What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

Charles Babbage

Aegir wrote: »

I’m in Ireland and getting increasingly frustrated at watching friends and family back home all get a vaccine, while here there still seems to be no form of a mass vaccine roll out. Just the usual nepotism and cronyism.

There are 125,000 people that work for the HSE and they managed to vaccinate the 235,000 that work on the front line.

That’s banana republic stuff.

they did more than 1% of the adult population on several days last week, you can hardly say that there is "no sign" of a rollout.

I'm sure there is scope for criticism but fact free ranting is a waste of your time and ours.

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

Except this narrative ended up being codswallop, one of the UK plants hadn't reached significant volume leading to a shortfall that was being made up by Halix in the Netherlands, which then lead to the UK announcing a dip in supplies on the same day as the EU started putting export controls on vaccines (and the UK is still being secretive about the manufacturing origin of it's vaccines unlike the EU). It wasn't so much capitalism and expertise as bluffing and cover-ups (which basically describes Boris Johnson's tenure in no. 10 down to a tee).

I'm guessing the lawsuit will lay this all bare.

"The AstraZeneca vaccine is sourced from two UK sites, in Oxford and Keele Science Park, Staffordshire, along with the Serum Institute of India and the Halix plant in the Dutch city of Leiden. The UK sites have, however, suffered yield problems, leaving the UK with only 30% of expected deliveries in this first quarter."

The Vast vast majority of the UK deliveries have come from Oxford Biomedica. If the UK hadn’t paid for this facility to be set up, there would be a lot less vaccines in Europe.

brickster69

robinph wrote: »

So it is about ensuring the UK comes off worse then?

There were claims of all the UK supply being from the EU, the only reason that the EU weren't using it because the UK was stealing vaccines, somehow doses were going missing from the EU and ending up in the UK.

The UK didn't actually say anything for unknown reasons at that point, then the EU said there was only actually 1 million doses which went to the UK, then the EU found some more in Italy and complained about those going to the UK, except they were for the EU and Australia.

There is some weird stuff going on, but the UK hasn't been stealing EU doses. Astra Zeneca might have some explaining regarding how they have shared doses out, but that's got nothing to do with the UK and not entirely sure how you'd resolve an issue between if a UK contract based on UK law takes precedent over an EU one on Belgian law anyway.

The EU can scream and shout and stomp their feet as much as they like, it won't make vaccines appear though.

And those 1 mln were sent from EU after being filled and finished after the raw material was sent from the UK. Same as the Covax order for 9 mln which the raw material was sent from outside the EU for finishing and discovered hidden during an armed Italian army raid.

So those 10 mln were not produced in the EU just bottled.

brickster69

astrofool wrote: »

Except this narrative ended up being codswallop, one of the UK plants hadn't reached significant volume leading to a shortfall that was being made up by Halix in the Netherlands, which then lead to the UK announcing a dip in supplies on the same day as the EU started putting export controls on vaccines (and the UK is still being secretive about the manufacturing origin of it's vaccines unlike the EU). It wasn't so much capitalism and expertise as bluffing and cover-ups (which basically describes Boris Johnson's tenure in no. 10 down to a tee).

I'm guessing the lawsuit will lay this all bare.

"The AstraZeneca vaccine is sourced from two UK sites, in Oxford and Keele Science Park, Staffordshire, along with the Serum Institute of India and the Halix plant in the Dutch city of Leiden. The UK sites have, however, suffered yield problems, leaving the UK with only 30% of expected deliveries in this first quarter."

And who invested the money in the Halix factory to produce the vaccines 1 year ago. And who were asked to contribute funds towards it but refused so UK taxpayers pumped more into it ?

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/03/dutch-had-chance-to-invest-in-leiden-vaccine-maker-halix-nos/

robinph

astrofool wrote: »

... (and the UK is still being secretive about the manufacturing origin of it's vaccines unlike the EU)....

That is wierd to keep quiet, but the UK has kept unusually quiet at lots of points.

We know that the vaccine is made in the EU, but the EU has only sent 1 million doses to the UK and those were potentially made in the UK first anyway.
There has also been 5 million from India, but then they didn't send the next 5 million. We can assume that there hasn't been anymore from India can't we?

