Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

The Davestator · 16-04-2021 12:39PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

MHQ won’t work.

The majority of people live within a ~2 hour drive of two unrestricted airports which have better choice than ever.

The four freedoms of the EU are insoluble, you can’t single out countries and arbitrarily restrict movement of their people and assume they’ll be no consequences. While the commission will be slow to do anything, twice in the last 12 months France has turned the screw at Calais, first time to force the brits into a lockdown.

Ireland is overly dependent on FDI, American executives will not travel to Ireland to be jailed. I’d be surprised if the dfa isn’t already coming under huge pressure to exempt US nationals.

MHQ is repugnant to the constitution, it is likely to be struck down if it gets in-front of a judge, hence the government caving in on every challenge to it thus far.

I think everyone agrees we need to stop variants coming in and reseeding COVID. But MHQ is a bad approach. A grown up thoughtful approach which deals with all the facts needs to be had. At the moment we have that gormless Donnelly acting the hard man to the EU all to appease some anonymous Twitter trolls.

And hold on to his seat as SF are breathing down his neck if and when an election is called.

Corholio · 16-04-2021 12:42PM

OwenM wrote: »

Not this auld ****e again, one small study and nobody admitted to hospital. It's not a real issue, nobody in this context is going into hospital or dying, they are catching a mild illness.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/03/astrazeneca-vaccine-doesnt-prevent-b1351-covid-early-trial
"Of the 750 participants vaccine recipients, 19 (2.5%) developed mild to moderate COVID-19 more than 14 days after the second dose, compared with 23 of 717 placebo recipients (3.2%). The incidence of COVID-19 among the vaccine group was 73.1 per 1,000 person-years, compared with 93.6 per 1,000 person-years among the placebo group, for an efficacy of 21.9% (95% confidence interval [CI], -49.9 to 59.8).

Of the 42 total cases of COVID-19, 39 (92.9%) were caused by B1351, for a vaccine effectiveness against this variant of 10.4% (95% CI, -76.8 to 54.8). All 42 cases were mild to moderate, and no patients were hospitalized."

And even for those reinfected it's mild to moderate.

https://www.businesslive.co.za/bd/opinion/2021-03-04-shabir-a-madhi-decision-not-to-use-astrazeneca-vaccine-goes-against-the-spirit-of-what-the-health-department-espoused/

"This provided the first conclusive evidence that the mutations included in the B. 1.351 were clinically significant, and that despite 35-45% of South Africans (especially in densely populated urban areas) likely to have been infected during the course of the first wave by the prototype virus, such infection did not confer any protection against developing mild to moderate Covid-19 due to the B. 1351 variant."

Someone was brought up by mods in last few days for parroting the false info about the vaccine on the SA variant based on that study. This finalisation of wording is a serious **** stirrer imo and very reckless, for one aim too.

Valhallapt · 16-04-2021 12:48PM

The Davestator wrote: »

And hold on to his seat as SF are breathing down his neck if and when an election is called.

Yes, happens all too often. Politician puts self interest above the country.

NSAman · 16-04-2021 01:01PM

Tit for tat? Spain and Italy are talking about bringing in MHQ for Irish citizens?

Can imagine the whine line then..;)

joseywhales · 16-04-2021 01:15PM

crossman47 wrote: »

This is a mess and the media have played a big part. They gave a platform to all those looking for MHQ but, as soon as it came in, publicised every sob story they could find. Wait for July and a headline about some 90 year old who didn't get vaccinated. Shock, horror.

While I agree with everything you have said, I do not blame the media for the mess. It's not really the medias job to lead us through this, if we haven't got politicians that can cut through the noise, then we need new ones. The media is such a large collections of opinions that you will never satisfy most of them.

Blut2 · 16-04-2021 01:35PM

joseywhales wrote: »

While I agree with everything you have said, I do not blame the media for the mess. It's not really the medias job to lead us through this, if we haven't got politicians that can cut through the noise, then we need new ones. The media is such a large collections of opinions that you will never satisfy most of them.

