Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

jellies · 16-04-2021 06:27AM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Your entire argument basically falls within "sure if they are trying to bypass it via the border, give up".

There's nothing stopping the state from setting up checkpoints close to the border ya know

No. It falls in within - if you are in a crisis don't use limited resources on a course of action that won't work. The fact is that we we don't have an all island approach to COVID and people are going to work around it.

Also by taking action that people can clearly see are going to be ineffective it undermines cooperation the reasonable public health measures you are taking. We have been in the longest lockdown in Europe and numbers have come down without draconian MHQ, which is hardly "giving up".

There is no way the state will set up checkpoints on the border. Fantasy land stuff. Have to laugh at Sinn Fein on one hand supporting MHQ and on the other opening up NI - they know it all a charade. But FF and FG have fallen for it.

otnomart · 16-04-2021 06:31AM

Can anyone answer these two questions, please ?
Thanks in advance!

-Is Spain going to be added to the list?
If Yes, when ?
The current EU Map has mainland Spain all red - from A (Asturias) to Z (Zaragoza) - with the few exceptions of Valencia, Extemadura and Galicia

-Does MHQ apply also to essential travel (as in family reunion, meaning: visiting one's children, all still under 18?)

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/situation-updates/weekly-maps-coordinated-restriction-free-movement

GazzaL · 16-04-2021 06:33AM

Del Griffith wrote: »

Ryanair stating what's pretty obvious, Ireland getting left behind for investment in traffic links due to this shambles and lack of any plan.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/ireland-is-last-on-our-list-for-investment-ryanair-ceo-warns-1180488

Not only is Ireland getting left behind for new investment, existing investment is vanishing before our eyes. Routes from Shannon and Cork airports are being transferred to Belfast and beyond. Ryanair have closed their Cork base, subject to review next year. Cork Airport is shutting down for nearly 3 months from September for runway upgrade works, which should have been done in the last 13 months if the DAA had a brain between them. The regression of those airports, particular Cork airport, which were already underutilised is disgraceful.

RedPaddyX · 16-04-2021 06:45AM

Del Griffith wrote: »

Ryanair stating what's pretty obvious, Ireland getting left behind for investment in traffic links due to this shambles and lack of any plan.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/ireland-is-last-on-our-list-for-investment-ryanair-ceo-warns-1180488

I firmly believe Donnelly needs to resign immediately. He has caused untold reputational damage to Ireland and loss of confidence internationally for investment here. Charging ahead blindly announcing a crazy mandatory quarantine when every country in the world is heading the another direction. And then he has arrogance when he is forced to walk it back within days to pretend that it was always part of his plan. Complete gombeen - and such a bluffer.

faceman · 16-04-2021 07:00AM

otnomart wrote: »

Can anyone answer these two questions, please ?
Thanks in advance!

-Is Spain going to be added to the list?
If Yes, when ?
The current EU Map has mainland Spain all red - from A (Asturias) to Z (Zaragoza) - with the few exceptions of Valencia, Extemadura and Galicia

-Does MHQ apply also to essential travel (as in family reunion, meaning: visiting one's children, all still under 18?)

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/situation-updates/weekly-maps-coordinated-restriction-free-movement

The goalposts change regularly but if Donnelly’s latest criteria is to be believed then an EU country will only be added if there is risk from variants of concern. The dominant strain in Spain is the U.K. strain same as Ireland. (Despite the fact Spain’s borders have been closed to the U.K. since December the U.K. strain is still dominant...)

Rates are rising in most of Spain with 3 regions pushing the averages up. Rates in Valencia, Galicia and Murcia region are dropping and all below 100. For contrast my region of Valencia has a 14 day rate of 35 compared with Madrid’s of 347 and Ireland in the 130s. The ECDC separates Spain by region as each is autonomous something most EU countries recognised in the past for travel. However Ireland does not.