So that leaves at least another 20 million doses that have been put in people's arms in the UK and they had to come from somewhere else. It's not from the US either, so most likely it has been from the UK unless there is some other major manufacturing site in another country that nobody knows about yet and the UK factory's are all just sat idle.

It's odd for the UK to not be shouting about it, but the simple answer would be that the vast majority of the doses in the UK were made in the UK. But that capacity is still less than the EU has made/ had delivered from elsewhere.

fly_agaric

robinph wrote: »

Not sure about the "a lot less" line. UK has had 25m or so (could be 30m by now) , and the EU has had 30m. How are you defining "less"?
Percentage of order? Percentage of population?

% of order makes most sense to me really.
The total is 400m (300m EU/100m UK)

If we use your earlier estimated figures of 25m supplied to UK and 30m to EU, the UK is at ~ 25 % of order completed. It is roughly on track to be filled by year end if that rate keeps up even if company missed the extremely optimistic targets they originally set for UK that you quoted from an older article.
The EU is at 10 % complete (with no chance of completion by the expected date of July and little chance by end of the year either IMO).

Looking at how AZ distributed the ~ 55m vaccines between the EU/UK it has provided 45 % of these to its UK Customer despite the UK order only being for 25 % of EU/UK total. So yes, the UK has been privileged to my mind.

Now, if the UK were still in the EU, but all other things were the same (except the UK going alone + making a "side order" to AZ for 100m doses, while the rest of the member states order 300m from the same company under a collective programme) I don't think this situation would have stood.
Whether you or others think it fair (given it's the "Oxford"/UK vaccine - UK deserves the lion's share etc etc) the UK would have been under huge pressure to "share" the shortfall and kept 1/4 of the total I think, ~ 14 m doses. That would have had a very large impact on the UK programme (vs what has happened given fact of Brexit) but as you've pointed out a fairly negligible one on the EUs (as a whole). Ireland would have gotten about 110k extra AZ doses to date I think based on 1 % of the extra 11m to the EU. Minor in scheme of a ~450m population and shortfalls running to 100s of millions of doses, but very important perhaps to the 50-100k extra people here vaccinated with these 1-2 doses.

Hamsterchops

I don't want the AstraZenica vaccine, I just don't trust it 100%.

I want the BioNTech-Pfizer jab instead, not that I'll get a choice, but if I did, I'd avoid the Astra Zenica (just in case).

JoChervil

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I don't want the AstraZenica vaccine, I just don't trust it 100%.

I want the BioNTech-Pfizer jab instead, not that I'll get a choice, but if I did, I'd avoid the Astra Zenica (just in case).

So why you trust Pfizer? AstraZeneca had 5 per 1 million clotting incidents, while Pfeizer and Moderna together 4 cases per 1 million. While the first research was made in Europe, the second in USA, so they can't even be comparable.

https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1005

deeperlearning

JoChervil, your figures are rubbish.


Speaking of unused vaccines, the US are now offloading 60 million AstraZeneca vaccines to other countries:
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/26/covid-vaccine-us-to-share-60-million-astrazeneca-doses-with-other-countries.html

It looks like the US has no intention of approving or using the AstraZeneca vaccine in the coming months.

Ollie Cromwell

Being sued by the EU whilst making no profit from a low-cost vaccine that will inoculate hundreds of millions of poor people in third world countries which can't afford any other jab.
You can see why AstraZeneca regrets getting involved.

is_that_so

Ollie Cromwell wrote: »

Being sued by the EU whilst making no profit from a low-cost vaccine that will inoculate hundreds of millions of poor people in third world countries which can't afford any other jab.
You can see why AstraZeneca regrets getting involved.

They jumped at the chance to be involved and promised the world. Their performance since then, outside of the UK, has been fairly calamitous on production and deliveries and they are unlikely to even seek approval from the FDA. It'll make an interesting case study on an MBA course in a few years!

odyssey06

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Keep in mind India is largest population that used AZ up to now and look at disaster there, we probably will learn soon its useless against that new variant

If you have data that shows the problems in India are to due to waves hitting vaccinated people and causing breakthrough infections leading to hospitalisations, please share it.
Otherwise this is utterly without foundation.

