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Civil service career progression

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24

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    #32
    Forthebuzz
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭Forthebuzz


    u2fanatic wrote: »
    hi folk's. I'm in the CS a few year's. I'm a CO and at the minute I have no interest in applying for a promotion but I'm wondering would it be worth going back to college part time and getting a degree?
    Basically I'm asking would having a degree enchance my chances of getting a HEO or even an AP position down the line.
    EO wouldn't be an option for me. (financially I would lose money due to allowances I get in my current role)

    I'm not saying that a degree won't help but I have done 2 heo interviews in last few years, one without having finished college and one after I finished and they didn't really make a point out of either. They were just concentrating on the competencies. Even for self development competency they were more concerned about what I would do in future not what I had already done


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    #33
    doc22
    Registered Users Posts: 856 ✭✭✭doc22


    I have never been asked about my qualifications at CS interview and any comment was in passing not the focus of a competency


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    #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I think youd want the background level of a qualification of a level 6 or 7 anyways to be competitive

    Firstly, for yourself, to experience it and to give yourself that platform and tbh so as not to have it a "thing" in your own head.

    Secondly if relevant it can help directly in answers. And it should certainly help you in your work so as to open up the type of opportunities and expertise/self development that can indirectly give a basis for good answers

    And even if it doesnt necessarily feed into a competency directly, the lack of it can be a gap too- the interviewers are only human and in analysing the cv/form in advance and during the 40 minutes they can form a general impression that feeds into their discussion and marking


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    #35
    redmgar
    Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭redmgar


    The CS is not a place for quick progression in the vast majority of cases.

    You have to wait for a campaign to appear every year or two, and they are very slow moving from start to finish.
    And if you miss qualification from one stage, you are back waiting for another campaign in one or two years.

    Obviously there are exceptions, but the vast majority stay at each level for at least 2-3 years.


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    #36
    Awkwardstroke
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Awkwardstroke


    2-3 years at each level, would mean someone could go from CO to HEO in 6-9 years (which is not bad). Of course it could take longer, yet the problem today is that everyone thinks they should be promoted yet the pyramid style staffing structure means that these processes are competitive (and rightly so).


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    #37
    doc22
    Registered Users Posts: 856 ✭✭✭doc22


    Awkwardstroke wrote: »
    2-3 years at each level, would mean someone could go from CO to HEO in 6-9 years (which is not bad). Of course it could take longer, yet the problem today is that everyone thinks they should be promoted yet the pyramid style staffing structure means that these processes are competitive (and rightly so).

    Depends on the department, in a back-office operational area an HEO could have 20-30 staff reporting to them. While other areas could have more APs than CO's


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    #38
    ThumbTaxed
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭ThumbTaxed


    2-3 years and then promotion. You would run out of grades in 20 years. 2 to 3 years would be the exception, not the norm.


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    #39
    redmgar
    Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭redmgar


    ThumbTaxed wrote: »
    2-3 years and then promotion. You would run out of grades in 20 years. 2 to 3 years would be the exception, not the norm.

    This is for the people that get promoted, obviously more people stay on co or eo. I'd say it's rare for someone who has been a co for 8 years or so to get promoted.


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    #40
    ThumbTaxed
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭ThumbTaxed


    redmgar wrote: »
    This is for the people that get promoted, obviously more people stay on co or eo. I'd say it's rare for someone who has been a co for 8 years or so to get promoted.

    Sorry but it doesn't make sense. The pyramid I'm civil service can be very broad with few at AP or PO grades. People need to be realistic


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    #41
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Promotion every 8 years would see a CO go to PO eight points up the scale after 40 years, unless you jumped to A/Sec for the last year for the craic

    So clearly the steady progression model is a little simplistic

    I know many COs who were at that level 8 years and longer who got that first promotion and followed it quickly on to further advancement.

    You find plenty feel that HEO/AP is a good balance, depending on the role its definitely more career-driven people that move beyond that.

    The wider economic cycle is a massive part of that function.

    The opportunities COs get (and give themselves) to show well in competition is another.

    If a CO is feeling they arent getting enough opportunity, varied work, education in their role to at least advance their competencies every year they should be raising this with their management.

    But in general I would also take issue with any expectations that said "you should move up the ladder every x years" as there's too many variables to make any such statement really


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    #42
    floorpie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭floorpie


    ThumbTaxed wrote: »
    Sorry but it doesn't make sense. The pyramid I'm civil service can be very broad with few at AP or PO grades. People need to be realistic

    What about his post doesn't make sense?

