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Cyclists, insurance and road tax

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    #992
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    No. The key point is that a lapse of concentration by anyone can have consequences. They do happen. Try to minimize them as much as you can.
    And when cycling i am only too aware that any lapse by anyone, including me, will hurt me a lot more than a car. So i try my best to stay out of the way of cars who may or may not be concentrating themselves.

    Cars running red lights but yeah cyclist who will only kill himself is worse. I know which I’d rather meet.


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    #993
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,555 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    I was behind a line of cars this morning dropping my kids to school. Took ages.

    I think numbers should be capped so I can get where I am going quicker.


    See how dumb that argument is?
    Commuter busses, school busses, refuse collection trucks, tractors...they all gotta go.


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    #994
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    maestroamado wrote: »
    This is more or less what i am talking about, 12 bikes will take as much road space as an Artic truck, they are travelling slower than motor traffic so people stuck behind, for this reason i think numbers should be capped.
    I was behind a string of bikes one Sunday in a line of traffic, this was before Covid as things seem to pretty ok at the moment...

    Don't know where you live, but how often do you find yourself sitting for long behind a large group? Probably as often as a lorry? i.e. not that much.

    Most people I know if 12-14 people turn up then it's two groups. That means a line of 6/7 (back to lorry length) or 3 pairs (van length). The paired configuration has the advantage of being able to go faster.

    Contrary to popular belief, most cyclists (or club runs especially) do as much as they can to inconvenience others as little as possible (It's not comfortable sitting with some impatient arsehole behind you).
    This is done via group size, route choice etc but sometimes you can't help a little inconvenience but when you look at it, how often do you really get held up by anything more than a few minutes?


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    #995
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    osarusan wrote: »
    Commuter busses, school busses, refuse collection trucks, tractors...they all gotta go.

    Some arsehole pulled out on me on a country road. Was tipping along 40/45. Car proceeded to drive along at 30 after. Had to pull over and let them get away, I suppose I should have came here and cried about it first (ah crap, I just have).


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    #996
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,073 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Some very angry motorists in this thread. Maybe take a break from driving as it seems to make you very angry indeed.


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    #997
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    Always learning things on boards. I didn't realise that filtering or weaving in & out of traffic was recommended, I thought when cycling we had to keep left or stay in cycle lanes.

    Some countries make filtering illegal, but UK and Ireland are good to go.

    Keeping left isn't advised in all circumstances, it's far safer to take the lane in many scenarios. Mainly due to the crap state some of our roads are in.

    I think we need a new thread to discuss giving more tax breaks for cyclists. I.e. for those that choose to do less damage to our infrastructure by completing more journeys by bike. The request to pay more tax in the op is crazy.

    Maybe just tie that to motor tax? If you pay motortax and also cycle you get a 50% rebate on the motortax?


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    #998
    Kander
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭Kander


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Some very angry motorists in this thread. Maybe take a break from driving as it seems to make you very angry indeed.

    Lets all go for a socially distanced cycle together :)


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    #999
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 4,922 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    I give up then.
    You are correct. He was right to be cycling on the wrong side of the white line approaching a red light to him where there was oncoming traffic turning right into the lane he was crossed into. There you go, you win.

    It's perfectly legal.

    Here's what the RSA says (regarding filtering on a motorbike, but it's actually easier on a bicycle)
    Filtering can be defined as overtaking slow moving or stationary traffic and more than any other activity illustrates both the versatility and vulnerability of motorcycle usage.
    The golden rule of filtering is that it should be safe, legal and should be performed at a speed that the rider can stop the machine within the distance he/she can trust to remain clear.

    So long as you're safe, it's fine. Being on the other side of the white line is fine. You have to be in slow-moving traffic, so a red light ahead is fine.
    So long you have space to pull in for oncoming traffic, it's fine.


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    #1000
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 4,922 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    Always learning things on boards. I didn't realise that filtering or weaving in & out of traffic was recommended, I thought when cycling we had to keep left or stay in cycle lanes.

    Nope, the Rules of the Road say that you can use the whole road if you want:
    “Correct road positioning will allow a cyclist to move safely and competently on the road network. Drivers should be aware that cyclists may need to change direction from the normal secondary position on the road (left side of the road) to a more primary riding position (centre of the road).

