What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

is_that_so · 29-04-2021 06:43PM

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

If the EU will have no further need for the AZ vaccine why are they pursuing them through the courts to make sure they have a constant supply for the rest of the year ?
The EU didn't negotiate water-tight contracts.Everyon else, not just the Uk, did.
It really is as simple as that.

There are still a lot of missing stocks outstanding. I really don't have much interest in the legal sideshow, it'll do what it does. My own view is that a company who'll wave that best effort nonsense as an excuse for not being able to deliver is not worth doing business with. Meanwhile Pfizer delivered above and beyond what was expected.

The EU have already said they will not renew contracts with both AZ and J&J, more due to the minor issues with them and a preference for mRNA vaccines, but AZ wouldn't stand a chance anyway.

Tippbhoy1 · 29-04-2021 06:45PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

What nonsense.
AZ is our second most used vaccine in Ireland.
It got here ahead of Johnson et al and in more quantities than Moderna.

There is no basis to say we would be better off without AZ.
Absolutely zero.
It is so far detached from reality it is obvious you have an agenda against the vaccine that has nothing to do with it as a vaccine. It shows yoh have zero concern for the people the AZ vaccine is currently protecting in the EU.

You are welcome to your view.

The wealthier nations in the EU wanted to target more supply of the mRNA vaccines but the Eastern European members wanted the cheaper vaccine. If AZ never existed then there would have been bigger orders with Pfizer for a start, a company who actually can manage this. You only have to look at what has happened in the past three months and the scale Pfizer and Biontech have achieved since when they were asked to. Reverse back 6 months and we would be awash now if that order for AZ went to Pfizer.

This is the problem with people promising the world and not delivering, and lying along the way. It’s not just the cost of what they have failed to deliver, it’s also the cost of the alternative in parallel. Lads defending that joke of a company think “at cost” and “vaccines” for the world nonsense allows them to have a free pass when they have yet to even deliver on a fraction of what they said they would. As I’ve said before, all they had to do was say they messed up when they realised it and shared the loss among their customers. Nope couldn’t even do that, there shouldn’t be an Irish citizen defending them one iota as they have cost Irish lives, no doubt about it.

29-04-2021 06:46PM

is_that_so wrote: »

The narrative is that Hancock said No to Merck so if you have an alternative link please share.

He wasn’t happy with it, but there’s a lot more to it than that https://www.wsj.com/articles/oxford-developed-covid-vaccine-then-scholars-clashed-over-money-11603300412

Most of it is behind a paywall, but you’ll get the gist.

is_that_so · 29-04-2021 06:49PM

Aegir wrote: »

He wasn’t happy with it, but there’s a lot more to it than that https://www.wsj.com/articles/oxford-developed-covid-vaccine-then-scholars-clashed-over-money-11603300412

Most of it is behind a paywall, but you’ll get the gist.

Not all that scientific an approach at all from the bits that can be seen. Here's another more recent non-paywall WSJ piece which has other details, somewhat different ones. It's also a decent summary of their non-contract woes.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/03/26/vaccine-wars-developing-the-astrazeneca-vaccine-was-a-triumph-but-then-things-went-wrong/

odyssey06 · 29-04-2021 06:55PM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

You are welcome to your view.

The wealthier nations in the EU wanted to target more supply of the mRNA vaccines but the Eastern European members wanted the cheaper vaccine. If AZ never existed then there would have been bigger orders with Pfizer for a start, a company who actually can manage this. You only have to look at what has happened in the past three months and the scale Pfizer and Biontech have achieved since when they were asked to. Reverse back 6 months and we would be awash now if that order for AZ went to Pfizer.

This is the problem with people promising the world and not delivering, and lying along the way. It’s not just the cost of what they have failed to deliver, it’s also the cost of the alternative in parallel. Lads defending that joke of a company think “at cost” and “vaccines” for the world nonsense allows them to have a free pass when they have yet to even deliver on a fraction of what they said they would. As I’ve said before, all they had to do was say they messed up when they realised it and shared the loss among their customers. Nope couldn’t even do that, there shouldn’t be an Irish citizen defending them one iota as they have cost Irish lives, no doubt about it.

