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Civil service career progression

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13

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    #62
    Addle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,812 ✭✭✭Addle


    redmgar wrote: »
    Clerical officer is a difficult one to move from as it helps greatly to have management experience to get EO which you obviously don't get with a co role.

    In interviews, competencies don’t have to focus solely on current/recent work experience.


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    #63
    redmgar
    Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭redmgar


    Addle wrote: »
    In interviews, competencies don’t have to focus solely on current/recent work experience.

    Yeah, should have added if you haven't got prior private sector experience.


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    #64
    Addle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,812 ✭✭✭Addle


    redmgar wrote: »
    Yeah, should have added if you haven't got prior private sector experience.

    You can make non employment related experience work for you too.


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    #65
    doc22
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭doc22


    Addle wrote: »
    You can make non employment related experience work for you too.

    I'd say it depends how generous the board is, but it's hard to compare real work experience with college/community work. But in saying that at EO a sizable group maybe the majority don't manage any staff.


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    #66
    elliebells
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭elliebells


    As someone who joined as a CO a number of years ago and progressed to EO within a few months and subsequently placed on HEO and AP panels within another year and a half while working as an EO, I would say to anyone thinking of making the move that absolutely it is possible to progress but please do not underestimate that it is difficult to do so and is not a given. As some of the other posters mentioned on here, there is an element of luck and timing in terms of the dept you are assigned to and the work you are exposed to but contrary to the general misconception getting promoted is not a walk in the park and takes a lot hard work once you are there. Good luck to your friend and anyone else thinking of making the move.


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    #67
    Alonzo Mosley
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭Alonzo Mosley


    A lot of people think it's a God given right to progress through the ranks within a short period of time. In theory Clerical grades are there as a grounding, to get to know the structures and workings of the CS. Granted if a CO has managerial experience in the private sector that's well and good and bring their experiences to the table. This notion of a CO going to AP in 8-10 years in ludicrous. I would much prefer to work for a manager that has done their time on the ground and know how to handle staff rather than a twenty something with a degree in botany that has no idea how to handle staff or difficult situations. Don't get me wrong I'm all for staff progression but a balance has to be met.


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    #68
    Awkwardstroke
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Awkwardstroke


    If your good enough, your old enough! The CS has had some exceptional people in the past who reached the top very early (TK Whitaker etc). With some ASGs in their early 40’s.

    You won’t get much managerial experience at CO (or EO level either). Yet I agree that CO to AP in 8-10 years, while possible, is unusual (except if prior private sector experience)
    Alonzo Mosley wrote: »
    A lot of people think it's a God given right to progress through the ranks within a short period of time. In theory Clerical grades are there as a grounding, to get to know the structures and workings of the CS. Granted if a CO has managerial experience in the private sector that's well and good and bring their experiences to the table. This notion of a CO going to AP in 8-10 years in ludicrous. I would much prefer to work for a manager that has done their time on the ground and know how to handle staff rather than a twenty something with a degree in botany that has no idea how to handle staff or difficult situations. Don't get me wrong I'm all for staff progression but a balance has to be met.


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    #69
    doc22
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭doc22


    elliebells wrote: »
    As someone who joined as a CO a number of years ago and progressed to EO within a few months and subsequently placed on HEO and AP panels within another year and a half while working as an EO, I would say to anyone thinking of making the move that absolutely it is possible to progress but please do not underestimate that it is difficult to do so and is not a given. As some of the other posters mentioned on here, there is an element of luck and timing in terms of the dept you are assigned to and the work you are exposed to but contrary to the general misconception getting promoted is not a walk in the park and takes a lot hard work once you are there. Good luck to your friend and anyone else thinking of making the move.

    I'll guess you're in Dublin


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    #70
    floorpie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭floorpie


    doc22 wrote: »
    I'll guess you're in Dublin

    If we're talking about the chances of advancing in CS up through AP then would you need to be in a department at some point?


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    #71
    elliebells
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭elliebells


    doc22 wrote: »
    I'll guess you're in Dublin

    No I am not in Dublin.