    Separate point, it's not very broad after CO. There are almost as many POs as AOs for example, approx same number of APs and HEOs, and twice as many APs as AOs. Here are the numbers in 2020:

    PO: 1,539
    AP: 4,848
    HEO: 5,212
    AO: 2,555
    EO: 8,987


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    #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AO isnt imo to be used as a comparator on a pyramid like that

    Its a grade not-quite analogous to HEO on a pyramid but with quite different progression and expectations- arises, as i understand it, from a rather historically-grounded notion of what HEO work is and where HEOs should be recruited from and the natural ceilings on their progression

    All quite dated now, but for pyramid counting purposes (limited in itself as it really depends on unit/dept) youd say CO to EO to (HEO+AO) to AP etc

    And the numbers would certainly show a bulge in the middle but also some grades are internally recruited more than externally, some are much more likely to be filled by general panel and others are subject to a lot of specialist roles, theres no one simple way to look at it tbh


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    #44
    ThumbTaxed
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭ThumbTaxed


    floorpie wrote: »
    What about his post doesn't make sense?

    Separate point, it's not very broad after CO. There are almost as many POs as AOs for example, approx same number of APs and HEOs, and twice as many APs as AOs. Here are the numbers in 2020:

    PO: 1,539
    AP: 4,848
    HEO: 5,212
    AO: 2,555
    EO: 8,987

    Fine you are right. Most COs will be POs in year 10 according to your calculations. 🙈


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    #45
    floorpie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭floorpie


    ThumbTaxed wrote: »
    Fine you are right. Most COs will be POs in year 10 according to your calculations. ��

    I don't know about timelines but at least there should be opportunities for progression at every grade, assuming the structure stays the same.

    New joiners at every grade are way older and more experienced on average too, compared to 10 years ago. I think it's reasonable to expect quick progression for some proportion.


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    #46
    doc22
    Registered Users Posts: 856 ✭✭✭doc22


    2500 AOs, were are they all hiding, revenue makeup 6500 of the 35k in civil service and have only 240 AOs across TAX, Legal,IT and general areas and they tend to be one of the bigger takers of AO's.


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    #47
    ThumbTaxed
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭ThumbTaxed


    doc22 wrote: »
    2500 AOs, were are they all hiding, revenue makeup 6500 of the 35k in civil service and have only 240 AOs across TAX, Legal,IT and general areas and they tend to be one of the bigger takers of AO's.

    Also just 110 POs out of >6,500 staff. The perception of relatively easy promotion is complete nonsense. A lot in the middle fighting for a few positions with each other and the open market.


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    #48
    redmgar
    Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭redmgar


    ThumbTaxed wrote: »
    Fine you are right. Most COs will be POs in year 10 according to your calculations. ��

    I meant for the staff that do get promoted, they would stay on average 2-3 years at co and then eo level. Obviously not everyone gets promoted.I would say that there is a longer average time spent at heo for those who get promoted.


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    #49
    Rikand
    Registered Users Posts: 20,341 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    redmgar wrote: »
    I meant for the staff that do get promoted, they would stay on average 2-3 years at co and then eo level. Obviously not everyone gets promoted.I would say that there is a longer average time spent at heo for those who get promoted.

    A lot would stay at heo too because of the flexi time and overtime advantages over AP


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    #50
    Eevie McGreevy
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭Eevie McGreevy


    Can anyone confirm what grades can apply for worksharing?


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    #51
    prettyboy81
    Registered Users Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭prettyboy81


    DSP circa 6500 staff with 55-60 POs.


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    #52
    doc22
    Registered Users Posts: 856 ✭✭✭doc22


    prettyboy81 wrote: »
    DSP circa 6500 staff with 55-60 POs.

    I think the DSP makeup is around 3000 CO, 1500 HEO and 1600 EOs (a few hundred either way)and the rest AP,PO,SO etc


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    #53
    floorpie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭floorpie


    Here's the rest of DSP:

    Principal Officer: 64
    Assistant Principal: 288
    Higher Executive Officer: 1444
    Administrative Officer: 31

    The numbers cited in the thread shouldn't demotivate anybody who's competent and motivated. No doubt it becomes exponentially more difficult to progress at each grade, and nobody expects progression as a given. But the numbers - at least - are probably more in your favour than in any given private org at senior levels, so I'm not sure what everybody's complaining about with regard to the big figures at CO and little figures at PO....it's normal.

    OP: did your friend accept the role?


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    #54
    Chaos Black
    Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭Chaos Black


    doc22 wrote: »
    2500 AOs, were are they all hiding, revenue makeup 6500 of the 35k in civil service and have only 240 AOs across TAX, Legal,IT and general areas and they tend to be one of the bigger takers of AO's.

    Department of Taoiseach, DPER, Finance and Health I believe all have large contingents of AO’s and very few HEO’s. Foreign Affairs have their own equivalent of the AO grade as well which maybe is included in that total.

