Civil service career progression

doc22

prettyboy81 wrote: »

DSP circa 6500 staff with 55-60 POs.

I think the DSP makeup is around 3000 CO, 1500 HEO and 1600 EOs (a few hundred either way)and the rest AP,PO,SO etc

floorpie

Here's the rest of DSP:

Principal Officer: 64
Assistant Principal: 288
Higher Executive Officer: 1444
Administrative Officer: 31

The numbers cited in the thread shouldn't demotivate anybody who's competent and motivated. No doubt it becomes exponentially more difficult to progress at each grade, and nobody expects progression as a given. But the numbers - at least - are probably more in your favour than in any given private org at senior levels, so I'm not sure what everybody's complaining about with regard to the big figures at CO and little figures at PO....it's normal.

OP: did your friend accept the role?

Chaos Black

doc22 wrote: »

2500 AOs, were are they all hiding, revenue makeup 6500 of the 35k in civil service and have only 240 AOs across TAX, Legal,IT and general areas and they tend to be one of the bigger takers of AO's.

Department of Taoiseach, DPER, Finance and Health I believe all have large contingents of AO’s and very few HEO’s. Foreign Affairs have their own equivalent of the AO grade as well which maybe is included in that total.

In fact, the makeup of those Departments in comparison to the above discussion of DSP is that they are very top heavy, roughly even numbers of AP’s to AO’s and a significant number of PO’s and Assistent secs I believe. However, not nearly as much staff as DSP or Revenue.

cee_jay

u2fanatic wrote: »

hi folk's. I'm in the CS a few year's. I'm a CO and at the minute I have no interest in applying for a promotion but I'm wondering would it be worth going back to college part time and getting a degree?
Basically I'm asking would having a degree enchance my chances of getting a HEO or even an AP position down the line.
EO wouldn't be an option for me. (financially I would lose money due to allowances I get in my current role)

Having an honours degree would open up the AO grade for you also.

doc22

Chaos Black wrote: »

Department of Taoiseach, DPER, Finance and Health I believe all have large contingents of AO’s and very few HEO’s. Foreign Affairs have their own equivalent of the AO grade as well which maybe is included in that total.

In fact, the makeup of those Departments in comparison to the above discussion of DSP is that they are very top heavy, roughly even numbers of AP’s to AO’s and a significant number of PO’s and Assistent secs I believe. However, not nearly as much staff as DSP or Revenue.

I'd say 70 AOs tops(average) in each of them taking them to max 280 plus revenues 240 takes us to 520 AOs.There's another 2000 somewhere and I don't think 3rd secs come anywhere close to that

floorpie

I'm pretty sure these large numbers above are including staff that you wouldn't see, working in your department. E.g. afaik only half the staff of the Department of Agriculture are administrative, the rest are inspectors and vets and so on. Departments seem to refer to technical grades according to their equivalent administrative payscale (AO equivalent etc), so I suppose the large numbers include technical/professional/non-admin staff. I'd guess Revenue includes customs officers and similar.

So the pyramid is even more in your favour imo, if this is the case.

doc22

floorpie wrote: »

I'm pretty sure these large numbers above are including staff that you wouldn't see, working in your department. E.g. afaik only half the staff of the Department of Agriculture are administrative, the rest are inspectors and vets and so on. Departments seem to refer to technical grades according to their equivalent administrative payscale (AO equivalent etc), so I suppose the large numbers include technical/professional/non-admin staff. I'd guess Revenue includes customs officers and similar.

So the pyramid is even more in your favour imo, if this is the case.

Revenue Staff are all aligned to general scale, specialist AP is an AP. Solicitors are the only staff that might not be HEO but on the HEO scale. technical/professional grades are of little benefit if you don't have the qualifications, but they have the benefit of crossing into the generalist stream which is what happens in agriculture at senior levels

The_Captain

u2fanatic wrote: »

hi folk's. I'm in the CS a few year's. I'm a CO and at the minute I have no interest in applying for a promotion but I'm wondering would it be worth going back to college part time and getting a degree?
Basically I'm asking would having a degree enchance my chances of getting a HEO or even an AP position down the line.
EO wouldn't be an option for me. (financially I would lose money due to allowances I get in my current role)

You won't ever lose money from a promotion. Your allowance is taken into account when calculating your starting point on the new scale.

