Ex paratroopers deny murder of Joe McCann

Marco23d

McCann was killed by the British army on 15 April 1972 in Joy St in The Markets.

From 3–5 July 1970, McCann was involved in gun battles during the Falls Curfew between the Official IRA and up to 3,000 British soldiers in the Lower Falls area that left four civilians killed by the army and 60 soldiers, civilians and IRA men injured.

His most famous act came on 9 August 1971 when his unit took over the Inglis bakery in the Markets area and fortified it after the introduction of internment without trial by the Northern Ireland authorities (see Operation Demetrius). They defended it throughout the night from an incursion by 600 British soldiers, looking to arrest paramilitary suspects.

The action allowed other IRA members to slip out of the area and avoid arrest. He was photographed during the incident, holding an M1 carbine, against the background of a burning building and the Starry Plough flag, one of the most striking early images of The Troubles.

He was known for his complete opposition to sectarianism knowing that is what MI5/MI6 were trying to achieve.

So he was an active member of the IRA?

Stihl waters

Was he shot on active duty or apprehended and executed in revenge

Aegir

Aegir wrote: »

So he was an active member of the IRA?

The Officials. Not the Provos.

NIMAN

I just read he might have killed up to 15 soldiers, so all's fair in war and war, no?

Timberrrrrrrr

Stihl waters wrote: »

Was he shot on active duty or apprehended and executed in revenge

He killed up to 15 people, he was shot while attempting to escape while being arrested. He was one of the top people on the IRA army Council.

Marco23d

Stihl waters wrote: »

Was he shot on active duty or apprehended and executed in revenge

He was spotted by an army patrol chased and shot while he was running away unarmed he was supposedly Britain's most wanted man at the time.

Hamsterchops

Sounds like he was no Saint.

not that he deserved to be shot.

Stihl waters

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

He killed up to 15 people, he was shot while attempting to escape while being arrested. He was one of the top people on the IRA army Council.

People or soldiers(also people I realise) but a difference imo where shooting soldiers was a legitimate course of action and targeting innocent Protestants/Catholics in random bomb attacks was an act of cowardice

Marco23d

Stihl waters wrote: »

People or soldiers(also people I realise) but a difference imo where shooting soldiers was a legitimate course of action and targeting innocent Protestants/Catholics in random bomb attacks was an act of cowardice

He targeted soldiers and politicians he was completely against even attacking loyalist paramilitaries.

In 1971 McCann led a unit which captured three UVF members in Sandy Row. The UVF had raided an OIRA arms dump earlier that day and the OIRA announced they would execute the three prisoners if the weapons were not returned. McCann eventually released the three UVF members because they were "working class men like yourself".[

Marco23d

Marco23d wrote: »

He targeted soldiers and politicians he was completely against even attacking loyalist paramilitaries.

In 1971 McCann led a unit which captured three UVF members in Sandy Row. The UVF had raided an OIRA arms dump earlier that day and the OIRA announced they would execute the three prisoners if the weapons were not returned. McCann eventually released the three UVF members because they were "working class men like yourself".[

He murdered people and ended up getting targeted himself.

Sorry for his friends and family, but live by the sword......

Stihl waters

Aegir wrote: »

He murdered people and ended up getting targeted himself.

Sorry for his friends and family, but live by the sword......

Theres a difference in killing British soldiers and murdering civilians, was he involved in the murder of civilians

Stihl waters

Stihl waters wrote: »

Theres a difference in killing British soldiers and murdering civilians, was he involved in the murder of civilians

So his killing British soldiers is legitimate, but them killing him is murder.

Is that what you’re saying?

Marco23d

Marco23d wrote: »

He targeted soldiers and politicians he was completely against even attacking loyalist paramilitaries.

In 1971 McCann led a unit which captured three UVF members in Sandy Row. The UVF had raided an OIRA arms dump earlier that day and the OIRA announced they would execute the three prisoners if the weapons were not returned. McCann eventually released the three UVF members because they were "working class men like yourself".[

This is a great book about the period. Joe McCann features heavily. The Officals/Stickies were certainly more revolutionary and progressive in their outlook. The Provos were seen as conservative, sectarian, and ruled by Holy Joes from Dublin.

biko

Deleted User wrote: »

The Officials. Not the Provos.

Ah, the stickies.

Stihl waters

Aegir wrote: »

So his killing British soldiers is legitimate, but them killing him is murder.

Is that what you’re saying?

No you said he murdered people, and I asked you was he involved in the murder of civilians, genuine question

Normal One

Aegir wrote: »

So his killing British soldiers is legitimate, but them killing him is murder.

