Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

ohnonotgmail · 03-05-2021 08:55PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

France and Germany do have a big problem with alcohol, but in Ireland our culture is geared more toward binges. 75% of alcohol consumed here is in a binge, and fewer people consume more of the alcohol.

Gross median household salaries are not higher in France, and I'm not sure about Germany, but I'm pretty sure they're lower there too.

Where are you getting that information, that they have significantly higher salaries? I think you might be confusing PPP-adjusted salaries (Eurostat, OECD) with data produced by national statistics agencies. The French statistical agency INSEE gives their 2017 median disposable household income as €21,120.

I don't know what Germany's is. You'd probably have to speak German to find it. It's almost certainly less than ours, at €43,552.

France and Germany still have big problems with alcohol mind you. 50,000 alcohol deaths in France per year.

if we look at median disposable income there isn't a massive difference between ireland, france and germany. certainly not enough to account for the disparity in alcohol prices.

https://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=ilc_di04&lang=en

odyssey06 · 03-05-2021 09:03PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

France and Germany do have a big problem with alcohol, but in Ireland
Gross median household salaries are not higher in France, and I'm not sure about Germany, but I'm pretty sure they're lower there too.

Where are you getting that information, that they have significantly higher salaries? I think you might be confusing PPP-adjusted salaries (Eurostat, OECD) with data produced by national statistics agencies. The French statistical agency INSEE gives their 2017 median household income as €21,120.
I don't know what Germany's is. You'd probably have to speak German to find it. It's almost certainly less than ours, at €43,552.
France and Germany still have big problems with alcohol mind you. 50,000 alcohol deaths in France per year.

The statistics in general don't add up for me.
I think I may have been using the PPP adjusted salaries... but then how can
Germany and France have a higher average gross wage than we do.
Even when adjusted for net, Ireland Germany and France are in the range of 2500 - 2700.
And yet Ireland has a median household income more than double that of France's?
Even given the difference between median and average that doesn't seem credible... I wonder if Ireland's figures are distorted by adult children living and working in same household.

You claim 50,000 alcohol related deaths for France... I find articles claiming 41,000 deaths. I find articles for Ireland which ranges from 600 -1000.
Alcohol related is not the same as alcohol caused, and the range in figures quotes is an indicator of how vague this metric is.

It doesn't suggest Ireland relative to our EU peers is a significant outlier in terms of alcohol impact requiring these measures, especially as alcohol consumption in Ireland is on a downward trend.

03-05-2021 10:07PM

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

EddieN75 wrote: »

I'm not sure where you figures are coming from https://www.finfacts-blog.com/2019/04/irish-median-income-at-13th-in-europe.html?m=1#:~:text=In%202017%2C%20median%20disposable%20income,8.6%25%20above%20the%20EU28%20average.

You're using price-adjusted using PPP figures that originated from Eurostat. As mentioned above, Eurostat (and the OECD) prefer these figures, because they are useful for cross comparison between countries. As in, adjusting for PPP will give you an idea of 'bang for your buck' as an Irish worker in Ireland, compared to a French worker in France.

They are not useful when you're an Irish worker visiting France, seeing the price level on a bottle of wine, and thinking "everything is so cheap here".

Countries with lower price levels tend to have lower salaries. Ireland has higher prices, and considerably higher after-tax disposable household income than France.

What you need to look at is the raw statistical data in Ireland, not adjusted for PPP. Our median net household wage is almost double theirs

Still, a bottle of wine might be three times what it costs in France — so we probably do have higher alcohol prices to an extent, but people are exaggerating when they fail to take into account raw salary differences.

03-05-2021 10:12PM

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

odyssey06 wrote: »

And yet Ireland has a median household income more than double that of France's?
Even given the difference between median and average that doesn't seem credible... I wonder if Ireland's figures are distorted by adult children living and working in same household.

.

sure, that might be part of it. But even if it is, 3 adults living together earning a median of about 90k have very low expenses compared to an adult on their own, so have more income after household bills, money for chips and pints.

Economics101 · 03-05-2021 10:50PM

If a lot of heavy drinkers suffer from a (possibly mild) form of addiction, then it is likely that they will not cut their consumption all that much in response to a price increase. So if alcohol is 10% dearer, and these people don't cut their consumption by at least 10%, they are going to end up spending more money on booze. That leaves less money for food, clothing etc.

Of course they might spend less on cigs and gambling, but I doubt it.

KrustyUCC · 03-05-2021 10:54PM

Legislation on minimum unit pricing for alcohol will be brought before Cabinet tomorrow by Health Minister Stephen Donnelly.

The legislation will set a 10c minimum price per gram of alcohol and it is hoped it will only impact on the cheapest drinks sold in off-licences and supermarkets.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/legislation-on-minimum-unit-pricing-for-alcohol-to-go-before-cabinet-tomorrow-40383669.html

They have no hope it will only only impact on the 'cheapest' drinks

They know this too

Atlantic Dawn · 03-05-2021 11:13PM

Sainsbury's in Newry better build an extension.

sully123 · 03-05-2021 11:43PM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Legislation on minimum unit pricing for alcohol will be brought before Cabinet tomorrow by Health Minister Stephen Donnelly.