Forthebuzz

floorpie wrote: »

Here's the rest of DSP:

Principal Officer: 64
Assistant Principal: 288
Higher Executive Officer: 1444
Administrative Officer: 31

The numbers cited in the thread shouldn't demotivate anybody who's competent and motivated. No doubt it becomes exponentially more difficult to progress at each grade, and nobody expects progression as a given. But the numbers - at least - are probably more in your favour than in any given private org at senior levels, so I'm not sure what everybody's complaining about with regard to the big figures at CO and little figures at PO....it's normal.

OP: did your friend accept the role?

My friend did accept the role in the end, she starts next month. I'm hoping that she made the right choice

redmgar

floorpie wrote: »

Here's the rest of DSP:

Principal Officer: 64
Assistant Principal: 288
Higher Executive Officer: 1444
Administrative Officer: 31

The numbers cited in the thread shouldn't demotivate anybody who's competent and motivated. No doubt it becomes exponentially more difficult to progress at each grade, and nobody expects progression as a given. But the numbers - at least - are probably more in your favour than in any given private org at senior levels, so I'm not sure what everybody's complaining about with regard to the big figures at CO and little figures at PO....it's normal.

OP: did your friend accept the role?

Clerical officer is a difficult one to move from as it helps greatly to have management experience to get EO which you obviously don't get with a co role.

Addle

redmgar wrote: »

Clerical officer is a difficult one to move from as it helps greatly to have management experience to get EO which you obviously don't get with a co role.

In interviews, competencies don’t have to focus solely on current/recent work experience.

redmgar

Addle wrote: »

In interviews, competencies don’t have to focus solely on current/recent work experience.

Yeah, should have added if you haven't got prior private sector experience.

Addle

redmgar wrote: »

Yeah, should have added if you haven't got prior private sector experience.

You can make non employment related experience work for you too.

doc22

Addle wrote: »

You can make non employment related experience work for you too.

I'd say it depends how generous the board is, but it's hard to compare real work experience with college/community work. But in saying that at EO a sizable group maybe the majority don't manage any staff.

elliebells

As someone who joined as a CO a number of years ago and progressed to EO within a few months and subsequently placed on HEO and AP panels within another year and a half while working as an EO, I would say to anyone thinking of making the move that absolutely it is possible to progress but please do not underestimate that it is difficult to do so and is not a given. As some of the other posters mentioned on here, there is an element of luck and timing in terms of the dept you are assigned to and the work you are exposed to but contrary to the general misconception getting promoted is not a walk in the park and takes a lot hard work once you are there. Good luck to your friend and anyone else thinking of making the move.

Alonzo Mosley

A lot of people think it's a God given right to progress through the ranks within a short period of time. In theory Clerical grades are there as a grounding, to get to know the structures and workings of the CS. Granted if a CO has managerial experience in the private sector that's well and good and bring their experiences to the table. This notion of a CO going to AP in 8-10 years in ludicrous. I would much prefer to work for a manager that has done their time on the ground and know how to handle staff rather than a twenty something with a degree in botany that has no idea how to handle staff or difficult situations. Don't get me wrong I'm all for staff progression but a balance has to be met.

Awkwardstroke

If your good enough, your old enough! The CS has had some exceptional people in the past who reached the top very early (TK Whitaker etc). With some ASGs in their early 40’s.

You won’t get much managerial experience at CO (or EO level either). Yet I agree that CO to AP in 8-10 years, while possible, is unusual (except if prior private sector experience)

Alonzo Mosley wrote: »

A lot of people think it's a God given right to progress through the ranks within a short period of time. In theory Clerical grades are there as a grounding, to get to know the structures and workings of the CS. Granted if a CO has managerial experience in the private sector that's well and good and bring their experiences to the table. This notion of a CO going to AP in 8-10 years in ludicrous. I would much prefer to work for a manager that has done their time on the ground and know how to handle staff rather than a twenty something with a degree in botany that has no idea how to handle staff or difficult situations. Don't get me wrong I'm all for staff progression but a balance has to be met.

doc22

elliebells wrote: »

As someone who joined as a CO a number of years ago and progressed to EO within a few months and subsequently placed on HEO and AP panels within another year and a half while working as an EO, I would say to anyone thinking of making the move that absolutely it is possible to progress but please do not underestimate that it is difficult to do so and is not a given. As some of the other posters mentioned on here, there is an element of luck and timing in terms of the dept you are assigned to and the work you are exposed to but contrary to the general misconception getting promoted is not a walk in the park and takes a lot hard work once you are there. Good luck to your friend and anyone else thinking of making the move.