There was no extra Pfizer to be had.
Sure we could have put in a bigger order and still be waiting for them. Magical thinking there as if Pfizer had unlimited supply with more orders.

It has taken Pfizer time to ramp up in the real world. AZ was protecting Irish citizens from January.
AZ is currently protecting large numbers of EU citizens.

And several major vaccine companies failed in their vaccine development. We did not know how successful mRNA vaccines would be.
It was correct to place orders with AZ and Pfizer in case issues emerged with supply or effectiveness.

29-04-2021 06:58PM

is_that_so wrote: »

Not all that scientific an approach at all from the bits that can be seen. Here's another more recent non-paywall WSJ piece which has other details, somewhat different ones. It's also a decent summary of their non-contract woes.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/03/26/vaccine-wars-developing-the-astrazeneca-vaccine-was-a-triumph-but-then-things-went-wrong/

An opinion piece written by someone who is a member of the alternative sage?

I’m not sure I’d put much credence on that.

munchkin_utd · 29-04-2021 07:05PM

The Biontech (pfizer) plant in Marburg only sent its first deliveries out at the start of this month and by the end of June will have shipped 250million doses .
If you need to know why Pfizer/ Biontech is so important to the EU countries, thats it in numbers.

fly_agaric · 29-04-2021 07:26PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

There was no extra Pfizer to be had.
Sure we could have put in a bigger order and still be waiting for them. Magical thinking there as if Pfizer had unlimited supply with more orders.

It has taken Pfizer time to ramp up in the real world. AZ was protecting Irish citizens from January.
AZ is currently protecting large numbers of EU citizens.

And several major vaccine companies failed in their vaccine development. We did not know how successful mRNA vaccines would be.
It was correct to place orders with AZ and Pfizer in case issues emerged with supply or effectiveness.

I think the EU actually ordered much less Pfizer/Biontech than AZ in the first lot of agreements (only 200m vs 300m https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-eu-pfizer-idUSKBN28R19D) because AZ was cheaper (pushed for by the poorer E. and S. European states who also don't get any economic side benefits from the orders because the production is mostly in the wealthier W./N.), easier to use and looked like less of a risk, which is funny given how it has all turned out in the end/where we are now.

If AZ had admitted back then it may be too big a job or they would be committed to ensuring the UK was made whole first if anything went wrong, it might have forced the EUs hand to be more aggressive and faster with funding and support etc. regarding the others (like Pfizer). As you point out there's not an unlimited number of alternatives, and some failed along the way.

After all I think that is another criticism of the EUs programme (vs the US) that gets raised here, with the Eurosceptics liking to cite Verhofstadt. Not throwing enough money up front at these companies last year.

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

I'm tempted to agree.
Can you imagine the reaction if only a few short months ago someone had come on here and said basically meh, who cares about a vaccine that's going to protect huge numbers of Irish people and cost less than a pint each ?

For my part I'm not going meh, would be happy to get it if I could.
However the "at cost" thing is not quite as amazing a proposition for the EU as it was, assuming its already all paid for (?)
If AZ manage the reduced 100m target by end of June, the price per dose will be 3x what was expected. At the moment it is coming in at 10x what was expected (1/10 of order has been delivered so far). At end of the day its all minor in context of the economic costs of the pandemic though.

astrofool · 30-04-2021 12:35AM

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

209 cases of clots out of 22 million AZ vaccines ?

No wonder Brits are still queueing up in their millions to get the shot with odds as low as that.

You've got more chance of being hit by Lord Lucan riding Shergar as you cross the road to get to the vaxx centre than getting serious side-effects.

It still remains the vaccine of choice for more than 100 countries around the world.

A low-cost life-saver bringing vital protection to tens of millions of people.

You have roughly a 1 in 14.6 million chance of getting hit by a car on a given encounter with a car, your scenario is obviously several orders of magnitude less likely than that again.

Timberrrrrrrr · 30-04-2021 05:18AM

astrofool wrote: »

You have roughly a 1 in 14.6 million chance of getting hit by a car on a given encounter with a car, your scenario is obviously several orders of magnitude less likely than that again.