Tippbhoy1

odyssey06 wrote: »

If you have data that shows the problems in India are to due to waves hitting vaccinated people and causing breakthrough infections leading to hospitalisations, please share it.
Otherwise this is utterly without foundation.

I heard somewhere that it was “quasi” effective.

If the British Oxford AZ vaccine was a car, it would be the Austin Mini, yesterday’s car, today.

brickster69

AZ statement

https://twitter.com/antoguerrera/status/1386657244696170499

odyssey06

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

I heard somewhere that it was “quasi” effective.

If the British Oxford AZ vaccine was a car, it would be the Austin Mini, yesterday’s car, today.

If that had been a French vaccine there is zero chance Macron would have come out with that quasi gibberish.
Where is the French vaccine btw?

Strange if the vaccine is only quasi effective why are the EU even bothering to chase AZ up on those orders?

Pfizer is a more effective vaccine and suitable for all ages.
Moderna is effective but in tiny numbers.
Johnson and Johnson is only coming on stream now in real quantities AND it has age restrictions in many countries, like AZ.

But AZ has been available in more quantities than any other vaccine except Pfizer, since December, saving lives and reducing transmission.
You have to fight the war with the weapons you have, and we are much better off with AZ in our arsenal than without it.

Bass Reeves

It's Oxford I feel sorry for. They developed a relatively cost effective vaccine which would be suitable for poorer countries. They were partnering with Merke Sharpe Dome but the British government wanted a ''British company'' involved. It was know as the British Vaccine in the UK.

AZ had not got the skills set to produce and distribute such a vaccine. They never were involved in vaccine development, manufacturing or testing before. Oxford should never have allowed the British government to dictate who they licenced it to.

In a way I think the EU should not have sued at this time. The reason being it bring the Ox/AZ vaccine into disrepute while it may not be a perfect vaccine if we had nothing else we would be glad of it.

I am in my late 50's so I be getting AZ or J&J. I will take whatever I can get hopefully in 4-5 weeks we can open up a good bit of the country

Ollie Cromwell

is_that_so wrote: »

They jumped at the chance to be involved and promised the world. Their performance since then, outside of the UK, has been fairly calamitous on production and deliveries and they are unlikely to even seek approval from the FDA. It'll make an interesting case study on an MBA course in a few years!

If you think AZ jumped at the chance to produce a vaccine with no profit in it for them you don't really understand big pharma that well.

odyssey06

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

More quantities where? Just UK and India have AZ as majority, one is a basket case now, the other one will be again come autumn, “just pile up the bones” - Boris would probably blame EU for that, bookmark this post

For all the promises made of vaccinating the world at this rate of production and under delivery it take decade, and there’s already reports of Africans refusing it

What part of this don't you understand?
AZ has been available in more quantities than any other vaccine except Pfizer, since December, saving lives and reducing transmission.

AZ is 20% of Ireland's vaccine rollout so far.
Moderna is 5%.
Johnson and Johnson is 0%.

Would Ireland be better off right now without that 20% AZ?
What magic vaccine would we be using instead?

Your comments about India and UK facing disaster because of AZ are utterly without merit or foundation. It's obvious here there is an agenda in play that is not grounded in any data. India are facing disaster because of their vast population. The problem isn't AZ. The problem is not enough vaccines full stop coupled with loosening of restrictions. Again, what magic vaccine could India have produced instead of AZ to help them right now in quantities that data shows would make a difference?

Ollie Cromwell

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It's Oxford I feel sorry for. They developed a relatively cost effective vaccine which would be suitable for poorer countries. They were partnering with Merke Sharpe Dome but the British government wanted a ''British company'' involved. It was know as the British Vaccine in the UK.

AZ had not got the skills set to produce and distribute such a vaccine. They never were involved in vaccine development, manufacturing or testing before. Oxford should never have allowed the British government to dictate who they licenced it to.

In a way I think the EU should not have sued at this time. The reason being it bring the Ox/AZ vaccine into disrepute while it may not be a perfect vaccine if we had nothing else we would be glad of it.

