Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

firemansam4

tjhook wrote: »

For all the huffing and puffing (on both sides), I bet this MUP will have little effect - either on people's behaviour or on health generally.

• Alcoholics will still find a way to buy what they need.
• People who prefer drinking in pubs will be unaffected and continue to do so (post-Covid).
• People who prefer a drink at home won't suddenly become teetotalers or flock to the pubs.

Of course lack of any real impact will be assumed to mean even more MUP is needed - those pushing for this measure are hardly likely to accept any alternative explanation/viewpoint.

I think there will be groups pushing for more extreme measures for sure, and who knows how far this will go.
The worrying thing is how much influence lobby groups seem to have on the government regardless of what the actual public opinion is on this.

Could a push for full prohibition be such an outlandish thought in the future? Im not saying this is in any way likely any time soon but the more measures are drip fed to us, it may become a more realistic scenario in decades to come.

the beer revolu

tjhook wrote: »

For all the huffing and puffing (on both sides), I bet this MUP will have little effect - either on people's behaviour or on health generally.

• Alcoholics will still find a way to buy what they need.
• People who prefer drinking in pubs will be unaffected and continue to do so (post-Covid).
• People who prefer a drink at home won't suddenly become teetotalers or flock to the pubs.

Of course lack of any real impact will be assumed to mean even more MUP is needed - those pushing for this measure are hardly likely to accept any alternative explanation/viewpoint.

I think you're right.

If there is a drop in consumption (as per current trends) after/if it's introduced, the narrative, no doubt will be - it's working, let's do it more.

And if there's no drop or an insufficient drop the narrative, no doubt will be - it isn't working, we need to do it more.

Hotblack Desiato

tjhook wrote: »

• People who prefer a drink at home won't suddenly become teetotalers or flock to the pubs.

You forgot to mention that these people whose drinking causes no issues for themselves or anyone else will be forced to pay substantially more, and it's not even a tax they're paying.

firemansam4 wrote: »

Could a push for full prohibition be such an outlandish thought in the future?

I fully expect to see rationing in my lifetime, I don't think that's an outlandish thought at all given where we are and what the unaccountable lobby groups want, which is frightening really.

PunkIPA

tjhook wrote: »

For all the huffing and puffing (on both sides), I bet this MUP will have little effect - either on people's behaviour or on health generally.

• Alcoholics will still find a way to buy what they need.
• People who prefer drinking in pubs will be unaffected and continue to do so (post-Covid).
• People who prefer a drink at home won't suddenly become teetotalers or flock to the pubs.

I agree with all of this, but I think it will have a very real effect on the behaviour of a certain type of retail consumer. If it's brought in without similar measures in NI, I think it will 100% result in significant cross-border shopping.

Particularly at Christmas I could see people doing big day trips to Newry/Belfast to stock up on a year's supply, and possibly do a big Christmas shop at the same time.

For an average couple who are drinkers of a certain type there will be literally hundreds of euro a year to be saved by a day trip to do something they would be doing anyway.

I agree it will have no effect on overall consumption, let alone the consumption of addicts.

Tony EH

PunkIPA wrote: »

I agree with all of this, but I think it will have a very real effect on the behaviour of a certain type of retail consumer. If it's brought in without similar measures in NI, I think it will 100% result in significant cross-border shopping.

Particularly at Christmas I could see people doing big day trips to Newry/Belfast to stock up on a year's supply, and possibly do a big Christmas shop at the same time.

For an average couple who are drinkers of a certain type there will be literally hundreds of euro a year to be saved by a day trip to do something they would be doing anyway.

I agree it will have no effect on overall consumption, let alone the consumption of addicts.

I'm old enough to remember shopping trips to Newry. In fact there were coaches put on for shoppers to do the run in the 80's. I remember my mum being quite surprised at the savings to be had and I ended up with Star Wars figures for half the price they were in the south.

I can easily see booze runs to Newry being a thing if this comes in and there's a significant jump in cost.

I don't imagine that it will last too long however for people who will have to do longer journeys. But people close to the border will carry on buying their plonk in the north and I wouldn't blame them. If I lived in Dundalk or Sligo, that's what I'd be doing.

However, when you take the bullshit "heath" excuse out of the equation, and the fact that impact on revenue will be relatively insignificant, one has to ask oneself WHY this is being done?