Love to know where you got that number from

http://www.bandolier.org.uk/booth/Risk/trasnsportpop.html

The lifetime risk of dying in a transport accident is remarkably high - with most of the risk coming from road traffic accidents. While the risk of dying in a road accident in any year in the UK approaches 1 in 20,000, the lifetime risk is 1 in 240.

30-04-2021 07:50AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Once again this won’t be vaccinating the world between AZ not being able to produce a fraction of what was promised and all the hesitation they created and now governments restricting it

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/calls-tackle-vaccine-hesitancy-african-union-drops-astrazeneca-2021-04-10/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/16/world/vaccine-hesitancy-africa.html

Despite all the promises made in uk tabloids which some here bought as gospel and keep regurgitating the reality is that AZ will not vaccinate the world, hell in end I bet UK will have to either give mRNA booster shots in few months or maybe endup in another wave as it’s shown itself not to be so great against new variants such as Indian one which is already spreading in uk

Do you ever stop with this sort of rubbish?

https://www.businesstoday.in/coronavirus/covishield-covaxin-protect-indian-strain-covid-19-preliminary/story/437728.html

odyssey06 · 30-04-2021 07:57AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Once again this won’t be vaccinating the world between AZ not being able to produce a fraction of what was promised and all the hesitation they created and now governments restricting it

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/calls-tackle-vaccine-hesitancy-african-union-drops-astrazeneca-2021-04-10/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/16/world/vaccine-hesitancy-africa.html

Despite all the promises made in uk tabloids which some here bought as gospel and keep regurgitating the reality is that AZ will not vaccinate the world, hell in end I bet UK will have to either give mRNA booster shots in few months or maybe endup in another wave as it’s shown itself not to be so great against new variants such as Indian one which is already spreading in uk

Please provide a source for your claim re: AZ and the Indian variant.
Without such justification, it appears you are spreading fake news about the AZ vaccine.
You are peddling the line that the AZ vaccine is not effective against those variants and that's impacting case numbers in India and UK. I am not aware of any such evidence to justify that. It appears to be used by you purely as the basis for a rant about the UK, when it's pretty obvious that is your agenda from all along.
If you are going to make such a claim, back it up or it's garbage.

Covishield, Covaxin effective against 'Indian strain' of coronavirus: Report
The B.1.617 variant is also being called a 'double mutant' or the 'Indian strain'
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/covishield-covaxin-effective-against-indian-strain-of-coronavirus-report-101619537999479.html

is_that_so · 30-04-2021 07:58AM

Aegir wrote: »

An opinion piece written by someone who is a member of the alternative sage?

I’m not sure I’d put much credence on that.

Much of what is said there about AZ can be confirmed from many other sources unless credence here means only sources that you agree with.

odyssey06 · 30-04-2021 08:03AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

There are vaccines expiring because people in Africa don’t want AZ and worse it’s already leading to hesitation against all other vaccines, it’s actively dangerous in that manner as documented in links I posted

The issues affecting AZ are present in non-mRNA vaccines. J&J also linked to clotting incidents. We don't have the luxury of an unlimited readily available mRNA vaccines that can be easily rolled out.
AZ and J&J are saving lives right now.

It's not actively dangerous, the benefits of AZ far outweigh the risks unless you fall for the hatchet job being done on AZ. If you want to talk about vaccine hesitancy talk about those unfounded hatchet jobs.

odyssey06 · 30-04-2021 08:05AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

This preliminary study is nowhere to be seen published just references in tabloids

Where is the source for your claim about AZ being ineffective about Indian variant? It is your claim. It appears to be fake news.

robinph · 30-04-2021 08:07AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Once again this won’t be vaccinating the world between AZ not being able to produce a fraction of what was promised and all the hesitation they created and now governments restricting it

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/calls-tackle-vaccine-hesitancy-african-union-drops-astrazeneca-2021-04-10/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/16/world/vaccine-hesitancy-africa.html

Despite all the promises made in uk tabloids which some here bought as gospel and keep regurgitating the reality is that AZ will not vaccinate the world, hell in end I bet UK will have to either give mRNA booster shots in few months or maybe endup in another wave as it’s shown itself not to be so great against new variants such as Indian one which is already spreading in uk

If anything AZ vaccine is proving itself to be actively anti beneficial by creating vaccine hesitation world wide

Nothing in those articles about Astra Zeneca hesitancy. Just that general vaccine hesitancy is wide spread in various African countries, and then seperatly the African Union has decided to purchase different brands than Astra Zeneca so that they have a spread of different versions of vaccination available seeing as the Covax supplies are from Astra Zeneca.