I am in my late 50's so I be getting AZ or J&J. I will take whatever I can get hopefully in 4-5 weeks we can open up a good bit of the country

Britain wanted a British company involved because at the time Donald Trump was circling and Merke wouldn't provide the guarantees on delivery and costs that were required.
A brilliant piece of foresight by Health Secretary Matt Hancock.

Ollie Cromwell

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

It wasn’t the British government who pressured them into it (tho I’m sure there was pressure) Jenner institute chose AZ for cronyism reasons, one of their top honchos worked there previously, turning down companies with more experience.

The painting of the Union Jack onto bottles and equation of brexit to this vaccine came much later with British government and their media lapdogs organising a campaign to distract from the needless 70000 people big pile of bones

Is it any different from Ireland wanting its name on any humanitarian aid it sends around the world ?
British people would be mightily proud to see a union flag on a low cost vaccine being sent to poor countries around the world.
Especially as it has donated £735million to the Covax programme to supply these countries with jabs.
Ireland by the way could only manage a measly 5 million.
Even TikTok managed twice that amount.
The Union Jacks were never put in the bottles.

Tippbhoy1

Ollie Cromwell wrote: »

If you think AZ jumped at the chance to produce a vaccine with no profit in it for them you don't really understand big pharma that well.

You seem to be mistaking AZ for big pharma, if that’s the starting basis for your argument I can see why you’re gone off track. What’s laughable here is AZ licenced to the SII, who in a shorter space of time have produced vastly more than AZ could produce this side of the world. Maybe they should ask the SII for some manufacturing support.

robinph

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

More quantities where? Just UK and India have AZ as majority, one is a basket case now, the other one will be again come autumn, “just pile up the bones” - Boris would probably blame EU for that, bookmark this post

For all the promises made of vaccinating the world at this rate of production and under delivery it take decade, and there’s already reports of Africans refusing it

Currently at 140 million people vaccinated in India, think they are still only using Astra Zeneca. Thing is that is still only 8% of the population, and its more than a bit crowded in India so I'd guess that any form of social distancing or lockdowns or working from home and always standing 2 meters apart in the supermarket and only socialising over Zoom are a bit tricky. We're lucky that we can easily use other methods to try and reduce the infection rates, India is not so lucky as it's tough to get 1 billion plus poorer people to socially distance.

The vaccine is one of the few tools that they have to get things under control and even with the massive manufacturing capacity they have it's a long way short.

Ollie Cromwell

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Remind us again how many vaccines EU (of which Ireland is a member last i checked) actually sent to Covax * versus UK (somewhere around negative zero)

You lot may as well paint promises on sides of buses and drive it up and down the isle, while we actually help the world.

* Tho as per Economist's latest report some of these countries only using half the vaccines they got as people in Africa dont want AZ vaccine.

Actually the UK was the largest single donor to COVAX long before the EU was involved.
Of course you may recall the EU had its own vaccine difficulties at the time ...

Ollie Cromwell

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

I heard somewhere that it was “quasi” effective.

If the British Oxford AZ vaccine was a car, it would be the Austin Mini, yesterday’s car, today.

Given the massively successful rollout of the AZ in the UK it would need a very powerful rear-view mirror to catch any glimpse of the EU in their Citreons and BMWs ...

Ollie Cromwell

odyssey06 wrote: »

If that had been a French vaccine there is zero chance Macron would have come out with that quasi gibberish.
Where is the French vaccine btw?

Strange if the vaccine is only quasi effective why are the EU even bothering to chase AZ up on those orders?

Pfizer is a more effective vaccine and suitable for all ages.
Moderna is effective but in tiny numbers.
Johnson and Johnson is only coming on stream now in real quantities AND it has age restrictions in many countries, like AZ.

But AZ has been available in more quantities than any other vaccine except Pfizer, since December, saving lives and reducing transmission.
You have to fight the war with the weapons you have, and we are much better off with AZ in our arsenal than without it.

Indeed.
Amazing how many people are AZ sceptics right up until the point they're offered it.
Especially when they see the beaches of the Southern Mediterranean opening up ...

fly_agaric

robinph wrote: »

Currently at 140 million people vaccinated in India, think they are still only using Astra Zeneca. Thing is that is still only 8% of the population, and its more than a bit crowded in India so I'd guess that any form of social distancing or lockdowns or working from home and always standing 2 meters apart in the supermarket and only socialising over Zoom are a bit tricky. We're lucky that we can easily use other methods to try and reduce the infection rates, India is not so lucky as it's tough to get 1 billion plus poorer people to socially distance.