    It said people cycling can take this position “in order to”, for example: “get the best view of the road and junctions ahead; increase visibility for approaching traffic, especially where a driver’s view may be blocked; and turn left or right, enter a roundabout, change lanes or approach a bend.”

    It adds: “Before changing position on the road, cyclists should ‘look, signal in good time and look again’ to ensure that it is safe to proceed. Where a cyclist is not confident in taking up the ‘primary’ position, it may be safer to get off the bike and cross the roadway on foot where it is safer. Drivers, always check and give extra space to cyclists, as they may need to change position to safely avoid uneven road surfaces and obstacles.”


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    #1001
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    km991148 wrote: »
    Some arsehole pulled out on me on a country road. Was tipping along 40/45. Car proceeded to drive along at 30 after. Had to pull over and let them get away, I suppose I should have came here and cried about it first (ah crap, I just have).

    Why did you not overtake them in a safe and legal manner?


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    #1002
    Paddigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Why did you not overtake them in a safe and legal manner?

    Going by most posts on here, that's not the point of these kind of threads - the point is to have a whinge and complain about anyone who slightly inconveniences us while thinking up ways they should be punished and how we could make their lives more difficult. You know that.


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    #1003
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,449 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    But motor tax already contributes over €1.2 Billion annually through motor tax alone and the exchequer gets additional income from other things directly related to motoring such as VRT, licencing costs, taxes on fuel, NCT & driver testing for example yet you think motor vehicle users should pay more?

    And I agree that some of the services you mentioned are directly linked to motorists but they in turn create employment & generate employment taxes for the exchequer. as I posted earlier, if revenues from motor taxes reduce because of fewer people driving then new taxes could well be introduced to pay for facilities & services for other road users.

    We also cycle and would have no problem paying something to make a contribution, I think another poster suggested €50 as a yearly charge. A nominal amount seems fair to me if we are all using the roads.

    Almost all Government spending creates employment and revenue, including cycle lanes and other facilities, so you don't get any brownie points for that.


    Motor tax doesn't contribute - motoring is a huge cost drain on society. So it's not unreasonable to say that those who get the 'pleasure' and usage out of it should be the ones who pay that cost, instead of expecting society as a whole to subsidise their transport choices. You indicated that cyclists need to pay for cycle lanes, so why don't we expect motorists to pay for motoring?

    As regards your proposed tax, do you reckon it would; a) encourage more cycling and cyclists, resulting in less traffic congestion, less pollution, improved public health, or b) discourage more cycling and cyclists, resulting in more traffic congestion, more pollution and worsening public health?

    But tell you what - would you be agreeable with a road user tax proportional to the wear and tear resulting from the vehicle?


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    #1004
    BanditLuke
    Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Are you new to this topic? Would you like to read up on the 98% of registered drivers who break speed limits daily with no flips given? Or the 88% of red light jumping in Dublin done by registered drivers with no flips given?

    Drivers are killing 2 or 3 people each week on the road, mostly other car occupants, and you want new regulations for cyclists? Explain that logic please?

    We really need a sticky to deal with these seagull posters who fly in, drop their crap on the thread and fly off without any engagement with the facts.

    Are you new to discussion? The thread isn't about motorists.


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    #1005
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,449 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    jaffusmax wrote: »
    I totally agree with you on how terrible motorists are!

    Yet I do not hear many cyclists hauled up in court for dangerous cycling on the roads when I see many going through red lights, cycling in pairs and more down busy roads, going onto pavements and nearly mowing people down. I’ve seen this with Garda nearby but seem to get carte blanche

    With 98% of drivers breaking urban speed limits, we have a bigger carte Blanche problem than you think.

    Cyclists are fined all the time, though Gardai devote most resources to dealing with drivers, the ones who kill people on the road.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/almost-5-000-on-the-spot-fines-issued-to-cyclists-1.3977141?mode=amp

    How much Garda resources do you to divert away from dealing with motorists?


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    #1006
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,449 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    jaffusmax wrote: »
    Running a red light in a bike and getting themselves killed?

    Has that ever happened in Ireland?


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    #1007
    Paddigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    BanditLuke wrote: »
    Are you new to discussion? The thread isn't about motorists.

    Are you the arbiter of what is relevant to a debate on road use? Or just another bitter motorist?


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    #1008
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,301 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    osarusan wrote: »
    Commuter busses, school busses, refuse collection trucks, tractors...they all gotta go.

    And the bloody gates that block the road to let trains go by. Trains should be capped at 1 per hour


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    #1009
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,449 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    jaffusmax wrote: »
    Totally agree but does this give cyclists carte blanche, door swings both ways in this in my view.

    Both as bad as each other only difference is motorist pay more and cyclists have the privilege of using roads that most motorists have significantly contributed to financially
    "Both as bad as each other"? Would you spend five minutes looking at the relevant data before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.

    Drivers kill 2 or 3 people each week in Ireland. Cyclists kill 1 person each decade.

    How exactly is that "as bad as each other"?


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    #1010
    Paddigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    jaffusmax wrote: »
    Both as bad as each other only difference is motorist pay more and cyclists have the privilege of using roads that most motorists have significantly contributed to financially

    Have they? Has it not been pointed out that Motor Tax is not a tax intended to cover the cost of maintaining and repairing roads? That roads are financed through general (rather than just motor) taxation? That if roads were to be purely financed by taxing motorists the Motor Tax would be much much higher?

    And even if you accept that they 'contribute' significantly, that would only be because they destroy them significantly too. And we're not even talking about the cost to the taxpayer of offsetting the carbon emissions and general pollution caused by motor vehicles.

    Is there a reason this argument keeps being brought up despite constant rebuttal? Maybe I'm missing something?


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    #1011
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,449 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    jaffusmax wrote: »
    Many motorists contribute to exchequer through general taxation and motor tax.

    Cyclists only through general taxation.

    I don’t think cyclists should pay additional but should be held to account like every other road user.

    Wrong. Cyclists contribute VAT on bike sales, servicing, accessories.

    Though motorists pay nothing near the true cost of motoring.


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    #1012
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Why did you not overtake them in a safe and legal manner?

    Country lane, safe to go a bit faster, but not wide enough for a safe overtake. Plus I did't see much evidence of them looking behind me, so I don't know if they would have seen an overtake about to start.


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    #1013
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,449 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    I just dont get the objection to cyclists wearing hi-vis jackets.
    Surely anything you can do to get yourself seen is worth it.


    As both a cyclist and a driver, I can see from both sides.
    Sometimes its very, very hard to see cyclists, especially if its getting dark or raining. Mirrors have rain hitting them, wipers going, headlights all over the place and next thing a cyclists comes zipping by that you never even saw.
    Much, much easier to see a hi-vis jacket coming up behind you or out of the corner of your eye.


    When riding the bike i sometimes wonder why i assume that all drivers are looking at me and are doing best job to not kill me. But the truth is that nobody is 100% looking in every direction all the time when driving. There are so many distractions on the road it is impossible. Anything i can do to help them see me, i will do.
    Also, I will never ever pass anything on the inside that isnt already stopped and there is a chance of it moving again, before i am passed it.
    When you drive and cycle you get a much better appreciation for how easy it is for a driver to not see you, make a mistake and roll a wheel over your head. Sometimes you have to remind yourself that your safety is primarily up to yourself. Too late telling a driver he shouldnt have been picking his nose as you passed him when your head is squashed on the tarmac.

    What colour is your car Jimmy?


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    #1014
    Sono Topolino
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    Always learning things on boards. I didn't realise that filtering or weaving in & out of traffic was recommended, I thought when cycling we had to keep left or stay in cycle lanes.

    "Filtering" is not recommended by anyone except cyclist advocacy groups. Cyclist advocacy groups are the only ones who call it "filtering" btw.

    The Road Safety Authority has specifically recommended against "weaving in and out of traffic" (filtering). https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Campaigns/Wrecked/Downloads/Cycle%20safety%20booklet.pdf

    Cycling advocates in Ireland are a bunch of anti-car extremists and morons who are fine advocating practices that lead cyclists to die horrible deaths because they get a martyrs for their dumb cause. Hence, their supporting of weaving in and out of traffic, overtaking from the left, not wearing high visibiity vests and helmets.


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    #1015
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Paddigol wrote: »
    Going by most posts on here, that's not the point of these kind of threads - the point is to have a whinge and complain about anyone who slightly inconveniences us while thinking up ways they should be punished and how we could make their lives more difficult. You know that.

    yeah and that was my point.. my default was just to say feck it and wait it out.. I am saying what i should have done is come here and have a thread about it.. except I didn't (but now I have after being reminded of it lol)


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    #1016
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 4,922 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Sono Topolino wrote: »
    "Filtering" is not recommended by anyone except cyclist advocacy groups. Cyclist advocacy groups are the only ones who call it "filtering" btw.

    The Road Safety Authority has specifically recommended against "weaving in and out of traffic" (filtering). https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Campaigns/Wrecked/Downloads/Cycle%20safety%20booklet.pdf

    Cycling advocates in Ireland are a bunch of anti-car extremists and morons who are fine advocating practices that lead cyclists to die horrible deaths because they get a martyrs for their dumb cause. Hence, their supporting of weaving in and out of traffic, overtaking from the left, not wearing high visibiity vests and helmets.

    "weaving in and out of traffic" is not filtering. Filtering is only done when traffic is slow or stopped.
    Definition of filtering from the RSA:
    Filtering can be defined as overtaking slow moving or stationary traffic

    "weaving in and out of traffic" is done when traffic is at speed and a road user constantly changes lanes, which is not recommended.
    The sentence in the doc you linked says "Never weave in and out of traffic. Stay in your lane and signal your turns."
    Completely different.

    Also, love the rhetoric. Martyrs, horrible deaths. Yeah, from motorists not looking where they're going.
    Again, how often are cyclists killed by other cyclists, pedestrians, or in single person crashes. Almost never.


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    #1017
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Sono Topolino wrote: »
    "Filtering" is not recommended by anyone except cyclist advocacy groups. Cyclist advocacy groups are the only ones who call it "filtering" btw.

    The Road Safety Authority has specifically recommended against "weaving in and out of traffic" (filtering). https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Campaigns/Wrecked/Downloads/Cycle%20safety%20booklet.pdf

    Cycling advocates in Ireland are a bunch of anti-car extremists and morons who are fine advocating practices that lead cyclists to die horrible deaths because they get a martyrs for their dumb cause. Hence, their supporting of weaving in and out of traffic, overtaking from the left, not wearing high visibiity vests and helmets.

    Full wind up mode in play! Well done! I guess we had to kick it up a gear, since you are getting no traction and just spinning your wheels in frustration.
    Thankfully most people don't buy into this and aren't taken as easily for a ride. Most road users have no truck to bear. Time to take the high road and look on the bright side as this is verging on nonsense :pac:

    I'm going to ditch this now as I am running out of road with this.


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    #1018
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,449 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    jaffusmax wrote: »
    Brought to court more often when breaking the rules of the road.

    And before motorists are mentioned I agree more reckless driving should too.

    We have limited Garda resources. Are you proposing diverting Garda resources away from dealing with motorists?


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    #1019
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    These threads do worry me tho - I mean in terms of the intelligence levels on display.. and we let these people drive.. fuk me.. no wonder the roads are such a mess.


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    #1020
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,449 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    See I think the problem here is that nobody, cyclists or motorists want to admit they ever did anything wrong.
    Hence always at each others throats.
    This is just a consequence of using the roads. Noone sees what they did was the wrong thing to do, ever.
    How many times have you been in a car with someone and someone else beeps and the driver beside you says "What the **** were they beeping at?". And then you tell them what they did to deserve to be beeped at and you get daggers and a denial.
    Same talking when cycling with mates on the bike.
    Transport blindness is real.

    I'm happy to confirm I make mistakes as a driver and a cyclist. I see cyclists breaking the law every day. I see drivers breaking the law every day.

    The source of danger on the roads is absolutely clear. It is drivers that kill people on the roads each week.


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    #1021
    Sono Topolino
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    "weaving in and out of traffic" is not filtering. Filtering is only done when traffic is slow or stopped.
    Definition of filtering from the RSA:


    "weaving in and out of traffic" is done when traffic is at speed and a road user constantly changes lanes, which is not recommended.
    The sentence in the doc you linked says "Never weave in and out of traffic. Stay in your lane and signal your turns."
    Completely different.

    Also, love the rhetoric. Martyrs, horrible deaths. Yeah, from motorists not looking where they're going.
    Again, how often are cyclists killed by other cyclists, pedestrians, or in single person crashes. Almost never.


    You took that definition of filtering from the RSA manual for motorcyclists.

    The RSA does not recommend filtering for cyclists. In fact, they specifically recommend AGAINST it.


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