kick in the ass to the government if we have people flooding south to fly out of Dublin. Great to see an increase in traffic.

There was an initial loophole where you had to be a resident in the state for Gardai to be able to direct you to return home and stop travel but that was gotten rid of a while ago.

If someone from NI turns up at Dublin Airport, the Gardai have the same powers to turn them around as they do someone living in Dublin for example.

Marcusm · 11-05-2021 07:38AM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Oh ffs. This is just ridiculous at this stage.

You are an Irish citizen with an Irish passport that's a registered resident for tax I would imagine. You have no right in law to travel to Portugal for starters and secondly, you can leave tomorrow if you want. No one will prevent you from leaving.

I really cannot understand the difficulty people have with understanding this.

A fine issued after committing an act did not prevent you from performing said act.

It's like saying the government is stopping you from getting blind drunk by issuing a fine after the fact. So how have you a hangover then?

The government is stopping me from killing my wife because of I actually kill her, I will be sent to jail. It's she dead? Yes so how the **** did they stop me?

Or by claiming my doctor stopped me from getting getting sick by treating the illness with medicine.

Detection is not prevention. Vaccines are not the same as antivirals.

And none of this means that I am in support of the regulations but facts and reality don't change just because I may want them to.

The thing is, Niner, that Ireland has limited ability to preclude actual travel out of the country (especially for non-Irish residents) on the basis of freedom of movement (I know you’ve disputed this but I’ve cited the treaty articles) abject to serious public security or health matter. Leaving the country is not a challenge to Ireland’s public health. Returning to Ireland would be. This is effectively acknowledged by the government failing to enact a travel ban but leaving a fine for travel to an airport or port (with intent to travel).

There is a practical aspect to letting people leave as they will want to come back and that is when the hard cases get newspaper space. The fact is that there is no higher risk in certain areas than in Ireland. The travel ban is not a practical measure at this stage.

Marcusm · 11-05-2021 07:39AM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

There was an initial loophole where you had to be a resident in the state for Gardai to be able to direct you to return home and stop travel but that was gotten rid of a while ago.

If someone from NI turns up at Dublin Airport, the Gardai have the same powers to turn them around as they do someone living in Dublin for example.

But the Gardai have not been given a power to turn people around; they have been given a power to fine people. This essentially makes it a question of economic resources and, arguably, a discrimination between citizens (not all cherished equally!).

Chuck Norris 2021 · 11-05-2021 07:41AM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

There was an initial loophole where you had to be a resident in the state for Gardai to be able to direct you to return home and stop travel but that was gotten rid of a while ago.

If someone from NI turns up at Dublin Airport, the Gardai have the same powers to turn them around as they do someone living in Dublin for example.

They cannot stop anyone travelling. And I doubt they'd even bother trying to impose a fine on someone from another jurisdiction.

Valhallapt · 11-05-2021 07:51AM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

There was an initial loophole where you had to be a resident in the state for Gardai to be able to direct you to return home and stop travel but that was gotten rid of a while ago.

If someone from NI turns up at Dublin Airport, the Gardai have the same powers to turn them around as they do someone living in Dublin for example.

Do they have to power to question and detain. Can I just ignore them and walk passed them? Do they need to prove intent to travel, or do I need to prove that travel is essential? Do gardai have the ability to define what is essential?

Valhallapt · 11-05-2021 07:58AM

To clarify:

If I am vaccinated I can travel from India to Ireland with no fine or MHQ.

I can travel freely within the UK and NI, no need for any tests.

I cannot travel to another part of Europe with a lower infection rate, even if I am a European citizen and vaccinated and have a negative pcr?

That’s nothing other than xenophobic populist FF policy, perhaps hoping to help out their landlord mates by forcing people to holiday in the rain.

stephenjmcd · 11-05-2021 07:58AM

Valhallapt wrote: »

Do they have to power to question and detain. Can I just ignore them and walk passed them? Do they need to prove intent to travel, or do I need to prove that travel is essential? Do gardai have the ability to define what is essential?

What's defined as essential is listed in SI 217, same as previous SI. A Garda can of course use discretion when dealing with someone, as they have done many times at checkpoints etc.

Do they have the power to question you, yup they do. If you ignore them and just don't bother stopping when they ask you to, yup that's an offence, don't give them your details or refuse to comply with direction, another offence.

Burden is on the traveller to prove the journey is essential & meets the criteria set out in the SI.

I don't like the fine or my lack of ability to travel more than the next person,(simply pointing out what's in the various pieces of legislation, some of which don't make much sense), desperate to get out of here for a holiday, I know I'll have a high chance of doing it in the next few months, I'm aiming for late July once the EU system is in place.

I've a number of friends who are Gardai and they don't like some of the rules like everyone else, they'll use their discretion most of the time but they've just a job to do at the same time.

pjohnson · 11-05-2021 08:08AM

Valhallapt wrote: »

To clarify:

If I am vaccinated I can travel from India to Ireland with no fine or MHQ.

I can travel freely within the UK and NI, no need for any tests.

I cannot travel to another part of Europe with a lower infection rate, even if I am a European citizen and vaccinated and have a negative pcr?

That’s nothing other than xenophobic populist FF policy, perhaps hoping to help out their landlord mates by forcing people to holiday in the rain.

YOU can travel. YOU choose not to because YOU dont want to pay the fine.

Unless you are "populist FF" own YOUR decision.

Valhallapt · 11-05-2021 08:12AM

pjohnson wrote: »

YOU can travel. YOU choose not to because YOU dont want to pay the fine.

Unless you are "populist FF" own YOUR decision.

I cannot travel without paying a fine. On what basis does that decision sit? What is the logic or the science behind it.

pjohnson · 11-05-2021 08:19AM

Valhallapt wrote: »

I cannot travel without paying a fine. On what basis does that decision sit? What is the logic or the science behind it.

You cannot travel without paying for flights.

Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

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