I'll guess you're in Dublin

floorpie

doc22 wrote: »

I'll guess you're in Dublin

If we're talking about the chances of advancing in CS up through AP then would you need to be in a department at some point?

elliebells

doc22 wrote: »

I'll guess you're in Dublin

No I am not in Dublin.

ThumbTaxed

I know a CO who got promoted to AP in a relatively short period. She was a waste of space and all ger staff suffered as a result.

Don't be that person and know your level.

doc22

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

I know a CO who got promoted to AP in a relatively short period. She was a waste of space and all ger staff suffered as a result.

Don't be that person and know your level.

In some places to a large extent the place runs itself with well experienced staff, a bad AP won't be noticed

Awkwardstroke

That’s a subjective statement! She had to have some ability to get through to AP!

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

I know a CO who got promoted to AP in a relatively short period. She was a waste of space and all ger staff suffered as a result.

Don't be that person and know your level.

AngryLips

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

I know a CO who got promoted to AP in a relatively short period. She was a waste of space and all ger staff suffered as a result.

Don't be that person and know your level.

Everyone rises to their level of incompetence - the Peter Principle

Awkwardstroke

Hadn’t heard of that principal before, quite an interesting theory and not without some merit. However the statement is still a subjective one and the lady you mentioned may not have reached her Peter principle level yet :-)

AngryLips wrote: »

Everyone rises to their level of incompetence - the Peter Principle

Chaos Black

Like all careers, some deadwood does float to the top. If you can do the tests by hook or crook and then convince a panel(s) who don't often don't know you that you have the competencies..

In the job, failing probation then comes down to an attentive PO (at AP level example).

coffee table jazz

I got promoted via HEO ICT stream from EO and I would honestly go back to my old job now for less money if I could!
In 3 years I haven't done anything really ICT related, or very much work at all being honest, and I'm becoming more and more unemployable by the day. Currently studying something else at night so at least there's that, I'm just hoping sooner or later I can get a HEO job in a different department, but the 2 I applied for and had interviews for which were pretty technical roles - did great in the interviews but didn't quite have enough technical knowledge, the only competency I didn't get the required marks in for both interviews. So I'm kind of stuck now!

lucat

The problem is, in the CS there are essentially two career 'tracks'. Track 1 is operational: CO-EO-HEO. Track 2 is policy: AO-AP-PO-ASG-SG. It's very hard to cross tracks. Not impossible, but hard and very unusual without re-entering the CS via another open competition. You're asking HR to promote you over people already on a certain track...if there are limited spaces on the panel, it's probably not going to happen.

Awkwardstroke

I know of a former Assistant Secretary General (ASG) who came in as a post boy and made it through hard work & ability.

It’s very competitive at present with CS staff more educated than ever (degrees & masters not unusual in the admin ranks now). However, good people can go far.

lucat wrote: »

The problem is, in the CS there are essentially two career 'tracks'. Track 1 is operational: CO-EO-HEO. Track 2 is policy: AO-AP-PO-ASG-SG. It's very hard to cross tracks. Not impossible, but hard and very unusual without re-entering the CS via another open competition. You're asking HR to promote you over people already on a certain track...if there are limited spaces on the panel, it's probably not going to happen.

griffdaddy

lucat wrote: »

The problem is, in the CS there are essentially two career 'tracks'. Track 1 is operational: CO-EO-HEO. Track 2 is policy: AO-AP-PO-ASG-SG. It's very hard to cross tracks. Not impossible, but hard and very unusual without re-entering the CS via another open competition. You're asking HR to promote you over people already on a certain track...if there are limited spaces on the panel, it's probably not going to happen.