The legislation will set a 10c minimum price per gram of alcohol and it is hoped it will only impact on the cheapest drinks sold in off-licences and supermarkets.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/legislation-on-minimum-unit-pricing-for-alcohol-to-go-before-cabinet-tomorrow-40383669.html

They have no hope it will only only impact on the 'cheapest' drinks

They know this too

Article suggests 1.32 for a can of beer.
What's the workings behind that?

Hotblack Desiato · 04-05-2021 12:05AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't think price is the only thing that needs to change, but it's absolutely true that alcohol can be bought very cheaply here.

Utter bollocks

Alcohol in Ireland is the second dearest in the EU

Timistry · 04-05-2021 12:06AM

This is madness. I was up north on Saturday and plenty of Irish cars up there. I got 18 Coronas for 13 euro. say no more....

Geuze · 04-05-2021 01:26AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't think price is the only thing that needs to change, but it's absolutely true that alcohol can be bought very cheaply here

566e49b1-b979-2a45-4c02-7bb276227e2d?t=1599226092730

odyssey06 · 04-05-2021 08:48AM

Poll on the Journal... would you travel North to buy drink if MUP introduced.

https://www.thejournal.ie/poll-travel-north-buy-drink-5427499-May2021/

sully123 · 04-05-2021 09:07AM

sully123 wrote: »

Article suggests 1.32 for a can of beer.
What's the workings behind that?

I got it. Tesco lager 440ml can 3.8%.
2.64 for a 4 pack.
So...
440*3.8*.789=1319
=13.2 grams of alcohol
*10c per gram equals €1.32

That's what the article is quoting.
Misleading people as the most common cans are 500ml @ 4.3% = €1.69

ohnonotgmail · 04-05-2021 09:15AM

sully123 wrote: »

I got it. Tesco lager 440ml can 3.8%.
2.64 for a 4 pack.
So...
440*3.8*.789=1319
=13.2 grams of alcohol
*10c per gram equals €1.32

That's what the article is quoting.
Misleading people as the most common cans are 500ml @ 4.3% = €1.69

going by those figures the price of cheap lagers will increase to nearly the price of "premium" lagers like Heineken.

FileNotFound · 04-05-2021 09:21AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

going by those figures the price of cheap lagers will increase to nearly the price of "premium" lagers like Heineken.

Seems that way and I assume that sales can no longer come in below the new minimum pricing.

Honestly will just go North from now on - between not allowing vouchers to be used anymore and making us the most expensive place to drink in the EU - time to give the British gov some of my money instead.

Who is really driving all this - I mean there must be a group of lunatics somewhere behind the scenes, those sad sorry types that have few to no friends and hate anything anyone does that may constitute having fun.

ThunbergsAreGo · 04-05-2021 09:23AM

FileNotFound wrote: »

Seems that way and I assume that sales can no longer come in below the new minimum pricing.

Honestly will just go North from now on - between not allowing vouchers to be used anymore and making us the most expensive place to drink in the EU - time to give the British gov some of my money instead.

Who is really driving all this - I mean there must be a group of lunatics somewhere behind the scenes, those sad sorry types that have few to no friends and hate anything anyone does that may constitute having fun.

Alcohol Action Ireland

The "Independent" (almost entirely government funded) charity

FileNotFound · 04-05-2021 09:30AM

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Alcohol Action Ireland

The "Independent" (almost entirely government funded) charity

So a government funded charity - tax payer funded charity - is now a lobbying group with the power to **** with all of us.

Well I'll have to raise this the next time a politician calls by the door. We all should. This is really a joke.

Thelonious Monk · 04-05-2021 09:37AM

I think AAI is only 3 or 4 people who basically try and come up with ways to nanny us more and more when it comes to alcohol. It's absolutely shocking that these people are allowed dictate how the other 5 million of us consume alcohol.

KrustyUCC · 04-05-2021 10:07AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

going by those figures the price of cheap lagers will increase to nearly the price of "premium" lagers like Heineken.

Of course the 'premium brands won't increase prices according to the government just the 'cheaper' brands lol

Going to be major increses in prices and no sales possible below the floor

Guinness can 4.2% €1.66 minimum

Slab €39.77 minimum

ohnonotgmail · 04-05-2021 10:10AM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Of course the 'premium brands won't increase prices according to the government just the 'cheaper' brands lol

Going to be major increses in prices and no sales possible below the floor

Guinness can 4.2% €1.66 minimum

Slab €39.77 minimum

that is almost exactly what a slab is now. But there is no way they can keep it at that price if perceived lower quality stuff costs the same.

KrustyUCC · 04-05-2021 10:14AM

Timistry wrote: »

This is madness. I was up north on Saturday and plenty of Irish cars up there. I got 18 Coronas for 13 euro. say no more....