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    #72
    ThumbTaxed
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭ThumbTaxed


    I know a CO who got promoted to AP in a relatively short period. She was a waste of space and all ger staff suffered as a result.

    Don't be that person and know your level.


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    #73
    doc22
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭doc22


    ThumbTaxed wrote: »
    I know a CO who got promoted to AP in a relatively short period. She was a waste of space and all ger staff suffered as a result.

    Don't be that person and know your level.

    In some places to a large extent the place runs itself with well experienced staff, a bad AP won't be noticed


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    #74
    Awkwardstroke
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Awkwardstroke


    That’s a subjective statement! She had to have some ability to get through to AP!
    ThumbTaxed wrote: »
    I know a CO who got promoted to AP in a relatively short period. She was a waste of space and all ger staff suffered as a result.

    Don't be that person and know your level.


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    #75
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    ThumbTaxed wrote: »
    I know a CO who got promoted to AP in a relatively short period. She was a waste of space and all ger staff suffered as a result.

    Don't be that person and know your level.


    Everyone rises to their level of incompetence - the Peter Principle


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    #76
    Awkwardstroke
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Awkwardstroke


    Hadn’t heard of that principal before, quite an interesting theory and not without some merit. However the statement is still a subjective one and the lady you mentioned may not have reached her Peter principle level yet :-)
    AngryLips wrote: »
    Everyone rises to their level of incompetence - the Peter Principle


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    #77
    Chaos Black
    Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭Chaos Black


    Like all careers, some deadwood does float to the top. If you can do the tests by hook or crook and then convince a panel(s) who don't often don't know you that you have the competencies..

    In the job, failing probation then comes down to an attentive PO (at AP level example).


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    #78
    coffee table jazz
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭coffee table jazz


    I got promoted via HEO ICT stream from EO and I would honestly go back to my old job now for less money if I could!
    In 3 years I haven't done anything really ICT related, or very much work at all being honest, and I'm becoming more and more unemployable by the day. Currently studying something else at night so at least there's that, I'm just hoping sooner or later I can get a HEO job in a different department, but the 2 I applied for and had interviews for which were pretty technical roles - did great in the interviews but didn't quite have enough technical knowledge, the only competency I didn't get the required marks in for both interviews. So I'm kind of stuck now!


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    #79
    lucat
    Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭lucat


    The problem is, in the CS there are essentially two career 'tracks'. Track 1 is operational: CO-EO-HEO. Track 2 is policy: AO-AP-PO-ASG-SG. It's very hard to cross tracks. Not impossible, but hard and very unusual without re-entering the CS via another open competition. You're asking HR to promote you over people already on a certain track...if there are limited spaces on the panel, it's probably not going to happen.


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    #80
    Awkwardstroke
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Awkwardstroke


    I know of a former Assistant Secretary General (ASG) who came in as a post boy and made it through hard work & ability.

    It’s very competitive at present with CS staff more educated than ever (degrees & masters not unusual in the admin ranks now). However, good people can go far.

    lucat wrote: »
    The problem is, in the CS there are essentially two career 'tracks'. Track 1 is operational: CO-EO-HEO. Track 2 is policy: AO-AP-PO-ASG-SG. It's very hard to cross tracks. Not impossible, but hard and very unusual without re-entering the CS via another open competition. You're asking HR to promote you over people already on a certain track...if there are limited spaces on the panel, it's probably not going to happen.


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    #81
    griffdaddy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭griffdaddy


    lucat wrote: »
    The problem is, in the CS there are essentially two career 'tracks'. Track 1 is operational: CO-EO-HEO. Track 2 is policy: AO-AP-PO-ASG-SG. It's very hard to cross tracks. Not impossible, but hard and very unusual without re-entering the CS via another open competition. You're asking HR to promote you over people already on a certain track...if there are limited spaces on the panel, it's probably not going to happen.

    There's plenty of HEOs who get promoted to AP. In many, if not most departments HEO and AO have become interchangeable grades. You're also not asking HR to do anything. They appoint an interview panel from officials above the prospective grade and they judge the applications on merit against the competencies.