Well, one is an occupying army and the others were guerilla fighters defending their people. He was executed and it was a war crime.

Normal One

Normal One wrote: »

Well, one is an occupying army and the others were guerilla fighters defending their people. He was executed and it was a war crime.

How does an army occupy its own country.?

Weird.

He was a killer, who was happy to kill people in cold blood and he got killed.

Like I said, live by the sword, die by it.

Marco23d

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is a great book about the period. Joe McCann features heavily. The Officals/Stickies were certainly more revolutionary and progressive in their outlook. The Provos were seen as conservative, sectarian, and ruled by Holy Joes from Dublin.

The provos weren't sectarian, some of their members were involved in sectarian attacks in retaliation to loyalist attacks.

During the period of 74 to 76 loyalists killed 280 civilians and the provos killed about 70 civilians and loyalist paramilitaries,during this kind of sectarian onslaught you can see how it could be hard to control everyone in the IRA.

Stihl waters

Aegir wrote: »

How does an army occupy its own country.?

Weird.

He was a killer, who was happy to kill people in cold blood and he got killed.

Like I said, live by the sword, die by it.

Yea you've said that, how can someone kill an armed soldier in a conflict setting in cold blood, an armed soldier on foreign ground should consider themselves fair game at all times, they also play by the sword, tough shìt if it bites them in the arse

Stihl waters

Stihl waters wrote: »

Yea you've said that, how can someone kill an armed soldier in a conflict setting in cold blood, an armed soldier on foreign ground should consider themselves fair game at all times, they also play by the sword, tough shìt if it bites them in the arse

Do you not for one second consider that to be hypocritical?

Fuascailteoir

Stihl waters wrote: »

Yea you've said that, how can someone kill an armed soldier in a conflict setting in cold blood, an armed soldier on foreign ground should consider themselves fair game at all times, they also play by the sword, tough shìt if it bites them in the arse

And also tough luck if it follows them back to their own country

indioblack

Stihl waters wrote: »

Was he shot on active duty or apprehended and executed in revenge

What does "active duty" mean?
Is it that you get to decide when you are a legitimate combatant ?

Marco23d

Aegir wrote: »

How does an army occupy its own country.?

Weird.

He was a killer, who was happy to kill people in cold blood and he got killed.

Like I said, live by the sword, die by it.

State forces are supposed to take prisoners while the people fighting against the state can't take prisoners for obvious reasons.

Stihl waters

Aegir wrote: »

Do you not for one second consider that to be hypocritical?

In what way

political analyst

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9510477/Troubles-veterans-convicted-crimes-relating-Northern-Ireland-shootings-pardoned.html

Northern Ireland veterans convicted of crimes relating to Troubles shootings could be pardoned under plans being considered by the Government, sacked former minister Johnny Mercer has revealed.

In an explosive interview with the Mail, Mr Mercer said a part of him ‘died’ when he discovered two weeks ago that senior figures are looking at powers to ‘reduce sentences or grant mercy’ to convicted veterans.

Stihl waters

indioblack wrote: »

What does "active duty" mean?
Is it that you get to decide when you are a legitimate combatant ?

As in active duty against foreign armed soldiers who were responsible for the deaths of innocent Catholics and citizens of northern Ireland, I say the same about Afghan "terrorists " in Afghanistan and Iraqi "terrorists " in Iraq attacking British and American soldiers and bases, if you wear a uniform of a foreign soldier in a hostile area you must be prepared to be attacked and killed, it doesn't all go one way where they can just march in and call the shots

Stihl waters

Fuascailteoir wrote: »

And also tough luck if it follows them back to their own country

Absolutely, I see nothing wrong with the targeting of military personnel and bases, politicians and senior members of the royal family should be considered fair game also, I definitely do not support the bombing of pubs, buses or any public area containing innocent civilians, that's something that should have been off limits from day 1

afro man

Aegir wrote: »

How does an army occupy its own country.?

Weird.

He was a killer, who was happy to kill people in cold blood and he got killed.

Like I said, live by the sword, die by it.

Because it was not their own country... but if you take up arms and kill people its a good chance you goin to get killed as well .

Marco23d

Aegir wrote: »

How does an army occupy its own country.?

Weird.

He was a killer, who was happy to kill people in cold blood and he got killed.

Like I said, live by the sword, die by it.