Prefectly sensible idea, and exactly the same as the EU, the UK and USA have done with ordering from multiple different manufacturers. Nothing out of order or strange going on.

odyssey06 · 30-04-2021 08:11AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. In meantime the articles I linked in reputable non tabloids show that AZ vaccines are expiring in African countries as people don’t want it, like I said it won’t be treating the world that has proven to be a lie just like the production figures have also shown themselves to be dangerous lies which resulted in diverting attention from much better vaccines AZ is actively anti productive now

Anti-productive? Meanwhile AZ is saving lives in the UK, EU and India.
There are dangerous lies on this thread alright.

munchkin_utd · 30-04-2021 08:15AM

odyssey06 wrote: »

Anti-productive? Meanwhile AZ is saving lives in the UK, EU and India.
There are dangerous lies on this thread alright.

theres 1 in a million chance of getting a dangerous brain clot and dieing from AZ, and that seemingly preventable if you spot the symptoms, and that very much biased towards younger and female people

on the other hand you have 1 in 400 chance of dieing from covid at the age of 60, no matter how hard to try to treat it, and the death rises rapidly as you go up the age brackets

The AZ vaccine is safe, getting Covid and hoping for the best isnt

30-04-2021 08:18AM

is_that_so wrote: »

Much of what is said there about AZ can be confirmed from many other sources unless credence here means only sources that you agree with.

sources that you can link to?

you only gave one in reality, which was a bit of bravado from Sky News and repeated by that opinion piece you gave.

What you have to remember, is that the agreements with Halix, Oxford Biomedica/VMIC and the Serum Institute of India were already in place before Merck got involved.

The Oxford/Jenner institute ideal of a vaccine that could be mass produced at any facility that wanted to, at a price point that makes it affordable may not have been ideal for Merck. They may have wanted to manufacture it all themselves in their own plants, which is why they walked away long before AZ were involved.

odyssey06 · 30-04-2021 08:25AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

You don’t see how time and money wasted on AZ lies have been counter productive? And now all the hesitation created by issues with clotting and effacacy?
Americans still haven’t approved it and are flying it by concentrating on good vaccines

That's a luxury they can afford given they have an export ban, huge pharmaceutical capacity and are getting vaccine components from the EU.
They are using J&J and Moderna instead. Which is why the rest of the world has only seen them in small quantities.
There was also hesitation in the use of J&J over clotting too wasn't there?

So it's simply a fantasy to think the US approach was scaleable by the rest of the world in the first half of 2021.

Meanwhile in the real world, AZ is saving lives right now.
It may well be superseded by other vaccines but in the first half of 2021 it is here and saving lives.

is_that_so · 30-04-2021 08:28AM

Aegir wrote: »

sources that you can link to?

you only gave one in reality, which was a bit of bravado from Sky News and repeated by that opinion piece you gave.

What you have to remember, is that the agreements with Halix, Oxford Biomedica/VMIC and the Serum Institute of India were already in place before Merck got involved.

The Oxford/Jenner institute ideal of a vaccine that could be mass produced at any facility that wanted to, at a price point that makes it affordable may not have been ideal for Merck. They may have wanted to manufacture it all themselves in their own plants, which is why they walked away long before AZ were involved.