The vaccine is one of the few tools that they have to get things under control and even with the massive manufacturing capacity they have it's a long way short.

They seem to have a domestically developed one they are using as well (Covaxin).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-55748124

I don't know what proportion AstraZenecas vaccine (Covishield) makes up of the doses administered, probably most of it given how large a producer SII seems to be, but it is not 100 %.

robinph

fly_agaric wrote: »

They seem to have a domestically developed one they are using as well (Covaxin).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-55748124

I don't know what proportion AstraZenecas vaccine (Covishield) makes up of the doses administered, probably most of it given how large a producer SII seems to be, but it is not 100 %.

There was quite a variation in numbers I saw across a few different sites, and some very dodgy Google translation of some Hindu text I think which made it tricky to figure out what numbers meant what. There is definitely a shed load of Astra Zeneca vaccines been used in India though, unfortunately regarding the ratio of the population it's still a tiny number actually vaccinated and they needed those doses in arms 3 months ago as they don't really have the effective option of lockdown and working from home to suppress things.

The UK was lucky that vaccines came on stream when people were stuck at home, numbers were high and so motivation to get jabbed was also high (and remains so in the younger ages by the looks of things). India now getting hit with the UK variant, which the vaccine does work against, but getting a significant portion of the population jabbed is far trickier and the cases will continue to rise until it naturally burns itself out around the same point vaccines start to have an effect on numbers.

Strazdas

Ollie Cromwell wrote: »

Britain wanted a British company involved because at the time Donald Trump was circling and Merke wouldn't provide the guarantees on delivery and costs that were required.
A brilliant piece of foresight by Health Secretary Matt Hancock.

That part is actually true - but AZ have been a terrible disappointment as a company, a poor supplier.

This should have been evident to everyone in Britain, but was covered up by the English right wing press in order to boost their man Johnson. Heavily ironic given that they now seem to have turned on him and now want him gone (for other reasons) only a few short weeks later.

fly_agaric

robinph wrote: »

There was quite a variation in numbers I saw across a few different sites, and some very dodgy Google translation of some Hindu text I think which made it tricky to figure out what numbers meant what. There is definitely a shed load of Astra Zeneca vaccines been used in India though, unfortunately regarding the ratio of the population it's still a tiny number actually vaccinated and they needed those doses in arms 3 months ago as they don't really have the effective option of lockdown and working from home to suppress things.

I was curious + searched and found a figure that would suggest it is ~ 80 % (based on your 140m total) but I never heard of this source so

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/features/covishield-india-vaccine-astrazeneca/

At over 112 million doses so far, India has administered the most AZ shots – labelled there as Covishield – in the world.

robinph wrote: »

The UK was lucky that vaccines came on stream when people were stuck at home, numbers were high and so motivation to get jabbed was also high (and remains so in the younger ages by the looks of things). India now getting hit with the UK variant, which the vaccine does work against, but getting a significant portion of the population jabbed is far trickier and the cases will continue to rise until it naturally burns itself out around the same point vaccines start to have an effect on numbers.

That's true. I only can speak for what I read online as regards India but it does sound like there was a problem with the Central govt. not taking the disease very seriously & people also thinking it was going away so no need to be careful any more; lets go back to normal. It's been a recurring thing throughout this (badly hit countries like US and Brazil and to a lesser extent UK (Boris Johnson in the early days) with right wing populist leaders whose "world view" makes them blind to the dangers until the country starts to get hammered + reality cannot be denied any more)

correct horse battery staple

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

It wasn’t the British government who pressured them into it (tho I’m sure there was pressure) Jenner institute chose AZ for cronyism reasons, one of their top honchos worked there previously, turning down companies with more experience.

The painting of the Union Jack onto bottles and equation of brexit to this vaccine came much later with British government and their media lapdogs organising a campaign to distract from the needless 70000 people big pile of bones

Your posts get increasingly more and more bat**** crazy