There's plenty of HEOs who get promoted to AP. In many, if not most departments HEO and AO have become interchangeable grades. You're also not asking HR to do anything. They appoint an interview panel from officials above the prospective grade and they judge the applications on merit against the competencies.

keepkeyyellow

lucat wrote: »

The problem is, in the CS there are essentially two career 'tracks'. Track 1 is operational: CO-EO-HEO. Track 2 is policy: AO-AP-PO-ASG-SG. It's very hard to cross tracks. Not impossible, but hard and very unusual without re-entering the CS via another open competition. You're asking HR to promote you over people already on a certain track...if there are limited spaces on the panel, it's probably not going to happen.

Kinda disagree with this since there’s no administrative officers in my department whatsoever so it’s automatic that an HEO will eventually get AP.

I’ve only ever seen people jump from CO to HEO once but they had been in for years and did the part time barrister at law degree. I’ve also seen one person go from HEO to PO in less than 5 years.

Thinkingaboutit

The thing is how earthly slow it can be. Many months to the starting point with CO, a year to the starting point with EO, etc. Sometimes, when the stars converge or something, it can be quicker.

The_Captain

lucat wrote: »

The problem is, in the CS there are essentially two career 'tracks'. Track 1 is operational: CO-EO-HEO. Track 2 is policy: AO-AP-PO-ASG-SG. It's very hard to cross tracks. Not impossible, but hard and very unusual without re-entering the CS via another open competition. You're asking HR to promote you over people already on a certain track...if there are limited spaces on the panel, it's probably not going to happen.

I would agree with this. Yes there are HEOs who become APs, but the majority of HEOs don't become APs.

Mervyn Skidmore

I thought I was doing well, joined as a CO in 2005, went through the grades and have recently been promoted to AP. Ok, there were 6-8 years of a moratorium in the mean time but the idea that promotions just happen is far from the truth. There are a lot of good people fighting for very few jobs.

Awkwardstroke

I don’t think that is bad going (especially with a moratorium in between). If you joined as a CO aged 25 then you are a AP at 41, still lots of time to reach PO or higher.

Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »

I thought I was doing well, joined as a CO in 2005, went through the grades and have recently been promoted to AP. Ok, there were 6-8 years of a moratorium in the mean time but the idea that promotions just happen is far from the truth. There are a lot of good people fighting for very few jobs.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »

I thought I was doing well, joined as a CO in 2005, went through the grades and have recently been promoted to AP. Ok, there were 6-8 years of a moratorium in the mean time but the idea that promotions just happen is far from the truth. There are a lot of good people fighting for very few jobs.

Make no mistake - you are doing well. Fair play!

Addle

Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »

I thought I was doing well, joined as a CO in 2005, went through the grades and have recently been promoted to AP. Ok, there were 6-8 years of a moratorium in the mean time but the idea that promotions just happen is far from the truth. There are a lot of good people fighting for very few jobs.

You’re doing very well! Congratulations.

Not everyone wants to (or should) be promoted.

lucat

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

The thing is how earthly slow it can be. Many months to the starting point with CO, a year to the starting point with EO, etc. Sometimes, when the stars converge or something, it can be quicker.

Believe it or not, the EO recruitment campaign in 2014 took almost 3 years for me, from start to finish!

Jolene84

Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »

I thought I was doing well, joined as a CO in 2005, went through the grades and have recently been promoted to AP. Ok, there were 6-8 years of a moratorium in the mean time but the idea that promotions just happen is far from the truth. There are a lot of good people fighting for very few jobs.

That’s brilliant, well done!

KaneToad

Addle wrote: »

You’re doing very well! Congratulations.

Not everyone wants to (or should) be promoted.

I can definitely understand the desire not to be promoted. Does the civil service look unfavourably on staff if don't want to be promoted out of their level/grade?

Is there a 'sweet spot' in the civil service where the level of work v's level of compensation is at its optimum level?

Chaos Black

KaneToad wrote: »

I can definitely understand the desire not to be promoted. Does the civil service look unfavourably on staff if don't want to be promoted out of their level/grade?

Is there a 'sweet spot' in the civil service where the level of work v's level of compensation is at its optimum level?

HEO. Good mix of pay and responsibility. A lot of people I think stop at HEO rather then going for AP as the step up involves losing flexitime and more pressure.

AO whilst equivalent to HEO, the pay scale takes longer to catch up and my experience is that expectation is AO's go for AP.