The media is partially to blame, for their repeatedly demanding MHQ be brought in. But the buck stops with our politicians. Instead of spending months "investigating" and "implementing" MHQ, all it would have taken was some of them to stand up and say "MHQ would be nice, but its not possible to bring in given our constitutional obligations to our citizens, our commitments to EU law, our economic reliance on FDI, and the practicalities of our open border with Northern Ireland".

If our Tanaiste/Taoiseach/Minister of Health had came out forcefully saying that then the matter would have been dropped from public debate within a week. It wouldn't have been popular initially, but it would have been honest. And in time that would have been seen as entirely reasonable, and their honesty would have gotten them praise.

Instead, they privately admitted they didn't want to bring in MHQ, drew the matter out for as long as possible, and eventually hesitantly implemented a system thats a complete farce. Vast sums of money are being wasted, the public image of Ireland with our trading partners is being tarnished, and individual Irish citizens who can't visit dying relatives are suffering life changing emotional damage. All because our leaders were afraid to stand up admit the unpopular truth to the public.

FileNotFound · 16-04-2021 01:42PM

In fairness to the media comments above, while it may not be the media who should guide us they have worked extremely hard on all sides to sow chaos and confusion. There has been a lot of very poor quality reporting, jumping on any soundbite from anyone, and throwing up very 1 sided articles dependent on the outlets point of view.

The Gov have been very poor at clear communication over the past few months, limping from one issue to the next, no proper goals, just repetitive one liners saying "following scientific advice", "taking a cautious approach" or "constrained by XXX, not our fault".

Even if the line is true, just offering the same one again and again does not better inform of appease the public.

I'm not even too critical of the job they have done (I do agree lots of errors and really don't like donnelly) but the messaging at least has been poor.

Golfman64 · 16-04-2021 01:44PM

Sharpyshoot wrote: »

A clown, we are an embarrassment to the eu.

Yeah SD has made a complete fool out of himself with regards to MHQ. Firstly, forcing it in and now the complete shambles it continues to be, sucking up valuable resources in terms of time and money.

The sooner one of the adults in government steps in and sorts out the mess, the better before he brings them all down.

16-04-2021 01:49PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

https://twitter.com/inquirerdotnet/status/1382324107690262529?s=20

I counter sensationalist reporting with up to date facts:
https://diviexchange.blob.core.windows.net/%24web/DIVI_Intensivregister_Report.pdf

That is the situation as of today with regard to intensive care load in Germany.

caveat emptor · 16-04-2021 01:52PM

timmyntc wrote: »

Total misinformation.
B.1.1.7 has been proven to not be any more deadly. More infectious yes, more fatal no. Outcomes are the same as the original strains.

The south African one does not evade vaccines - they are still effective.

Not all vaccines are equal as we are learning. South Africa gave away there AZ.

Why would they do that?

The average age of the trial participant was young so now hospitalisation or death was observed in either arm. Not enough data yet either way.

The S.A variant isn't an issue thus far. UK is throwing the kitchen sink at it to contain. Going door to door in large boroughs of London to contain it. You may not like facts but that's what they are.

If it does spread in U.K there'll be a lot more data to confirm or reject various unknowns. Hopefully it doesn't. I would not be so sure.

Are you saying the Financial Times is lying?

Surge testing has been expanded to four London boroughs as concern grows that the test and trace programme cannot contain a coronavirus variant that has shown increasing signs of vaccine resistance.

A total of 56 cases of the variant first identified in South Africa were found in the week to April 14, according to data released on Thursday, taking the total confirmed cases since it was first detected in December to 600.