Is it to try and force people back into pubs at the vintners behest? Is it to up prices, to be then followed by a tax increase later? Because there's no doubt in my mind that this is money orientated and nothing to do with the stated aim of national health.

patrickbrophy18

This is precisely why I didn't vote for any of the Fine Gael, Fianna Fail or Green parties. They spend our taxes on NGOs which we didn't even ask for. They formed a coalition against our wishes when the pandemic hit, an unvoted move. Any change to law or government to do with the people should be put to vote and not forced on us.

The reason why many people are probably drinking more currently is because of the abject misery of lockdown measures which our government continue to enforce. Seriously, the amount of debt and unemployment being forced on the average Joe against their will would drive them to drink and even worse.

This is like kicking someone when they are down. Any escape from the numbing effects of lockdown is being eroded by those in the Dail possibly, while drinking in the Dail bar.

Oh, the irony!

Thankfully, an end to these misery inducing lockdowns is in sight. However, even before the pandemic this was mooted and passed. So...

Reputable Rog

I can remember a time when if you asked any Publican they’d tell you how they loved Good Friday as they could paint or do a bit of maintenance.
Then they saw the roaring trade done by off licences on the Thursday before and the clamour to be allowed open began.
There maybe some trouble ahead with the EU though, it was different for Scotland and Wales as they were leaving and the EU couldn’t be arsed dealing with internal UK matters at the juncture in time.

VinLieger

Reputable Rog wrote: »

I can remember a time when if you asked any Publican they’d tell you how they loved Good Friday as they could paint or do a bit of maintenance.
Then they saw the roaring trade done by off licences on the Thursday before and the clamour to be allowed open began.
There maybe some trouble ahead with the EU though, it was different for Scotland and Wales as they were leaving and the EU couldn’t be arsed dealing with internal UK matters at the juncture in time.

If it is against EU law its up to someone to take a case on it like the scottish whiskey industry did, the EU aren't gonna come calling by themselves.

Wilmol

firemansam4 wrote: »

I think there will be groups pushing for more extreme measures for sure, and who knows how far this will go.
The worrying thing is how much influence lobby groups seem to have on the government regardless of what the actual public opinion is on this.

Could a push for full prohibition be such an outlandish thought in the future? Im not saying this is in any way likely any time soon but the more measures are drip fed to us, it may become a more realistic scenario in decades to come.

I think they might follow the New Zealand principle. People born after certain year will no longer be able to purchase alcohol and cigarettes.

HBC08

Tony EH wrote: »

I'm old enough to remember shopping trips to Newry. In fact there were coaches put on for shoppers to do the run in the 80's. I remember my mum being quite surprised at the savings to be had and I ended up with Star Wars figures for half the price they were in the south.

I can easily see booze runs to Newry being a thing if this comes in and there's a significant jump in cost.

I don't imagine that it will last too long however for people who will have to do longer journeys. But people close to the border will carry on buying their plonk in the north and I wouldn't blame them. If I lived in Dundalk or Sligo, that's what I'd be doing.

However, when you take the bullshit "heath" excuse out of the equation, and the fact that impact on revenue will be relatively insignificant, one has to ask oneself WHY this is being done?

Is it to try and force people back into pubs at the vintners behest? Is it to up prices, to be then followed by a tax increase later? Because there's no doubt in my mind that this is money orientated and nothing to do with the stated aim of national health.

I wish it was a plan to up prices with a view to a tax hike later as you say,theyre not even smart enough to manage something like that.
Whats happened here is lobby groups and a few puratanical wing nuts have gotten further than they thought,nobody shouted stop and here we are.

Suckit

Tony EH wrote: »

Is it to try and force people back into pubs at the vintners behest? Is it to up prices, to be then followed by a tax increase later? Because there's no doubt in my mind that this is money orientated and nothing to do with the stated aim of national health.

Quote from Fine Gael 2011 Manifesto:

5.3 Keeping Communities Vibrant
Supporting Irish Pubs: Fine Gael recognises the importance of the Irish pub for tourism, rural jobs and as a social outlet in communities across the country. We will support the local pub by banning the practice of below cost selling on alcohol, particularly by large supermarkets and the impact this has had on alcohol consumption and the viability of pubs.

It appears in section 5 - Community and Rural Affairs.
The Health and Mental Health section appears much further down the manifesto, in section 13, and there is no mention of alcohol in that.