Awkwardstroke

I think on the "sweetspot" question, its hard to generalize.

If you have a nice work area and good HEO's reporting to you, then I imagine that AP can be fine...with delegation the order of the day

KaneToad

Chaos Black wrote: »

HEO. Good mix of pay and responsibility. A lot of people I think stop at HEO rather then going for AP as the step up involves losing flexitime and more pressure.

AO whilst equivalent to HEO, the pay scale takes longer to catch up and my experience is that expectation is AO's go for AP.

Interesting.

Does the disparity in those levels you mention lead to organisational problems? e.g. the talent may not rise to the top. Those willing to put in the hours will get there but those who need the time flexibility won't?

brownbinman

I'm currently a HEO, was previously an AO. I've found some AOs and HEOs fail upwards, some who you wouldn't trust with a shopping list type.

I've seen HEOs with degrees from MIT and 20 years experience not get through selection stages. All depends on how you sell yourself, doing the tests and interviews

It wouldn't really be putting hours in per se in the job but perhaps in personal development or promotion preparation

Wonderstruck

KaneToad wrote: »

I can definitely understand the desire not to be promoted. Does the civil service look unfavourably on staff if don't want to be promoted out of their level/grade?

Is there a 'sweet spot' in the civil service where the level of work v's level of compensation is at its optimum level?

Definitely not. Honestly the kind of people who don't respect people who are happy at their grade and the kind of people who just are horrible to everybody, regardless of ambition. A long serving CO is the core of most units I find :pac:

Many career changers / older people just want a good CO/EO job with the flexibility, SWY etc. and everywhere I've worked that's been respected.

Yeah I've seen units where CO's are put down and disrespected, but that has nothing to with those CO's ambition or lack thereof, that's just bad managers!

Sweet spot depends on so much - some people might want to move in a technical role (and get fulfillment out of that work but have less staff), others might want to stay a generalist etc. The CS is huge after all!

KaneToad

Wonderstruck wrote: »

Definitely not. Honestly the kind of people who don't respect people who are happy at their grade and the kind of people who just are horrible to everybody, regardless of ambition. A long serving CO is the core of most units I find :pac:

I assume the CO level is the lowest entry level to the civil service?

I definitely agree with you about respecting people in their jobs. I'm embarrassed to say that in the past, when I was younger & ignorant, I would have *silently* sneered at people who were "only" typists or receptionists.

Thankfully it didn't take me too long to cop on and realise how the world really is.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

KaneToad wrote: »

I assume the CO level is the lowest entry level to the civil service?

Correct.

I think it just depends on what Department you work in. As a CO in one of the smaller Departments, I did fairly basic admin and didn't get the chance to have responsibility for much more than sending letters or searching our basement for old files from the 1950s. Then I worked in Social Welfare and the amount of responsibility a CO has there is ten times more. Great if career progression is something you strive for. You're definitely very much valued in that role, a good CO is the lynchpin of the operation there.

mrsgiller

I have a friend who started as a tct back in the mid 1980's and worked their way up to a ap in their 30's. It is possible in the right department with good management. My current department is not known to promote many beyond EO without a law degree.

doc22

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

Correct.

I think it just depends on what Department you work in. As a CO in one of the smaller Departments, I did fairly basic admin and didn't get the chance to have responsibility for much more than sending letters or searching our basement for old files from the 1950s. Then I worked in Social Welfare and the amount of responsibility a CO has there is ten times more. Great if career progression is something you strive for. You're definitely very much valued in that role, a good CO is the lynchpin of the operation there.

Depends like everything on where in Social Welfare, an intreo centre can't compare to some back office roles.The problem with SW is there's lots of COs doing the same thing so It can be hard to set yourself apart. No denying that CO is the lynchpin of the operation.

KaneToad

mrsgiller wrote: »

I have a friend who started as a tct back in the mid 1980's and worked their way up to a ap in their 30's. It is possible in the right department with good management. My current department is not known to promote many beyond EO without a law degree.

Is there any assessment of managers based on their staff satisfaction/progression ? In the private sector, I've come across very few managers who are trying to raise all boats - most are trying to paddle their canoe while feigning otherwise! Does the public sector address this any better?