The largest “surge testing” operation since the start of the pandemic was launched in the boroughs of Wandsworth and Lambeth on Tuesday, then extended to postcodes in Southwark and Barnet, as public health officials urgently try to halt the spread of the strain, named 501Y.V2.

the new cases have caused concern in the government as several of those infected had received at least one shot of either the AstraZeneca or Pfizer vaccine, suggesting the variant may have been able to resist vaccine protection, according to one test and trace official.

https://twitter.com/FT/status/1382737598762864640?s=20

16-04-2021 01:53PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

Yes, happens all too often. Politician puts self interest above the country.

Sure we had to reshuffle the government last year in the midst of a catastrophe so the boys and girls of Fianna Fail could get their turn...

Just goes to show their priorities

zebastein · 16-04-2021 01:56PM

Golfman64 wrote: »

Yeah SD has made a complete fool out of himself with regards to MHQ. Firstly, forcing it in and now the complete shambles it continues to be, sucking up valuable resources in terms of time and money.

The sooner one of the adults in government steps in and sorts out the mess, the better before he brings them all down.

Note that only the minister of health goes in all sorts of interviews regarding the MHQ.
The MHQ is also highly related to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Transport and Justice, but they don't really stand up to defend the MHQ. It is a one man band at the moment, and he will have to take full responsibility for the fiasco.

16-04-2021 01:59PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Not all vaccines are equal as we are learning. South Africa gave away there AZ.

Why would they do that? [/url]

Because they jumped the gun? They are, at this moment in time also not using J&J so have now made an absolute mess of their system.

Even if it doesnt stop you getting Covid, if the effect is greatly reduced then its still a win.

In regards London, they were warned not too push second does out so far and we all knew from day one that total immunity is not obtained so the fact that some effected people had recieved a first dose doesnt real change anything.

What is the other suggestion? We dont bother until we find a magic bullet? Because they very rarely exist against any disease. You can still get chicken pox, the flu, etc after vaccination

is_that_so · 16-04-2021 02:03PM

mmclo wrote: »

The reality is a Commission action would take years and both sides know it, they were pursuing us on water quality for 20 years!

They've already responded to it and the government now have ten days to reply. It's not as if this reaction couldn't have been predicted if they insisted on tacking on more EU countries to the red list.

The European Commission has said the Government should use "less restrictive" quarantine measures for citizens arriving from five EU member states and that there should be clear exemptions for essential travel to Ireland.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0416/1210274-coronavirus-ireland-quarantine/

saabsaab · 16-04-2021 02:04PM

MHQ quarantine was and is the right policy. What we had before was non observed 'voluntary' quarantine which didn't happen in most cases. On top of that it acts as a deterrent to those coming in.

Widescreen · 16-04-2021 02:09PM

The EU should be impressed that Ireland are now being so careful in trying to stop the virus variants infiltrating here.

Do they think Europeans carry less virulent virus strains- jesus:)

EU Vaccine roll out was laughable initially and still not brilliant now, they are the gift that keeps on giving if you ask me.

16-04-2021 02:09PM

is_that_so wrote: »

They've already responded to it and the government now have ten days to reply. It's not as if this reaction couldn't have been predicted if they insisted on tacking on more EU countries to the red list.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0416/1210274-coronavirus-ireland-quarantine/

or they can completely ignore it as the commission have zero enforcement powers

"We invite the Irish authorities to align more closely their measures taken with the provisions of the council recommendation member states agreed in October and updated earlier this year."

ooooh, hide behind the sofa everybody. They have invited the Irish authorities to stop being bold and play nice

16-04-2021 02:09PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Not all vaccines are equal as we are learning. South Africa gave away there AZ.

Why would they do that?

The average age of the trial participant was young so now hospitalisation or death was observed in either arm. Not enough data yet either way.

The S.A variant isn't an issue thus far. UK is throwing the kitchen sink at it to contain. Going door to door in large boroughs of London to contain it. You may not like facts but that's what they are.

If it does spread in U.K there'll be a lot more data to confirm or reject various unknowns. Hopefully it doesn't. I would not be so sure.