Given the lack of transparency from Ireland and MHQ it’s possible Spain could be added to the list when rates exceed 500.

As to your second question, that hasn’t been clarified despite requests from foreign embassies and the EU.

Domestically, custody and access rights was legally permitted unrestrained during level 5 as it should be. Legally any impact to this due to MHQ would be problematic for the government.

Feria40 · 16-04-2021 07:35AM

Why is it only the Irish media that keep using the term Vaccine Cert?

https://english.elpais.com/society/2021-04-16/spain-will-not-require-coronavirus-tests-or-quarantines-for-travelers-arriving-with-vaccination-passports.html?utm_source=Facebook&ssm=FB_CM_EN#Echobox=1618557840

16-04-2021 07:41AM

Feria40 wrote: »

Why is it only the Irish media that keep using the term Vaccine Cert?

https://english.elpais.com/society/2021-04-16/spain-will-not-require-coronavirus-tests-or-quarantines-for-travelers-arriving-with-vaccination-passports.html?utm_source=Facebook&ssm=FB_CM_EN#Echobox=1618557840

Reading about the levels of checks, I anticipate large queues at borders this summer.

Del Griffith · 16-04-2021 07:57AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Reading about the levels of checks, I anticipate large queues at borders this summer.

If its all stored digitally and is just a QR code scan, be grand.

FlubberJones · 16-04-2021 08:09AM

The main thing for me is that we can travel within the EU at some stage before the end of Aug, I could care less what I have to do to enable this, I would do it.

But the thought of spending my hard earned on some over priced hotel / cottage or whatever to walk around fields or parks in the arse end of Cork or Kerry makes me nauseous

otnomart · 16-04-2021 08:18AM

faceman wrote: »

The goalposts change regularly but if Donnelly’s latest criteria is to be believed then an EU country will only be added if there is risk from variants of concern.

faceman wrote: »

Given the lack of transparency from Ireland and MHQ it’s possible Spain could be added to the list when rates exceed 500.

Many thanks for your detailed reply.
Is it known why Ireland chose not to follow the ECDC map and instead to consider the variants criteria?
ECDC does publish data on variants, however their most recent publication is from February 2021.
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/covid-19-risk-assessment-variants-vaccine-fourteenth-update-february-2021

Which source is Ireland using ?

faceman wrote: »

As to your second question, that hasn’t been clarified despite requests from foreign embassies and the EU.

Domestically, custody and access rights was legally permitted unrestrained during level 5 as it should be. Legally any impact to this due to MHQ would be problematic for the government.

Thanks.
Are these access rights, and subsequent MHQ exemption (if confirmed) valid only for Irish/EU parents living in Ireland and visiting their kids living in EU ?

Or also for Irish/EU parents living in the EU and visiting their kids living in Ireland?

Lumen · 16-04-2021 08:19AM

A couple of months ago I took a punt and booked a holiday in France for mid-August.

The interesting thing is that I (and spouse) hope to be vaccinated then (possibly with two doses) but the kids won't be.

It it going to be necessary to hotel-quarantine the kids on their own when we get back?

Please say yes.

Micky 32 · 16-04-2021 08:41AM

otnomart wrote: »

Can anyone answer these two questions, please ?
Thanks in advance!

-Is Spain going to be added to the list?
If Yes, when ?
The current EU Map has mainland Spain all red - from A (Asturias) to Z (Zaragoza) - with the few exceptions of Valencia, Extemadura and Galicia

-Does MHQ apply also to essential travel (as in family reunion, meaning: visiting one's children, all still under 18?)

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/situation-updates/weekly-maps-coordinated-restriction-free-movement

To me it looks like Donnelly is anti travel at the moment. Unless someone stops him i’d say most countries will be on the list( at least the ones most people travel to) and Spain also within the next few months. He’s doing it gradually to avoid all out outrage and making sure he gets as much hotel capacity as possible.