HBC08 wrote: »

I wish it was a plan to up prices with a view to a tax hike later as you say,theyre not even smart enough to manage something like that.
Whats happened here is lobby groups and a few puratanical wing nuts have gotten further than they thought,nobody shouted stop and here we are.

The whole point of MUP is that 'in theory' the price of alcohol does not go up on every item, it needs to only effect the bottom tier. Which in practice hasn't happened.

kenmc

Suckit wrote: »

Quote from Fine Gael 2011 Manifesto:

It appears in section 5 - Community and Rural Affairs.
The Health and Mental Health section appears much further down the manifesto, in section 13, and there is no mention of alcohol in that.

The whole point of MUP is that 'in theory' the price of alcohol does not go up on every item, it needs to only effect the bottom tier. Which in practice hasn't happened.

And that's exactly why it's an absolute joke. It doesn't just affect the "bottom of the barrel" it has repercussions right through the sector

kenmc

If they were really serious about health, they would permit the increasing number of nonalcoholic beers be sold any time of day. My local Aldi have these outside the naughty section, clearly cos they're not naughty. Yet try buy one before 10.30..... later on Sunday

Tony EH

Suckit wrote: »

Quote from Fine Gael 2011 Manifesto:

It appears in section 5 - Community and Rural Affairs.
The Health and Mental Health section appears much further down the manifesto, in section 13, and there is no mention of alcohol in that.

The whole point of MUP is that 'in theory' the price of alcohol does not go up on every item, it needs to only effect the bottom tier. Which in practice hasn't happened.

That's an FG manifesto from ten years ago and I know this has been shuffled around fro a good while. But why are other parties so eager for it now?

In addition, the "theory", like so many of FG's smoke screens is bollocks.

Timmyr

Wilmol wrote: »

I think they might follow the New Zealand principle. People born after certain year will no longer be able to purchase alcohol and cigarettes.

New Zealand are not doing that?

VinLieger

kenmc wrote: »

If they were really serious about health, they would permit the increasing number of nonalcoholic beers be sold any time of day. My local Aldi have these outside the naughty section, clearly cos they're not naughty. Yet try buy one before 10.30..... later on Sunday

The supreme irony being a litre of orange juice has about as much alcohol in it as any non alcoholic beverage.

cj maxx

kenmc wrote: »

If they were really serious about health, they would permit the increasing number of nonalcoholic beers be sold any time of day. My local Aldi have these outside the naughty section, clearly cos they're not naughty. Yet try buy one before 10.30..... later on Sunday

And stop the price gouging around 0% beers

the beer revolu

kenmc wrote: »

If they were really serious about health, they would permit the increasing number of nonalcoholic beers be sold any time of day. My local Aldi have these outside the naughty section, clearly cos they're not naughty. Yet try buy one before 10.30..... later on Sunday

I'm open to correction here, but I don't think there is anything in law restricting the sale of low/no alcohol beers (<. 5%).
As far as I can make out, it's the supermarkets doing this.

the beer revolu

cj maxx wrote: »

And stop the price gouging around 0% beers

The government don't set the price of beers (or much else).
There is 0 duty on 0% beers.

How do you suggest that the price is fixed?

Antares35

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

This is precisely why I didn't vote for any of the Fine Gael, Fianna Fail or Green parties. They spend our taxes on NGOs which we didn't even ask for. They formed a coalition against our wishes when the pandemic hit, an unvoted move. Any change to law or government to do with the people should be put to vote and not forced on us.

The reason why many people are probably drinking more currently is because of the abject misery of lockdown measures which our government continue to enforce. Seriously, the amount of debt and unemployment being forced on the average Joe against their will would drive them to drink and even worse.

This is like kicking someone when they are down. Any escape from the numbing effects of lockdown is being eroded by those in the Dail possibly, while drinking in the Dail bar.

Oh, the irony!

Thankfully, an end to these misery inducing lockdowns is in sight. However, even before the pandemic this was mooted and passed. So...

So true on every point unfortunately. I mean what the hell harm is some poor fecker doing buying a six pack of cheap beers on a Friday evening, or a couple who can't afford to get a babysitter on a Saturday night (or simply don't want to) cooking a meal in at home and having a bottle of wine when the kids go to bed. These people are being made to feel like alcoholics. That barrier entry into alcohol sections in shops is ridiculous. Though I do love giving the barrier a good, loud and proud thwack with the trolley as I go in

odyssey06

the beer revolu wrote: »

The government don't set the price of beers (or much else).
There is 0 duty on 0% beers.