Are you saying the Financial Times is lying?

https://twitter.com/FT/status/1382737598762864640?s=20

This is the third time that there has been surge testing re. SA variant. two of them have been in my old borough of wandsworth. It has been in the UK for months. And nothing has come of it so far, nor has there been anything reportable from the outcomes of the last surge testing exercises.

is_that_so · 16-04-2021 02:12PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

or they can completely ignore it as the commission have zero enforcement powers

Oh, they can embarrass us, fine us or even take us to court. We tend not to ignore the EU for too long no matter what "The Bull" Donnelly thinks.

caveat emptor · 16-04-2021 02:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the third time that there has been surge testing re. SA variant. two of them have been in my old borough of wandsworth. It has been in the UK for months. And nothing has come of it so far, nor has there been anything reportable from the outcomes of the last surge testing exercises.

I think the difference this time is that they have opened up a lot in the past couple of weeks so not exactly the same situation at all.

“Surge testing works until the day that it doesn’t,” said Danny Altmann, professor of immunology at Imperial College London, adding that the variant could “completely devastate us” if health officials were unable to prevent it from spreading nationwide — like B.1.1.7 did at the end of last year.

“I am extremely concerned that . . . the horse may have already bolted,” said Dr Zubaida Haque, a member of Independent Sage, convened as an alternative to the government’s top scientific advisory group.

The relaxation of lockdown rules in England this week and children’s return to school after the Easter break were “the perfect storm” for variants to spread, Haque added.

Scientists also fear that the 501Y.V2 variant may have a competitive advantage over the B.1.1.7 variant, first identified in Kent, as it appears it may be able to infect some vaccinated people due to mutations around its spike protein, which it uses to enter human cells.

fly_agaric · 16-04-2021 02:15PM

My reading was core of the EU criticism was fairness + the logic behind chosing some countries and not others. It's not clear to me either really.

If it is an emergency measure why does it appear selections being made relate to how much back and forward travel there is between Ireland and a given place + how big of a hassle it is rather than public health?

Should have waited until they were fairly sure of capcacity & systems (would need a wait list of some sort?) to manage it and put the large ones (rest of the EU/the UK/US) on the MHQ list at the same date as a big bang.

As far as I always understood it the public health advice/suggestion provided to govt. by NPHET and always rejected until recently was to test + quarantine incoming travellers in so far as we can (no exceptions for particular countries or particular nationalities e.g. returning Irish).

16-04-2021 02:18PM

is_that_so wrote: »

Oh, they can embarrass us, fine us or even take us to court. We tend not to ignore the EU for too long no matter what "The Bull" Donnelly thinks.

Did you completely ignore the part where I pointed out they have no enforcement powers?

Or earlier in the thread where multiple people have pointed out earlier submissions by the cimmission?

Or the parts of your own link which clearly uses words that are tame and far from even suggesting anything like enforcement?

zebastein · 16-04-2021 02:18PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

or they can completely ignore it as the commission have zero enforcement powers

"We invite the Irish authorities to align more closely their measures taken with the provisions of the council recommendation member states agreed in October and updated earlier this year."

ooooh, hide behind the sofa everybody. They have invited the Irish authorities to stop being bold and play nice

What happened last year when UK wanted to put a quarantine on travel from France is that France said "ok then we'll put a ban on travel from UK", tit for tat.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/05/france-germany-greece-spain-threaten-uk-travellers-quarantine-sanctions-12809568/

A few days later, the UK lifted all the quarantines, because they did not want that to happen:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53177282

The same will happen in this case, the EU commission is just giving its recommendation, and then EU countries will individually take actions.

Valhallapt · 16-04-2021 02:18PM

saabsaab wrote: »

MHQ quarantine was and is the right policy. What we had before was non observed 'voluntary' quarantine which didn't happen in most cases. On top of that it acts as a deterrent to those coming in.