If you knew your history you would know that at the time Northern Ireland was disputed territory claimed by both Britain and the republic of Ireland.

indioblack

Stihl waters wrote: »

As in active duty against foreign armed soldiers who were responsible for the deaths of innocent Catholics and citizens of northern Ireland, I say the same about Afghan "terrorists " in Afghanistan and Iraqi "terrorists " in Iraq attacking British and American soldiers and bases, if you wear a uniform of a foreign soldier in a hostile area you must be prepared to be attacked and killed, it doesn't all go one way where they can just march in and call the shots

As in active duty as a soldier in an army, for that is how these people are often portrayed. Therefore his arrest should have be equivalent to being taken prisoner in a war. Or did he revert to being a civilian?
Obviously the government cannot see it this way, which is why the prosecution goes ahead.

Hamsterchops

Joe McCann
Born: November 2, 1947, Belfast, United Kingdom
Died: April 15, 1972, Belfast, United Kingdom

Ex-paratroopers deny 1972 murder of Official IRA member Joe McCann. Soldiers A and C, who will remain anonymous throughout the case, are accused of shooting 24-year-old in the back in Belfast during The Troubles in Northern Ireland (UK).

The court heard today that according to the prosecution, Mr McCann was suspected of involvement in many murders and could have committed more if he had evaded arrest.

The lawyer said soldiers faced a "binary choice" of either firing to effect the arrest or Mr McCann getting away (to commit more crimes)?

The trial continues.

Could they not have arrested him?

Hamsterchops

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Sounds like he was no Saint.

not that he deserved to be shot.

Killed 15 British soldiers in the UK.

Member of a terrorist paramilitary organisation, waging a war.

Looks to me like he got just what he deserved.

dd973

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Joe McCann
Born: November 2, 1947, Belfast, Ireland. United Kingdom
Died: April 15, 1972, Belfast, Ireland United Kingdom

There, fixed it for you.

Hamsterchops

JayZeus wrote: »

Looks to me like he got just what he deserved.

Not sure about that, nasty character for sure but you don't just shoot him like a dog!

Catch him and put him through the courts and let them decide his fate, killing him solves nothing.

dd973, I got that entry from Wiki.

Normal One

JayZeus wrote: »

Killed 15 British soldiers in the UK.

Member of a terrorist paramilitary organisation, waging a war.

Looks to me like he got just what he deserved.

Whatever you say charlie flanagan

Normal One

Normal One wrote: »

Whatever you say charlie flanagan

Leave the politics to one side and you’ll see he got the same ‘justice’ he was handing down on others.

Guy shoots and kills others. Guy gets shot and killed. Fair enough so.

smurgen

JayZeus wrote: »

Leave the politics to one side and you’ll see he got the same ‘justice’ he was handing down on others.

Guy shoots and kills others. Guy gets shot and killed. Fair enough so.

That's fine so once we agree the British Army are terrorists also.

Hamsterchops

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Not sure about that, nasty character for sure but you don't just shoot him like a dog!

Catch him and put him through the courts and let them decide his fate, killing him solves nothing.

Soldiers shooting terrorists solves lots of problems. Terrorists need to be put in graves, not prisons.

Normal One

JayZeus wrote: »

Soldiers shooting terrorists solves lots of problems. Terrorists need to be put in graves, not prisons.

I agree, no mercy for para terrorist scum in Ireland.

smurgen

smurgen wrote: »

That's fine so once we agree the British Army are terrorists also.

The British Army, under attack by terrorist paramilitaries in the United Kingdom? No. They’re not collectively terrorists. Some were rotten scum but wearing the same uniform doesn’t mean the majority were.

On the other hand, IRA gunmen and bombers were all scumbag terrorists during ‘the troubles’. Every single one of them. Murderous filth.

Trex.

Marco23d wrote: »

His most famous act came on 9 August 1971 when his unit took over the Inglis bakery in the Markets area and fortified it

Supposedly that's where Old Mr. Brennan got his idea to fortify the bread

smurgen

Boards seems to be flooded with loyalist extremist rhetoric nowadays.

smurgen

smurgen wrote: »

Boards seems to be flooded with loyalist extremist rhetoric nowadays.

It's an entirely reasonable perspective to have that every nasty, grotty, and sinister paramilitary organisation in NI brought nothing only misery, murder, and hardship to the place. Every closed coffin, maiming, and kneecapping was avoidable. What a petty and sectarian conflict it was.



I get it's over. It's the eulogising about terrorists that most of us find tiresome.


I very much doubt there are any loyalists posting here. Maybe the odd unionist pops in from time-to-time. The unionist perspective worth listening to tbh, and something everyone needs to embrace and genuinely understand. Celebrating the atrocities of an overtly sectarian mass-murderer is not a way of 'recognising our shared legacy'.



Hume was right. He was always right.