The same Coronas will now be 330×0.045x.0.789= 11.72 grams of alcohol

1.17 minimum x 18 = €21.09

62% increase when MUP comes in here

KrustyUCC · 04-05-2021 10:18AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that is almost exactly what a slab is now. But there is no way they can keep it at that price if perceived lower quality stuff costs the same.

The issue is you can no longer have a sale on the slab

The same slab is regularly got for €24, €28, €30

No more

Of course Guinness will raise their prices

Will be funny to see the government reaction when their lies about only 'cheapest' alcohol incresing gets found out

minitrue · 04-05-2021 10:29AM

sully123 wrote: »

Article suggests 1.32 for a can of beer.
What's the workings behind that?

I was going to say they found a 3.345% beer somewhere but I'll presume Sully has it right with a small 440ml pretty weak 3.8% can!

ml * 0.78924 g/ml * ABV * 0.1 €/g = € MUP

500ml @ 4.3% = €1.70 (Bud I think)
500ml @ 5% = €1.97 (Heineken I think)
500ml @ 5.6% = €2.21 (my own favourite beer currently €2.09 in local supermarket)
750ml @ 12% = €7.10 (wine on the weak side)
750ml @ 15% = €8.88 (wine on the strong side)
700ml @ 37.5% = €20.72 (minimum strength vodka e.g. Smirnoff)
700ml @ 40% = €22.10 (spirits in general)

FTR If I budgeted myself €20/annum on booze for the last few years I'd have change left over and I still think this is scandalous. I actual think the (un)intended consequences will be that:
A) problem drinkers will just spend even more on alcohol

people will drink more as it will be much easier to get alcohol at the minimum price rather then having to avoid the local offie and remember to make the trip to a supermarket before you start drinking unless you want to overpay. Or iow you may as well grab a slab or three and bring it home for an after hours session cause it's the same price as you would get it anywhere else anyway.

If this was really thanks to AAI and the like then we would have them change to a "high enough" c/g rate of duty. This is being done for the alcohol trade and therefore trying to help cement in place our unusual relationship with alcohol. The pubs are hoping that closing the gap between the price of cans and pints will have them selling more pints and if they make off sales they will also get more of that (from people who have already been drinking). The off licenses (as opposed to general stores who sell alcohol) are presuming they will increase their sales and profits as people will use them rather then only stocking up with the rest of their shopping.

The supermarkets probably don't really care too much as while they will presumably lose out on volume they are going to be forced into taking a much larger margin on the sales they make. I'm tempted to print out some labels and put them up on the shelves of my local supermarket to show the proposed MUP prices (before things which aren't the cheapest currently increase their prices to try and maintain the perception of price Vs quality).

sully123 · 04-05-2021 10:31AM

Two things I like to drink.
Typical beer like Heineken €1
- new price 1.70.
Typical gin like Gordon's maybe €18
-new price 21.70

Beer up by 70%
Gin up by 21%

How might this affect my drinking habits....
More gin!

kerryjack · 04-05-2021 10:35AM

sully123 wrote: »

Two things I like to drink.
Typical beer like Heineken €1
- new price 1.70.
Typical gin like Gordon's maybe €18
-new price 21.70

Beer up by 70%
Gin up by 21%

How might this affect my drinking habits....
More gin!

Where do you buy Heineken for 1 euro

sully123 · 04-05-2021 10:37AM

kerryjack wrote: »

Where do you buy Heineken for 1 euro

Tesco, but by the slab

kerryjack · 04-05-2021 10:46AM

sully123 wrote: »

Tesco, but by the slab

Would it be there every week 24 cans for 24 euro because I have never seen it down here in my local tesco

FileNotFound · 04-05-2021 10:49AM

The price increases don't sound too bad when looking can by can on premium brands but next xmas a slab will cost almost 40 euro for any beer compared to the 20 euro we are used to.

Same with Wine - Goodbye to the 5 for 6 deals and the 10 euro off when you spend 50 etc. Unless I am mistaken?

I drink Franziskaner for example - 2 euro a bottle in Lidl and O'Briens - soon to cost more so auto change to 2.50 at least (you and I know a 2.20 will be rounded up to 2.50(4 for 10)).

I was enjoying a few of the Belgian beers in Lidl the last 2 weeks, (10.5%) - they will be closer to 4.50 a bottle now instead of 4 for 10. So they will just go off the shelves altogether.

All i can see is less competition, less selection and more buying up north from this...

FileNotFound · 04-05-2021 10:49AM

kerryjack wrote: »

Would it be there every week 24 cans for 24 euro because I have never seen it down here in my local tesco

Most weeks in one of the big supermarkets - think lidl had slabs of some beers down at 20 euro only a few weeks ago.

odyssey06 · 04-05-2021 10:51AM

FileNotFound wrote: »

Same with Wine - Goodbye to the 5 for 6 deals and the 10 euro off when you spend 50 etc. Unless I am mistaken

Those deals are already gone since January.
Cheapest bottle of wine will now be €7.50 and that's for a 12% wine which is rare to see these days.

Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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