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    #82
    keepkeyyellow
    Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭keepkeyyellow


    lucat wrote: »
    The problem is, in the CS there are essentially two career 'tracks'. Track 1 is operational: CO-EO-HEO. Track 2 is policy: AO-AP-PO-ASG-SG. It's very hard to cross tracks. Not impossible, but hard and very unusual without re-entering the CS via another open competition. You're asking HR to promote you over people already on a certain track...if there are limited spaces on the panel, it's probably not going to happen.

    Kinda disagree with this since there’s no administrative officers in my department whatsoever so it’s automatic that an HEO will eventually get AP.

    I’ve only ever seen people jump from CO to HEO once but they had been in for years and did the part time barrister at law degree. I’ve also seen one person go from HEO to PO in less than 5 years.


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    #83
    Thinkingaboutit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    The thing is how earthly slow it can be. Many months to the starting point with CO, a year to the starting point with EO, etc. Sometimes, when the stars converge or something, it can be quicker.


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    #84
    The_Captain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭The_Captain


    lucat wrote: »
    The problem is, in the CS there are essentially two career 'tracks'. Track 1 is operational: CO-EO-HEO. Track 2 is policy: AO-AP-PO-ASG-SG. It's very hard to cross tracks. Not impossible, but hard and very unusual without re-entering the CS via another open competition. You're asking HR to promote you over people already on a certain track...if there are limited spaces on the panel, it's probably not going to happen.

    I would agree with this. Yes there are HEOs who become APs, but the majority of HEOs don't become APs.


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    #85
    Mervyn Skidmore
    Registered Users Posts: 3,079 ✭✭✭Mervyn Skidmore


    I thought I was doing well, joined as a CO in 2005, went through the grades and have recently been promoted to AP. Ok, there were 6-8 years of a moratorium in the mean time but the idea that promotions just happen is far from the truth. There are a lot of good people fighting for very few jobs.


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    #86
    Awkwardstroke
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Awkwardstroke


    I don’t think that is bad going (especially with a moratorium in between). If you joined as a CO aged 25 then you are a AP at 41, still lots of time to reach PO or higher.

    Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »
    I thought I was doing well, joined as a CO in 2005, went through the grades and have recently been promoted to AP. Ok, there were 6-8 years of a moratorium in the mean time but the idea that promotions just happen is far from the truth. There are a lot of good people fighting for very few jobs.


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    #87
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,236 ✭✭✭Dr. Kenneth Noisewater


    Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »
    I thought I was doing well, joined as a CO in 2005, went through the grades and have recently been promoted to AP. Ok, there were 6-8 years of a moratorium in the mean time but the idea that promotions just happen is far from the truth. There are a lot of good people fighting for very few jobs.

    Make no mistake - you are doing well. Fair play!


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    #88
    Addle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,812 ✭✭✭Addle


    Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »
    I thought I was doing well, joined as a CO in 2005, went through the grades and have recently been promoted to AP. Ok, there were 6-8 years of a moratorium in the mean time but the idea that promotions just happen is far from the truth. There are a lot of good people fighting for very few jobs.

    You’re doing very well! Congratulations.

    Not everyone wants to (or should) be promoted.


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    #89
    lucat
    Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭lucat


    Thinkingaboutit wrote: »
    The thing is how earthly slow it can be. Many months to the starting point with CO, a year to the starting point with EO, etc. Sometimes, when the stars converge or something, it can be quicker.

    Believe it or not, the EO recruitment campaign in 2014 took almost 3 years for me, from start to finish!


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    #90
    Jolene84
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭Jolene84


    Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »
    I thought I was doing well, joined as a CO in 2005, went through the grades and have recently been promoted to AP. Ok, there were 6-8 years of a moratorium in the mean time but the idea that promotions just happen is far from the truth. There are a lot of good people fighting for very few jobs.

    That’s brilliant, well done!


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    #91
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Addle wrote: »
    You’re doing very well! Congratulations.

    Not everyone wants to (or should) be promoted.

    I can definitely understand the desire not to be promoted. Does the civil service look unfavourably on staff if don't want to be promoted out of their level/grade?

    Is there a 'sweet spot' in the civil service where the level of work v's level of compensation is at its optimum level?


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