You might think he’s doing you a favour when they are suggesting fully vaccinated allowed quarantine at home but that’s only for hotel capacity issues in the future. You’ll have the pleasure of a gard at your door every 5 mins.

Golfman64 · 16-04-2021 08:47AM

Micky 32 wrote: »

To me it looks like Donnelly is anti travel at the moment. Unless someone stops him i’d say most countries will be on the list( at least the ones most people travel to) and Spain also in the next few months. He’s doing it gradually to avoid all out outrage and making sure he gets as much hotel capacity as possible.
You might think he’s doing you a favour when they are suggesting fully vaccinated allowed quarantine at home but that’s only for hotel capacity issues in the future. You’ll have the pleasure of a gard at your door every 5 mins.

He may well try but once the Green Cert is enacted, its game over for his incompetency, thankfully. Default position will be quarantine and restriction free EU travel and you will require written permission from the EU to do anything different. Unless the situation changes dramatically, I can’t see the EU allowing any exceptions.

zebastein · 16-04-2021 08:50AM

otnomart wrote: »

Can anyone answer these two questions, please ?
Thanks in advance!

-Is Spain going to be added to the list?
If Yes, when ?
The current EU Map has mainland Spain all red - from A (Asturias) to Z (Zaragoza) - with the few exceptions of Valencia, Extemadura and Galicia

-Does MHQ apply also to essential travel (as in family reunion, meaning: visiting one's children, all still under 18?)

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/situation-updates/weekly-maps-coordinated-restriction-free-movement

For your second question, the answer is yes it also applies to essential travel. The only exemptions are if you are a diplomat/policitician, if you are an essential worker (as in medical or truck driver), or doing sport at a professional/elite level.

Micky 32 · 16-04-2021 08:53AM

Golfman64 wrote: »

He may well try but once the Green Cert is enacted, its game over for his incompetency, thankfully. Default position will be quarantine and restriction free EU travel and you will require written permission from the EU to do anything different. Unless the situation changes dramatically, I can’t see the EU allowing any exceptions.

I hope so but he’s already acting the big boy and ignoring the EU’s concerns about MHQ. I get it we should be careful at the moment regarding travel but there doesn’t seem to be a plan or metrics to get out of this for the future only MM talking about more lockdowns for the winter.

SusanC10 · 16-04-2021 08:53AM

Lumen wrote: »

A couple of months ago I took a punt and booked a holiday in France for mid-August.

The interesting thing is that I (and spouse) hope to be vaccinated then (possibly with two doses) but the kids won't be.

It it going to be necessary to hotel-quarantine the kids on their own when we get back?

Please say yes.

That made me laugh!

mmclo · 16-04-2021 08:57AM

dalyboy wrote: »

Do we have Garda manpower to service the 400 roads that access the northern border ?
What would the Gardai say to a driver once the country travel is permitted ?
What about people who work either side of the border ?
What about people who have family in the north ?

Hint . Check points would be a monumental waste of time and easily bypassed.
(Though saying that , with this governments recent history I wouldn’t put it past them to try this)

It would be gas - NPHET to achieve what the British Army and RUC couldn't over 30 years and deliver us up to ridicule after years of insisting during Brexit negotiations in every EU capital that we absolutely had to have no border

a_squirrelman · 16-04-2021 09:07AM

Micky 32 wrote: »

To me it looks like Donnelly is anti travel at the moment. Unless someone stops him i’d say most countries will be on the list( at least the ones most people travel to) and Spain also within the next few months. He’s doing it gradually to avoid all out outrage and making sure he gets as much hotel capacity as possible.

You might think he’s doing you a favour when they are suggesting fully vaccinated allowed quarantine at home but that’s only for hotel capacity issues in the future. You’ll have the pleasure of a gard at your door every 5 mins.

How could they have a gard constantly checking when they aren't even trying to make the gards police the current covid postive people wandering around spreading 400 cases per day.

