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Ex paratroopers deny murder of Joe McCann

  • 26-04-2021 9:26pm
    #1
    Marco23d
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭


    McCann was killed by the British army on 15 April 1972 in Joy St in The Markets.

    From 3–5 July 1970, McCann was involved in gun battles during the Falls Curfew between the Official IRA and up to 3,000 British soldiers in the Lower Falls area that left four civilians killed by the army and 60 soldiers, civilians and IRA men injured.

    His most famous act came on 9 August 1971 when his unit took over the Inglis bakery in the Markets area and fortified it after the introduction of internment without trial by the Northern Ireland authorities (see Operation Demetrius). They defended it throughout the night from an incursion by 600 British soldiers, looking to arrest paramilitary suspects.

    The action allowed other IRA members to slip out of the area and avoid arrest. He was photographed during the incident, holding an M1 carbine, against the background of a burning building and the Starry Plough flag, one of the most striking early images of The Troubles.

    He was known for his complete opposition to sectarianism knowing that is what MI5/MI6 were trying to achieve.


«134567

Comments

  • #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    So he was an active member of the IRA?


  • #3
    Stihl waters
    Registered Users Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Stihl waters


    Was he shot on active duty or apprehended and executed in revenge


  • #4
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Aegir wrote: »
    So he was an active member of the IRA?

    The Officials. Not the Provos.


  • #5
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,951 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    I just read he might have killed up to 15 soldiers, so all's fair in war and war, no?


  • #6
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,396 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Stihl waters wrote: »
    Was he shot on active duty or apprehended and executed in revenge

    He killed up to 15 people, he was shot while attempting to escape while being arrested. He was one of the top people on the IRA army Council.


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  • #7
    Marco23d
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭Marco23d


    Stihl waters wrote: »
    Was he shot on active duty or apprehended and executed in revenge

    He was spotted by an army patrol chased and shot while he was running away unarmed he was supposedly Britain's most wanted man at the time.


  • #8
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Sounds like he was no Saint.

    not that he deserved to be shot.


  • #9
    Stihl waters
    Registered Users Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Stihl waters


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    He killed up to 15 people, he was shot while attempting to escape while being arrested. He was one of the top people on the IRA army Council.

    People or soldiers(also people I realise) but a difference imo where shooting soldiers was a legitimate course of action and targeting innocent Protestants/Catholics in random bomb attacks was an act of cowardice


  • #10
    Marco23d
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭Marco23d


    Stihl waters wrote: »
    People or soldiers(also people I realise) but a difference imo where shooting soldiers was a legitimate course of action and targeting innocent Protestants/Catholics in random bomb attacks was an act of cowardice

    He targeted soldiers and politicians he was completely against even attacking loyalist paramilitaries.

    In 1971 McCann led a unit which captured three UVF members in Sandy Row. The UVF had raided an OIRA arms dump earlier that day and the OIRA announced they would execute the three prisoners if the weapons were not returned. McCann eventually released the three UVF members because they were "working class men like yourself".[


  • #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Marco23d wrote: »
    He targeted soldiers and politicians he was completely against even attacking loyalist paramilitaries.

    In 1971 McCann led a unit which captured three UVF members in Sandy Row. The UVF had raided an OIRA arms dump earlier that day and the OIRA announced they would execute the three prisoners if the weapons were not returned. McCann eventually released the three UVF members because they were "working class men like yourself".[

    He murdered people and ended up getting targeted himself.

    Sorry for his friends and family, but live by the sword......


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  • #12
    Stihl waters
    Registered Users Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Stihl waters


    Aegir wrote: »
    He murdered people and ended up getting targeted himself.

    Sorry for his friends and family, but live by the sword......

    Theres a difference in killing British soldiers and murdering civilians, was he involved in the murder of civilians


  • #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Stihl waters wrote: »
    Theres a difference in killing British soldiers and murdering civilians, was he involved in the murder of civilians

    So his killing British soldiers is legitimate, but them killing him is murder.

    Is that what you’re saying?


  • #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Marco23d wrote: »
    He targeted soldiers and politicians he was completely against even attacking loyalist paramilitaries.

    In 1971 McCann led a unit which captured three UVF members in Sandy Row. The UVF had raided an OIRA arms dump earlier that day and the OIRA announced they would execute the three prisoners if the weapons were not returned. McCann eventually released the three UVF members because they were "working class men like yourself".[


    This is a great book about the period. Joe McCann features heavily. The Officals/Stickies were certainly more revolutionary and progressive in their outlook. The Provos were seen as conservative, sectarian, and ruled by Holy Joes from Dublin.





    ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.penguin.co.uk%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fprh%2Fbooks%2F559%2F55934%2F9780141028453.jpg.transform%2FPRHDesktopWide_small%2Fimage.jpg&f=1&nofb=1


  • #15
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Abominable Dr. Phibes wrote: »
    The Officials. Not the Provos.
    Ah, the stickies.


  • #16
    Stihl waters
    Registered Users Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Stihl waters


    Aegir wrote: »
    So his killing British soldiers is legitimate, but them killing him is murder.

    Is that what you’re saying?

    No you said he murdered people, and I asked you was he involved in the murder of civilians, genuine question


  • #17
    Normal One
    Registered Users Posts: 357 ✭✭Normal One


    Aegir wrote: »
    So his killing British soldiers is legitimate, but them killing him is murder.

    Well, one is an occupying army and the others were guerilla fighters defending their people. He was executed and it was a war crime.


  • #18
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Normal One wrote: »
    Well, one is an occupying army and the others were guerilla fighters defending their people. He was executed and it was a war crime.

    How does an army occupy its own country.?

    Weird.

    He was a killer, who was happy to kill people in cold blood and he got killed.