And your source is a paywall version with a version of the story not reported anywhere else. Regardless of how it all transpired their chosen partner has proved to be something of a disaster. One would have expected a company like Merck to run trials and production in a far less chaotic manner.

odyssey06 · 30-04-2021 08:47AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

So long winded way of saying “oh now that I think of it yeh you right it won’t be saving the world from Covid and we were sold another like by uk tabloids”

The EUs mistake was falling for the sales pitch and lies of these shysters

You seem to be battling a straw man argument against the UK tabloids, with AZ as the battlefield.
No wonder you think you are right.

It seems to have blinded you to a rational appraisal of AZ versus other vaccines.
GSK & Sanofi's vaccine never materialised.
Moderna and J&J are only making a difference so far in the US.
AZ is saving people all across the globe from covid right now.

30-04-2021 08:50AM

is_that_so wrote: »

And your source is a paywall version with a version of the story not reported anywhere else. Regardless of how it all transpired their chosen partner has proved to be something of a disaster. One would have expected a company like Merck to run trials and production in a far less chaotic manner.

AZ didn’t run the trials.

is_that_so · 30-04-2021 08:51AM

Aegir wrote: »

AZ didn’t run the trials.

They reported the trial data, a somewhat shambolic exercise both times.

astrofool · 30-04-2021 08:52AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Love to know where you got that number from

http://www.bandolier.org.uk/booth/Risk/trasnsportpop.html

Because your chances are done per year or per lifetime where there are thousands of opportunities for an accident to happen.

If we interact with a car once a day (probably low) and the chances of being in an accident are 1/40,000, then the chance of being in an accident on a given encounter with a car is 365*40,000 (adjust numbers to whichever timeframe and stats you want).

Why this is important and why comparing car risk with vaccines isn't correct is because there are only 2 vaccine events that occur (the injections), so the risk per event is much higher (but still very low).

30-04-2021 09:07AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

His point is that this trial is not published anywhere and only mentioned in tabloids referencing each other with no figures to be seen, we don’t know if it’s a figment of someone’s imagination

Mind you SputnikV had great published trials too and now both Slovakia and Brazil reporting that vaccines they received do not match what was published, mind you that’s Russians they lie about everything

so the MHRA and the EMA approved the vaccine based on an article in a newspaper?

Have they also sent a mission to the moon looking for Elvis?

odyssey06 · 30-04-2021 09:20AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

What? I’m pointing out that reports of efficacy of AZ against Indian variant are vapourware

We're still waiting on the sources for your 'claim' that AZ isn't effective agaisnt Indian variant, or is in some way less effective than other similar profile non-mRNA vaccines.
And by 'claim', I mean what appears to be 'fake news' you are spinning against AZ. So you seem well acquainted with 'vapourware'.

odyssey06 · 30-04-2021 09:44AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Points at India

Points at India? That's not an argument.
That just shows how intellectually dishonest and bankrupt your argument is.
The vast majority of India's population is not vaccinated.

You have zero data for your claim.
You then turn around and accuse posters of peddling 'vapourware' when your fake news claims are challenged.

This is an utterly contemptible argument.

You've been spreading fake news about AZ based on no foundation.

There is zero evidence what's happening in India is do with AZ being ineffective.

You've been asked to justify your claims and you have nothing. It's fake news you have fabricated.

fly_agaric · 30-04-2021 09:53AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Points at India

Don't think we can do that. Very low % vaccinatinated and that country is so corrupt it makes me doubt effectiveness of vaccinations that have been done.
Is it going to those that need it most/most likely to get sick or die from Covid, or those who can pay the most or grease right palms?

One thing that's interesting is people on the thread claiming the giant volumes that SII produce and have been put to use in India and exported as a great global success for "AstraZeneca". I know it is the same vaccine under a different name and they have UK/Oxford to thank for the IP and being allowed to produce it, but how deep is the connection between SII and AstraZeneca/what is the relationship there?

munchkin_utd · 30-04-2021 10:03AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I hope you are right, but that means putting trust in a vaccine and manufacturer that constantly lied about everything, with those lies further spun by media and politicians of a certain neighbouring authoritarian country next door who are lording over a large pile of Covid bones

the AZ vaccine works on all variants and will stop you from dieing, and for me the choice between dieing from covid OR take an AZ vaccine and if you get covid deal with a runny nose but not dieing, is a fairly easy choice

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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