Stihl waters

JayZeus wrote: »

The British Army, under attack by terrorist paramilitaries in the United Kingdom? No. They’re not collectively terrorists. Some were rotten scum but wearing the same uniform doesn’t mean the majority were.

On the other hand, IRA gunmen and bombers were all scumbag terrorists during ‘the troubles’. Every single one of them. Murderous filth.

So putting on a uniform legitimises the murder of Catholic civilians and the terrorising of catholic neighbourhood's, che guevara and Nelson Mandela are terrorists, Micheal collins another Republican scum bag going by your simple logic, you'd lie down and let foreigners rape, pillage and plunder because they've a uniform, the self hatred some Irish people display is something I find truly remarkable at times, no problem with endorsing the queens army and how dare the peasants stand up to the proud British with their nice uniforms

Hamsterchops

dd973 wrote: »

There, fixed it for you.

Thanks, but there's little point in fixing it for me, as it's Wikipedia that thinks Belfast is in the United Kingdom.

Gotta love this stuff.

Shoots at a soldier that's walking down the road and not engaging in any way, he's a hero.

Soldier shoots him as he runs away, it's murder.

Plants bombs on the civilian family cars of police and soldiers, fair game because they are police and soldiers.

Gets killed while not on 'active service' and it's murder because they weren't active at the time.

The ira, killed hundreds of 'civilians', soldiers, police in northern ireland. Sold drugs and robbed banks in the Republic while Killing any Gardai that got in their way. Unarmed Gardai.

So which is it guys?

Marco23d

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Gotta love this stuff.

Shoots at a soldier that's walking down the road and not engaging in any way, he's a hero.

Soldier shoots him as he runs away, it's murder.

Plants bombs on the civilian family cars of police and soldiers, fair game because they are police and soldiers.

Gets killed while not on 'active service' and it's murder because they weren't active at the time.

The ira, killed hundreds of 'civilians', soldiers, police in northern ireland. Sold drugs and robbed banks in the Republic while Killing any Gardai that got in their way. Unarmed Gardai.

So which is it guys?

Sold drugs? First I'm hearing of this, the British or loyalists have never claimed the IRA were involved in drug dealing what evidence do you have to suggest otherwise?

Funny you say about bank robberies in the republic I was only reading about this the other day, In 1973, two self-proclaimed British spies, Keith and Kenneth Littlejohn, were convicted and jailed for a £67,000 armed robbery at a Dublin bank - it was at that time the biggest robbery to date in Irish history.

During their trial the brothers said they were working for the British Government against the IRA. They said they had been told to stage the robbery to discredit the republican organisation and force the Irish Government to introduce tougher measures against its members.

Marco23d

Marco23d wrote: »

Sold drugs? First I'm hearing of this, the British or loyalists have never claimed the IRA were involved in drug dealing what evidence do you have to suggest otherwise?

Funny you say about bank robberies in the republic I was only reading about this the other day, In 1973, two self-proclaimed British spies, Keith and Kenneth Littlejohn, were convicted and jailed for a £67,000 armed robbery at a Dublin bank - it was at that time the biggest robbery to date in Irish history.

During their trial the brothers said they were working for the British Government against the IRA. They said they had been told to stage the robbery to discredit the republican organisation and force the Irish Government to introduce tougher measures against its members.

Not my fault you bury your head if this is the first you are hearing about the ira and drugs. Perhaps educate yourself more before defending them?

From 2001: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/dec/09/northernireland.colombia

Working directly with the narcos. Look forward to your wriggling on this.

Here's a list of Gardai killed by your patriots.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/a-dozen-other-gardai-killed-in-last-26-years-1.56529

bobbysands81

Loads of posters saying he deserved it, he was part of conflict etc...

So when a Brit Army person was killed they would also shrug shoulders and say “ah well, he’s fair game”?

Marco23d

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Not my fault you bury your head if this is the first you are hearing about the ira and drugs. Perhaps educate yourself more before defending them?

From 2001: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/dec/09/northernireland.colombia

Working directly with the narcos. Look forward to your wriggling on this.

Here's a list of Gardai killed by your patriots.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/a-dozen-other-gardai-killed-in-last-26-years-1.56529

Funny you post an article from 2001 where all the information had not been released or discovered yet.

The Colombia Three are three individuals – Niall Connolly, James Monaghan and Martin McCauley – who are currently living in the Republic of Ireland, having fled from Colombia, where they were sentenced to prison terms of seventeen years for training FARC rebels.

They were training left wing FARC rebels it was nothing to do with drugs at all.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/colombia-grants-amnesty-to-alleged-ira-bomb-making-trio