    Like I said, live by the sword, die by it.


  • #19
    Marco23d
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭Marco23d


    Abominable Dr. Phibes wrote: »
    This is a great book about the period. Joe McCann features heavily. The Officals/Stickies were certainly more revolutionary and progressive in their outlook. The Provos were seen as conservative, sectarian, and ruled by Holy Joes from Dublin.





    ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.penguin.co.uk%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fprh%2Fbooks%2F559%2F55934%2F9780141028453.jpg.transform%2FPRHDesktopWide_small%2Fimage.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

    The provos weren't sectarian, some of their members were involved in sectarian attacks in retaliation to loyalist attacks.

    During the period of 74 to 76 loyalists killed 280 civilians and the provos killed about 70 civilians and loyalist paramilitaries,during this kind of sectarian onslaught you can see how it could be hard to control everyone in the IRA.


  • #20
    Stihl waters
    Registered Users Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Stihl waters


    Aegir wrote: »
    How does an army occupy its own country.?

    Weird.

    He was a killer, who was happy to kill people in cold blood and he got killed.

    Like I said, live by the sword, die by it.

    Yea you've said that, how can someone kill an armed soldier in a conflict setting in cold blood, an armed soldier on foreign ground should consider themselves fair game at all times, they also play by the sword, tough shìt if it bites them in the arse


  • #21
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Stihl waters wrote: »
    Yea you've said that, how can someone kill an armed soldier in a conflict setting in cold blood, an armed soldier on foreign ground should consider themselves fair game at all times, they also play by the sword, tough shìt if it bites them in the arse

    Do you not for one second consider that to be hypocritical?


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  • #22
    Fuascailteoir
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Fuascailteoir


    Stihl waters wrote: »
    Yea you've said that, how can someone kill an armed soldier in a conflict setting in cold blood, an armed soldier on foreign ground should consider themselves fair game at all times, they also play by the sword, tough shìt if it bites them in the arse

    And also tough luck if it follows them back to their own country


  • #23
    indioblack
    Registered Users Posts: 1,936 ✭✭✭indioblack


    Stihl waters wrote: »
    Was he shot on active duty or apprehended and executed in revenge
    What does "active duty" mean?
    Is it that you get to decide when you are a legitimate combatant ?


  • #24
    Marco23d
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭Marco23d


    Aegir wrote: »
    How does an army occupy its own country.?

    Weird.

    He was a killer, who was happy to kill people in cold blood and he got killed.

    Like I said, live by the sword, die by it.

    State forces are supposed to take prisoners while the people fighting against the state can't take prisoners for obvious reasons.


  • #25
    Stihl waters
    Registered Users Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Stihl waters


    Aegir wrote: »
    Do you not for one second consider that to be hypocritical?

    In what way


  • #26
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,420 ✭✭✭political analyst


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9510477/Troubles-veterans-convicted-crimes-relating-Northern-Ireland-shootings-pardoned.html
    Northern Ireland veterans convicted of crimes relating to Troubles shootings could be pardoned under plans being considered by the Government, sacked former minister Johnny Mercer has revealed.

    In an explosive interview with the Mail, Mr Mercer said a part of him ‘died’ when he discovered two weeks ago that senior figures are looking at powers to ‘reduce sentences or grant mercy’ to convicted veterans.


  • #27
    Stihl waters
    Registered Users Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Stihl waters


    indioblack wrote: »
    What does "active duty" mean?
    Is it that you get to decide when you are a legitimate combatant ?

    As in active duty against foreign armed soldiers who were responsible for the deaths of innocent Catholics and citizens of northern Ireland, I say the same about Afghan "terrorists " in Afghanistan and Iraqi "terrorists " in Iraq attacking British and American soldiers and bases, if you wear a uniform of a foreign soldier in a hostile area you must be prepared to be attacked and killed, it doesn't all go one way where they can just march in and call the shots


  • #28
    Stihl waters
    Registered Users Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Stihl waters


    Fuascailteoir wrote: »
    And also tough luck if it follows them back to their own country

    Absolutely, I see nothing wrong with the targeting of military personnel and bases, politicians and senior members of the royal family should be considered fair game also, I definitely do not support the bombing of pubs, buses or any public area containing innocent civilians, that's something that should have been off limits from day 1


  • #29
    afro man
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭afro man


    Aegir wrote: »
    How does an army occupy its own country.?

    Weird.

    He was a killer, who was happy to kill people in cold blood and he got killed.

    Like I said, live by the sword, die by it.
    Because it was not their own country... but if you take up arms and kill people its a good chance you goin to get killed as well .


  • #30
    Marco23d
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭Marco23d


    Aegir wrote: »
    How does an army occupy its own country.?

    Weird.

    He was a killer, who was happy to kill people in cold blood and he got killed.

    Like I said, live by the sword, die by it.

    If you knew your history you would know that at the time Northern Ireland was disputed territory claimed by both Britain and the republic of Ireland.


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  • #31
    indioblack
    Registered Users Posts: 1,936 ✭✭✭indioblack


    Stihl waters wrote: »
    As in active duty against foreign armed soldiers who were responsible for the deaths of innocent Catholics and citizens of northern Ireland, I say the same about Afghan "terrorists " in Afghanistan and Iraqi "terrorists " in Iraq attacking British and American soldiers and bases, if you wear a uniform of a foreign soldier in a hostile area you must be prepared to be attacked and killed, it doesn't all go one way where they can just march in and call the shots
    As in active duty as a soldier in an army, for that is how these people are often portrayed. Therefore his arrest should have be equivalent to being taken prisoner in a war. Or did he revert to being a civilian?
    Obviously the government cannot see it this way, which is why the prosecution goes ahead.


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