KanyeSouthEast · 16-04-2021 09:08AM

At the end of another **** show of a week is the feeling that we are in a better or worse place with regards to travelling soon.

otnomart · 16-04-2021 09:11AM

zebastein wrote: »

For your second question, the answer is yes it also applies to essential travel. The only exemptions are if you are a diplomat/policitician, if you are an essential worker (as in medical or truck driver), or doing sport at a professional/elite level.

Really ?
So: Irish/EU parents accessing own kids have different access rights - depending on their job ?
Is there a full list of essential workers ? Is that only medical and hauliers, or also (say) police, train drivers, post office workers ...?

And does that work both ways ?
Say, the essential worker is an Irish nurse living in France, are they subject to MHQ before visiting their kids in Ireland ?

Thanks in advance

Wallander · 16-04-2021 09:31AM

KanyeSouthEast wrote: »

At the end of another **** show of a week is the feeling that we are in a better or worse place with regards to travelling soon.

Better, in my opinion, for the following reasons:

-EU travel pass system came another step closer

-A slew of articles about the negative personal and economic impact of hotel quarantine, which is only going to continue
-Legality of hotel quarantine continually questioned in court
-Diplomatic pressure on Ireland

16-04-2021 09:31AM

dalyboy wrote: »

Do we have Garda manpower to service the 400 roads that access the northern border ?
What would the Gardai say to a driver once the country travel is permitted ?
What about people who work either side of the border ?
What about people who have family in the north ?

Hint . Check points would be a monumental waste of time and easily bypassed.
(Though saying that , with this governments recent history I wouldn’t put it past them to try this)

But national level isn't allowed so I don't see your point.

Essential travel for work and family is already allowed via Dublin airport and outside the new 20km

Rolling checkpoints.

None of your argument made sense

16-04-2021 09:33AM

otnomart wrote: »

Really ?
So: Irish/EU parents accessing own kids have different access rights - depending on their job ?
Is there a full list of essential workers ? Is that only medical and hauliers, or also (say) police, train drivers, post office workers ...?

And does that work both ways ?
Say, the essential worker is an Irish nurse living in France, are they subject to MHQ before visiting their kids in Ireland ?

Thanks in advance

Did you deliberately miss the part where they are only exempt when traveling as part of their work?

Police for example, are not exempt if they travel to see their kids.

otnomart · 16-04-2021 09:46AM

Apologies for any confusion.

zebastein wrote: »

For your second question, the answer is yes it also applies to essential travel. The only exemptions are if you are a diplomat/policitician, if you are an essential worker (as in medical or truck driver), or doing sport at a professional/elite level.

I was replying to the above post - that did not mention travelling as part of their (the essential worker's) job.

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Did you deliberately miss the part where they are only exempt when traveling as part of their work?

Police for example, are not exempt if they travel to see their kids.

So you are claryfing that basically only hauliers and other essential workers who travel as part of their work, can visit their kids without being subject to MHQ upon return (from the Countries in the MHQ list) ?

And everyone else is subject to it?
Thanks in advance

16-04-2021 09:52AM

otnomart wrote: »

Apologies for any confusion.

I was replying to the above post - that did not mention travelling as part of their (the essential worker's) job.

So you are claryfing that basically only hauliers and other essential workers who travel as part of their work, can visit their kids without being subject to MHQ upon return (from the Countries in the MHQ list) ?

And everyone else is subject to it?
Thanks in advance

No, that's not what I'm saying. Seriously mate, relax and take the time to read.

Everyone that travels to see their children is subject to the same rules on return.

The hauliers are exempt when they travel into Ireland while working, as in while delivering essential goods to this country.

They could of course possible see their kids before traveling here working and if so, good for them.