How do you suggest that the price is fixed?

Is there not a certain element of price co-ordination going on in pubs... with stocking Heineken Zero at same price at full Heineken, even though zero attracts no excise?

Antares35

odyssey06 wrote: »

Is there not a certain element of price co-ordination going on in pubs... with stocking Heineken Zero at same price at full Heineken, even though zero attracts no excise?

Didn't they come up with some bull**** excuse before that it costs extra to remove the alcohol and that's why the prices are on par. We've come a long way from the "here's a free club orange for the designated driver"!

the beer revolu

odyssey06 wrote: »

Is there not a certain element of price co-ordination going on in pubs... with stocking Heineken Zero at same price at full Heineken, even though zero attracts no excise?

I don't know how the government could tackle this unless there is evidence of organised price fixing.
Pubs can charge as they see fit.

the beer revolu

Antares35 wrote: »

Didn't they come up with some bull**** excuse before that it costs extra to remove the alcohol and that's why the prices are on par. We've come a long way from the "here's a free club orange for the designated driver"!

It does cost more to produce alcohol free beer than regular beer. No mistruth there.
However, that difference would be way more than offset by the lack of duty on 0% beer.

Thelonious Monk

the beer revolu wrote: »

The government don't set the price of beers (or much else).
There is 0 duty on 0% beers.

How do you suggest that the price is fixed?

They are pretty dear for what they are, although Aldi do a great non alc IPA and a non alc lager called Rossini (both are 0.5% actually) and they are really good and priced at 1.20 and 99c for 500ml.

There are a few Irish craft beer places making non alc beers but they charge the same as their alcoholic ones so they can piss off.

ohnonotgmail

the beer revolu wrote: »

It does cost more to produce alcohol free beer than regular beer. No mistruth there.
However, that difference would be way more than offset by the lack of duty on 0% beer.

it is an amazing coincidence that the extra cost of producing alcohol free beer is almost exactly the same as the duty on alcohol.

odyssey06

the beer revolu wrote: »

I don't know how the government could tackle this unless there is evidence of organised price fixing.
Pubs can charge as they see fit.

The government constrains competition by limiting number of licenses and gives pub licensees a privileged position.

And yet supermarkets will not be allowed to charge as they see fit.

Strange they have no qualms about setting a minimum price for alcohol.
They want to reduce alcohol consumption.
Yet the thought of setting a maximum price for soft drinks when sold in a licensed premises or investigating why such soft drinks are priced so high is a bridge too far for them?

Antares35

odyssey06 wrote: »

They want to reduce alcohol consumption.
Yet the thought of setting a maximum price for soft drinks when sold in a licensed premises or investigating why such soft drinks are priced so high is a bridge too far for them?

Ireland has always been all stick and no carrot. It's like we just can't be trusted to do anything right.

Hotblack Desiato

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

They spend our taxes on NGOs which we didn't even ask for.

Most of those NGOs are religious and delivering public services and it's done because it's always been done that way. The public need to demand an end to it.

They formed a coalition against our wishes when the pandemic hit, an unvoted move.

This is stupid. The public never get a vote on what party goes into coalition with what other party/parties.

Any change to law or government to do with the people should be put to vote and not forced on us.

This is also stupid. We elect representatives to legislate.

The problem is that all political parties and all media appear to have been captured by the MUP bullshít peddlers.

Hotblack Desiato

the beer revolu wrote: »

I don't know how the government could tackle this unless there is evidence of organised price fixing.
Pubs can charge as they see fit.

Pubs have been fixing prices since time immemorial. Plenty of publicans have tried to be the guy who had a pint 5p / 10c or whatever cheaper than the rest in their town/area (why do the rest all have the same price in the first place?) and been forced to fall into line.

Antares35 wrote: »

That barrier entry into alcohol sections in shops is ridiculous. Though I do love giving the barrier a good, loud and proud thwack with the trolley as I go in

They are a monument to utter stupidity, it is frightening to think that people who govern us thought this was a wise, necessary and rational measure.

The door in my local Dunnes has been stuck open ever since the first few days and nobody has seen fit to close it :cool: