Cyclists, insurance and road tax

km991148 · 21-04-2021 7:27am

mrslancaster wrote: »

We also cycle and would have no problem paying something to make a contribution, I think another poster suggested €50 as a yearly charge. A nominal amount seems fair to me if we are all using the roads.

Sounds a bit mad to pay more to use less tho?

Every journey I complete by bicycle, on a road, is using fewer resources than driving.

Tbh, if the whole system was fair, I'd be up for it. But means low polluting, high millage vehicles don't get such luxurious tax breaks. I'd happily have a big engined car for when I need one but pay fairly for the couple thousand Kms is drive it. If that means paying the same basis for cycling as well, the sure, why not.

Doesn't really matter anyway. Roads need to be paid for. If half our annual car journeys suddenly were completed by bicycle (and a similar proportion of vehicles were declared off road) then the existing infra would still need to be paid. As taxpayers we'd all just pay more somehow.

Regardless tho, there is a complete logic fail asking cyclists who own a car to pay more to use their cars less. Nonsense.

jaffusmax · 21-04-2021 7:31am

I don’t think they should pay taxes but strongly believe that they MUST obey the rules of the road like every motorist and some must lose the attitude as the roads where never built with cyclists in mind in the first place!

km991148 · 21-04-2021 7:33am

StemCell wrote: »

High vis jackets and reg number sound like a minimum requirement. Insurance.... harder to sell unless it's cheap which it should be.

Yes. High viz jackets do *sound* like a minimum requirement.

But a little bit of research would show that actually it wouldn't solve much, and probably make safety worse. It's an interesting subject tho and touches on psychology and other areas.

It's also a good example of why policy isn't decided by people like us on forums!

AndrewJRenko · 21-04-2021 7:35am

jaffusmax wrote: »

I don’t think they should pay taxes but strongly believe that they MUST obey the rules of the road like every motorist and some must lose the attitude as the roads where never built with cyclists in mind in the first place!

If cyclists obey the rules "like motorists" there won't be much obeying.

98% of motorists break urban speed limits. Most motorists use their phones while driving.

So, do you want to rethink the "obey the rules like every motorist" bit?

km991148 · 21-04-2021 7:40am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If cyclists obey the rules "like motorists" there won't be much obeying.

98% of motorists break urban speed limits. Most motorists use their phones while driving.

So, do you want to rethink the "obey the rules like every motorist" bit?

Yeah in fairness I think they meant 'like every motorist should'.

No one using the roads (ped, driver, cyclist, horse, whatever) would assume motorists are all law abiding citizens. Speeding and red light jumping, try and drive in Dublin at the speed limit and stop at amber for more than a few minutes and you will soon have people letting you know that you are too slow etc..

jaffusmax · 21-04-2021 7:43am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If cyclists obey the rules "like motorists" there won't be much obeying.

98% of motorists break urban speed limits. Most motorists use their phones while driving.

So, do you want to rethink the "obey the rules like every motorist" bit?

I totally agree with you on how terrible motorists are!

Yet I do not hear many cyclists hauled up in court for dangerous cycling on the roads when I see many going through red lights, cycling in pairs and more down busy roads, going onto pavements and nearly mowing people down. I’ve seen this with Garda nearby but seem to get carte blanche

Fighting Tao · 21-04-2021 7:47am

jaffusmax wrote: »

I totally agree with you on how terrible motorists are!

Yet I do not hear many cyclists hauled up in court for dangerous cycling on the roads when I see many going through red lights, cycling in pairs and more down busy roads, going onto pavements and nearly mowing people down. I’ve seen this with Garda nearby but seem to get carte blanche

“Nearly never did” is what my grandmother used to say. Gardaí have the use of discretion. They obviously know that some people’s perception of danger involving people on bikes is not really dangerous, especially compared to someone driving a car.

jaffusmax · 21-04-2021 7:49am

Fighting Tao wrote: »

“Nearly never did” is what my grandmother used to say. Gardaí have the use of discretion. They obviously know that some people’s perception of danger involving people on bikes is not really dangerous, especially compared to someone driving a car.

Running a red light in a bike and getting themselves killed?

Fighting Tao · 21-04-2021 7:50am

jaffusmax wrote: »

Running a red light in a bike and getting themselves killed?

Since we are going with anecdotal evidence, I see cars that have been driven onto and abandoned on footpaths, and motorists speeding and breaking red lights daily without penalty.

jaffusmax · 21-04-2021 7:57am

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Since we are going with anecdotal evidence, I see cars that have been driven onto and abandoned on footpaths, and motorists speeding and breaking red lights daily without penalty.

Totally agree but does this give cyclists carte blanche, door swings both ways in this in my view.

Both as bad as each other only difference is motorist pay more and cyclists have the privilege of using roads that most motorists have significantly contributed to financially

5uspect · 21-04-2021 8:14am

Here is a time lapse of my 25km commute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQZIxPbBNRA

As you can see the vast majority of cyclists stop at red lights. You can also see a lot of illegal parking in cycle lanes, the clearway in Ranelagh in particular and along the canal.

You also get a sense of just how many cyclists are squashed into tiny crappy cycle lanes while large single occupant cars take up so much space.

We should be paying people to cycle.

JimmyVik · 21-04-2021 8:20am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So hi-vis jackets and registration numbers for all pedestrians, every time they cross the road then? Why not? What's the difference?

I just dont get the objection to cyclists wearing hi-vis jackets.
Surely anything you can do to get yourself seen is worth it.

As both a cyclist and a driver, I can see from both sides.
Sometimes its very, very hard to see cyclists, especially if its getting dark or raining. Mirrors have rain hitting them, wipers going, headlights all over the place and next thing a cyclists comes zipping by that you never even saw.
Much, much easier to see a hi-vis jacket coming up behind you or out of the corner of your eye.

When riding the bike i sometimes wonder why i assume that all drivers are looking at me and are doing best job to not kill me. But the truth is that nobody is 100% looking in every direction all the time when driving. There are so many distractions on the road it is impossible. Anything i can do to help them see me, i will do.
Also, I will never ever pass anything on the inside that isnt already stopped and there is a chance of it moving again, before i am passed it.
When you drive and cycle you get a much better appreciation for how easy it is for a driver to not see you, make a mistake and roll a wheel over your head. Sometimes you have to remind yourself that your safety is primarily up to yourself. Too late telling a driver he shouldnt have been picking his nose as you passed him when your head is squashed on the tarmac.

JimmyVik · 21-04-2021 8:26am

5uspect wrote: »

Here is a time lapse of my 25km commute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQZIxPbBNRA

As you can see the vast majority of cyclists stop at red lights. You can also see a lot of illegal parking in cycle lanes, the clearway in Ranelagh in particular and along the canal.

You also get a sense of just how many cyclists are squashed into tiny crappy cycle lanes while large single occupant cars take up so much space.

We should be paying people to cycle.

At 17/18 seconds why are you on the wrong side of the white line with cars coming past you with obstructed views of you as they turn right?

km991148 · 21-04-2021 8:28am

jaffusmax wrote: »

. motorist pay more and cyclists have the privilege of using roads that most motorists have significantly contributed to financially

This tho.. if the entire argument is predicated on this, then it's all wrong. Motorists don't significantly contribute financially, it's general taxation that pays for infrastructure. Most cyclists are also motorists so they are paying anyway and in actual fact if you look at it from a usage/wear & tear point of view then cyclists who can also drive are in effect subsidising those who only drive as they pay the same amount of taxes for far less damage caused.

'Motorists only' should be far more appreciative of those who complete more journeys by bicycle. Less space taken by traffic, less wear on the infrastructure and that's before you get into the overall impact on health systems and environmental impact.

And people want them to pay more? I think it makes the crappy 450quid tax break on bike sales a bit of a joke.

km991148 · 21-04-2021 8:32am

JimmyVik wrote: »

I just dont get the objection to cyclists wearing hi-vis jackets.
Surely anything you can do to get yourself seen is worth it.
.

You can be seen without covering yourself head to toe in dayglow.

If everyone did this it would actually have a negative effect as people would stop seeing the high Viz (because it would become commonplace).

This doesn't mean I promote those idiots who go out on a bike dressed like ninjas, all in black at night time etc.

This tho:

JimmyVik wrote: »

Also, I will never ever pass anything on the inside that isnt already stopped and there is a chance of it moving again, before i am passed it.
When you drive and cycle you get a much better appreciation for how easy it is for a driver to not see you, make a mistake and roll a wheel over your head. Sometimes you have to remind yourself that your safety is primarily up to yourself. Too late telling a driver he shouldnt have been picking his nose as you passed him when your head is squashed on the tarmac.

I'd much rather promote safer cycling. Reading the road ahead, proactively defensive cycling, good negotiation skills and how to avoid trouble in the first place etc etc

jaffusmax · 21-04-2021 8:33am

km991148 wrote: »

This tho.. if the entire argument is predicated on this, then it's all wrong. Motorists don't significantly contribute financially, it's general taxation that pays for infrastructure. Most cyclists are also motorists so they are paying anyway and in actual fact if you look at it from a usage/wear & tear point of view then cyclists who can also drive are in effect subsidising those who only drive as they pay the same amount of taxes for far less damage caused.

'Motorists only' should be far more appreciative of those who complete more journeys by bicycle. Less space taken by traffic, less wear on the infrastructure and that's before you get into the overall impact on health systems and environmental impact.

And people want them to pay more? I think it makes the crappy 450quid tax break on bike sales a bit of a joke.

Many motorists contribute to exchequer through general taxation and motor tax.

Cyclists only through general taxation.

I don’t think cyclists should pay additional but should be held to account like every other road user.

marvin80 · 21-04-2021 8:37am

jaffusmax wrote: »

I don’t think cyclists should pay additional but should be held to account like every other road user.

Held to account in what way?

Padre_Pio · 21-04-2021 8:38am

JimmyVik wrote: »

At 17/18 seconds why are you on the wrong side of the white line with cars coming past you with obstructed views of you as they turn right?

Overtaking

km991148 · 21-04-2021 8:38am

jaffusmax wrote: »

Many motorists contribute to exchequer through general taxation and motor tax.

Cyclists only through general taxation.

I don’t think cyclists should pay additional but should be held to account like every other road user.

Yes they do, but most cyclists are motorists as well. That's my point. They are already paying 'more' if you calculate amount paid per damages incurred (to the infrastructure).
I pay enough tax in this country you can fuk right off if I'm now going to pay a bicycle tax, to effectively subsidise car only motorists.

jaffusmax · 21-04-2021 8:40am

marvin80 wrote: »

Held to account in what way?

Brought to court more often when breaking the rules of the road.

And before motorists are mentioned I agree more reckless driving should too.

Fighting Tao · 21-04-2021 8:42am

jaffusmax wrote: »

Totally agree but does this give cyclists carte blanche, door swings both ways in this in my view.

Both as bad as each other only difference is motorist pay more and cyclists have the privilege of using roads that most motorists have significantly contributed to financially

But they are nowhere as bad as each other when you look at the stats.

Also most cyclists are motorists too, and many motorists don’t pay motor tax, so your second point is incorrect too.

harmless · 21-04-2021 8:43am

Traffic density from Tomtoms statistics.
https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/ranking/?country=AT,BE,BG,CZ,DK,EE,FI,FR,DE,GR,HU,IS,IE,IT,LV,LT,LU,NL,NO,PL,PT,RO,RU,SK,SI,ES,SE,CH,TR,UA,UK

Dublin: 11th worst in the world
Amsterdam: 151st place

In Amsterdam, no tax on cycalist using public infrastructure. Generous amounts of tax payers money spent encouraging cycling. Very low helmet or hi vis use. Low cyclist injury rate.

Out of the two which kind of city would you rather live in when it comes to transport?

5uspect · 21-04-2021 8:43am

JimmyVik wrote: »

At 17/18 seconds why are you on the wrong side of the white line with cars coming past you with obstructed views of you as they turn right?

I’m filtering, as is recommended for cyclists and motorcycles. Are you looking for a gotcha or are you that offended by cyclists overtaking you while you sit immobile in traffic?

Is that why this thread exists? Cyclists should pay road tax because they overtake me because I’m stuck in traffic? Where are their manners? They should have to wait too!

Seth Brundle · 21-04-2021 8:43am

jaffusmax wrote: »

Many motorists contribute to exchequer through general taxation and motor tax.

Cyclists only through general taxation.

I pay motor tax yet I cycle more than I drive.
I also pay a number if other forms of tax towards the exchequer so looks like you're talking crap!

jaffusmax wrote: »

I don’t think cyclists should pay additional but should be held to account like every other road user.

Most drivers are not punished when they break the road traffic laws - do you disagree?
All road users should be treated equally under the eyes of the law. However, when enforcing the law, the gardai do tend to look towards the law breakers that can do more damage.

Fighting Tao · 21-04-2021 8:44am

jaffusmax wrote: »

Running a red light in a bike and getting themselves killed?

How often does it happen? Cyclists are generally more aware that they could die if they run a red light and aware of their surroundings. What about the 88% of motorists they run red lights? They are more likely to kill someone else but themselves.

Btw, I don’t agree that anyone should break red lights.

marvin80 · 21-04-2021 8:50am

jaffusmax wrote: »

Brought to court more often when breaking the rules of the road.

And before motorists are mentioned I agree more reckless driving should too.

There's fines for breaking red lights. I've heard of a small few people getting fines but it's upto the guards to enforce this rigorously.

What other incidents should cyclists be brought to court for?

Fighting Tao · 21-04-2021 8:57am

marvin80 wrote: »

There's fines for breaking red lights. I've heard of a small few people getting fines but it's upto the guards to enforce this rigorously.

What other incidents should cyclists be brought to court for?

Going by some of the posters here, I’d guess people should be brought to court for owning a bike regardless if it is used or not.

harmless · 21-04-2021 9:00am

When it comes to law breaking on the road there is an issue with both cyclists and also motor propelled vehicles.

Perhaps more enforcement is needed but it won't come cheap. Fines don't cover the cost of enforcement.

VonLuck · 21-04-2021 9:01am

I think there are a select few instances where I can understand people breaking red lights on a bike. Say at a pedestrian crossing light where you're at a standstill, I'd have no issue with someone cycling through at a snails pace. There's practically zero chance of them causing any harm. Also there are some lights that don't activate unless there's a car waiting at the light. It can be frustrating to be waiting 5+ minutes for a light that will never turn green!

The only truly punishable ones I see are when the cyclist puts themselves or someone else at risk. Breaking red lights at junctions, speeding through pedestrian crossings etc. It's very frustrating to see. If you're that much in a rush, at least hop off the bike for that moment and walk across.

JimmyVik · 21-04-2021 9:06am

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Overtaking

At a red light at a junction into oncoming traffic turning right?
Wouldnt get me doing it.

Cyclists, insurance and road tax

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