I haven't seen my kids that live abroad since Christmas because the ****ing flights keep getting cancelled, so don't attack me for explaining the rules that will impact me on my return in may (fingers crossed)

zebastein · 16-04-2021 10:00AM

otnomart wrote: »

Really ?
So: Irish/EU parents accessing own kids have different access rights - depending on their job ?
Is there a full list of essential workers ? Is that only medical and hauliers, or also (say) police, train drivers, post office workers ...?

And does that work both ways ?
Say, the essential worker is an Irish nurse living in France, are they subject to MHQ before visiting their kids in Ireland ?

Thanks in advance

We had at least 1 case of an Irish woman who was coming back to Ireland to take a nurse job and she had to go in MHQ. The point that I did not clarify is that you have to be an essential worker in an essential mission, basically you need to cross the borders to do your job, like an airline crew for example. If you are not sent by your work, there is no way to avoid it. The list is on the website of the European commission.

Even if you travel back for important stuff like signing legal documents do not qualify to skip the MHQ, so seeing your kids is really at the bottom of the list in their view

otnomart · 16-04-2021 10:13AM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

No, that's not what I'm saying. Seriously mate, relax and take the time to read.

Everyone that travels to see their children is subject to the same rules on return.

The hauliers are exempt when they travel into Ireland while working, as in while delivering essential goods to this country.

They could of course possible see their kids before traveling here working and if so, good for them.

I haven't seen my kids that live abroad since Christmas because the ****ing flights keep getting cancelled, so don't attack me for explaining the rules that will impact me on my return in may (fingers crossed)

Thanks for replying and clarifying.
And I have not been attacking you, at all.
If these are indeed the rules, the impact on:

- Irish Citizens in Ireland with kids in EU Countries (either currently or soon to be added to the MHQ list - such as: Germany, Spain, Poland)

- EU Citizens abroad with kids in Ireland

- Irish Citizens abroad with kids in Ireland
- EU Citizens living in Ireland with kids in EU

will be devastating.

Wouldn't know the numbers, but they can not be only a few hundred families in this (now unfortunate) situation.

Feria40 · 16-04-2021 10:23AM

otnomart wrote: »

Thanks for replying and clarifying.
And I have not been attacking you, at all.
If these are indeed the rules, the impact on:

- Irish Citizens in Ireland with kids in EU Countries (either currently or soon to be added to the MHQ list - such as: Germany, Spain, Poland)

- EU Citizens abroad with kids in Ireland

- Irish Citizens abroad with kids in Ireland
- EU Citizens living in Ireland with kids in EU

will be devastating.

Wouldn't know the numbers, but they can not be only a few hundred families in this (now unfortunate) situation.

Thousands of families

Klonker · 16-04-2021 10:23AM

I assume the EU vaccination certs would be after you've gotten both doses?

I don't really agree with this. Most here in Ireland will get Pfizer vaccine. Vaccines effectiveness stats can vary but say after first dose 80%+ effective and 90%+ effective after second dose. The first dose does heavy lifting but effectively unvaccinated and one dose person are treated the same even though one dose gives a great level of protection while second dose person are treated differently even though they are marginally better protected than one dose person.

Then if J&J is hopefully unpaused and rolled out, it's one dose vaccine will mean you're fully vaccinated but it's effectiveness is about the same as one dose of Pfizer who won't be fully vaccinated.

I know they want everyome to get both doses and travel certs would be an incentive but its hard to logically justify it in my opinion. What then if we need a third Pfizer shout before end of year as CEO has suggested, are we then not fully vaccinated until we get that shot and can't use the vaccine cert until we get the third dose? And what if we need a yearly dose of the vaccines?

Van.Bosch · 16-04-2021 10:24AM

Golfman64 wrote: »

He may well try but once the Green Cert is enacted, its game over for his incompetency, thankfully. Default position will be quarantine and restriction free EU travel and you will require written permission from the EU to do anything different. Unless the situation changes dramatically, I can’t see the EU allowing any exceptions.

Especially not for some random “abundance of caution” country with a 300 mile open border

Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

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