    In fact, the makeup of those Departments in comparison to the above discussion of DSP is that they are very top heavy, roughly even numbers of AP’s to AO’s and a significant number of PO’s and Assistent secs I believe. However, not nearly as much staff as DSP or Revenue.


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    #55
    cee_jay
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭cee_jay


    u2fanatic wrote: »
    hi folk's. I'm in the CS a few year's. I'm a CO and at the minute I have no interest in applying for a promotion but I'm wondering would it be worth going back to college part time and getting a degree?
    Basically I'm asking would having a degree enchance my chances of getting a HEO or even an AP position down the line.
    EO wouldn't be an option for me. (financially I would lose money due to allowances I get in my current role)

    Having an honours degree would open up the AO grade for you also.


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    #56
    doc22
    Registered Users Posts: 856 ✭✭✭doc22


    Chaos Black wrote: »
    Department of Taoiseach, DPER, Finance and Health I believe all have large contingents of AO’s and very few HEO’s. Foreign Affairs have their own equivalent of the AO grade as well which maybe is included in that total.

    In fact, the makeup of those Departments in comparison to the above discussion of DSP is that they are very top heavy, roughly even numbers of AP’s to AO’s and a significant number of PO’s and Assistent secs I believe. However, not nearly as much staff as DSP or Revenue.

    I'd say 70 AOs tops(average) in each of them taking them to max 280 plus revenues 240 takes us to 520 AOs.There's another 2000 somewhere and I don't think 3rd secs come anywhere close to that


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    #57
    floorpie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭floorpie


    I'm pretty sure these large numbers above are including staff that you wouldn't see, working in your department. E.g. afaik only half the staff of the Department of Agriculture are administrative, the rest are inspectors and vets and so on. Departments seem to refer to technical grades according to their equivalent administrative payscale (AO equivalent etc), so I suppose the large numbers include technical/professional/non-admin staff. I'd guess Revenue includes customs officers and similar.

    So the pyramid is even more in your favour imo, if this is the case.


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    #58
    doc22
    Registered Users Posts: 856 ✭✭✭doc22


    floorpie wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure these large numbers above are including staff that you wouldn't see, working in your department. E.g. afaik only half the staff of the Department of Agriculture are administrative, the rest are inspectors and vets and so on. Departments seem to refer to technical grades according to their equivalent administrative payscale (AO equivalent etc), so I suppose the large numbers include technical/professional/non-admin staff. I'd guess Revenue includes customs officers and similar.

    So the pyramid is even more in your favour imo, if this is the case.

    Revenue Staff are all aligned to general scale, specialist AP is an AP. Solicitors are the only staff that might not be HEO but on the HEO scale. technical/professional grades are of little benefit if you don't have the qualifications, but they have the benefit of crossing into the generalist stream which is what happens in agriculture at senior levels


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    #59
    The_Captain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭The_Captain


    u2fanatic wrote: »
    hi folk's. I'm in the CS a few year's. I'm a CO and at the minute I have no interest in applying for a promotion but I'm wondering would it be worth going back to college part time and getting a degree?
    Basically I'm asking would having a degree enchance my chances of getting a HEO or even an AP position down the line.
    EO wouldn't be an option for me. (financially I would lose money due to allowances I get in my current role)


    You won't ever lose money from a promotion. Your allowance is taken into account when calculating your starting point on the new scale.


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    #60
    Forthebuzz
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭Forthebuzz


    floorpie wrote: »
    Here's the rest of DSP:

    Principal Officer: 64
    Assistant Principal: 288
    Higher Executive Officer: 1444
    Administrative Officer: 31

    The numbers cited in the thread shouldn't demotivate anybody who's competent and motivated. No doubt it becomes exponentially more difficult to progress at each grade, and nobody expects progression as a given. But the numbers - at least - are probably more in your favour than in any given private org at senior levels, so I'm not sure what everybody's complaining about with regard to the big figures at CO and little figures at PO....it's normal.

    OP: did your friend accept the role?

    My friend did accept the role in the end, she starts next month. I'm hoping that she made the right choice


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    #61
    redmgar
    Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭redmgar


    floorpie wrote: »
    Here's the rest of DSP:

    Principal Officer: 64
    Assistant Principal: 288
    Higher Executive Officer: 1444
    Administrative Officer: 31

    The numbers cited in the thread shouldn't demotivate anybody who's competent and motivated. No doubt it becomes exponentially more difficult to progress at each grade, and nobody expects progression as a given. But the numbers - at least - are probably more in your favour than in any given private org at senior levels, so I'm not sure what everybody's complaining about with regard to the big figures at CO and little figures at PO....it's normal.

    OP: did your friend accept the role?

    Clerical officer is a difficult one to move from as it helps greatly to have management experience to get EO which you obviously don't get with a co role.


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