MHQ quarantine was and is the wrong policy.

Jailing children because they had been in a foreign country is never right.

caveat emptor · 16-04-2021 02:22PM

We should just do what Germany does and not allow people in.

Airlines are legally not allowed to transport Irish people there.

Nobody saying anything about that. Easy to pick on little old eire.

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/einreiseundaufenthalt/coronavirus#content_1

Entry restrictions

Restrictions on travel from countries with coronavirus variants

A travel ban has been imposed on countries with widespread occurrence of SARS-CoV-2 virus variants of concern (referred to as “areas of variant of concern”). Transport companies, e.g. air carriers and railway companies, may not transport any persons from these countries to Germany. There are only a few, strictly defined exceptions to this travel ban, namely for:

Persons who are resident in Germany with a current right to reside in the country
Persons on connecting flights, who do not leave the transit zone of an international airport
Few other special cases

is_that_so · 16-04-2021 02:24PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Did you completely ignore the part where I pointed out they have no enforcement powers?

Or earlier in the thread where multiple people have pointed out earlier submissions by the cimmission?

Or the parts of your own link which clearly uses words that are tame and far from even suggesting anything like enforcement?

I probably did just as I'm ignoring your flaccid attempts to slap me with a wet haddock here!

16-04-2021 02:24PM

zebastein wrote: »

What happened last year when UK wanted to put a quarantine on travel from France is that France said "ok then we'll put a ban on travel from UK", tit for tat.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/05/france-germany-greece-spain-threaten-uk-travellers-quarantine-sanctions-12809568/

A few days later, the UK lifted all the quarantines, because they did not want that to happen:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53177282

The same will happen in this case, the EU commission is just giving its recommendation, and then EU countries will individually take actions.

Yep, thats the exact same as what you have claimed.

The UK being allowed to continue to ban the French and the French being allowed ban the UK in return is absolutely what you are claming and not one iota, proving my claim that countries can ban others if they want without the EU taking them to court.

You cannot be serious with this can you? Your post literally proves my point

16-04-2021 02:25PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

We should just do what Germany does and not allow people in.

Airlines are legally not allowed to transport Irish people there.

Nobody saying anything about that. Easy to pick on little old eire.

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/einreiseundaufenthalt/coronavirus#content_1

Massive difference between what you are suggesting and what they allow.
They allow people in if they are meant to be in Germany. Ireland makes it difficult for people to enter Ireland even if they are meant to be in Ireland.
People meant to be in Germany are just expected to quarantine at home.

Valhallapt · 16-04-2021 02:27PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

We should just do what Germany does and not allow people in.

Airlines are legally not allowed to transport Irish people there.

Nobody saying anything about that. Easy to pick on little old eire.

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/einreiseundaufenthalt/coronavirus#content_1

You are gas lighting, that article says

In principle, entry is possible from:

EU member states
states associated with Schengen: Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein
Other countries, from which entry is possible due to the epidemiological situation assessment by the EU.

OwenM · 16-04-2021 02:30PM

saabsaab wrote: »

MHQ quarantine was and is the right policy. What we had before was non observed 'voluntary' quarantine which didn't happen in most cases. On top of that it acts as a deterrent to those coming in.

So when someone in the community catches it, off to a hotel with them? A Spanish trawler ties up in Berehaven, do the crew have to be bussed off to a hotel? The trucks arriving on ferries, keep the drivers on the ferry, sterilise the cab, find 'another' driver and off goes the truck? I haven't started on the NI/IRE border....

Airport quarantine is a delaying tactic and nothing more, promoted by zerocovid nutjobs because they see it as the next step in their plan to save the world. If a new even more infectious variant arises it will likely become the dominant one and the only way to stop it is a true zerocovid approach which is not going to work here and even if it did the likes of Killeen have admitted it would be needed until 2nd gen vaccines which are only in stage 1 trials - possibly for years away.....

Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

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