Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

standardg60 · 15-04-2021 11:11PM

drkpower wrote: »

That’s pretty unlikely on any analysis; and the prosecution agree, not putting an intent verdict to the jury nor arguing for same.

As i've said earlier i think that was a mistake on the prosecutions part (though i imagine they looked into it), but what separates this case from the vast majority of other cases is that there was history between the two

drkpower · 15-04-2021 11:13PM

standardg60 wrote: »

As i've said earlier i think that was a mistake on the prosecutions part (though i imagine they looked into it), but what separates this case from the vast majority of other cases is that there was history between the two

Perhaps, but it would have been next to impossible to prove and any effort to do so would have wasted so much prosecutorial time and effort as to damage the rest of the case; a very good, and to be honest, obvious choice not to pursue it.

drkpower · 15-04-2021 11:15PM

Vestiapx wrote: »

In this type of charge, "you don't intend to cause the death of a particular person," said Washington County Attorney Pete Orput. "But what you're doing is so eminently dangerous to everybody, you'd have to be a goof to do it. You'd have to have a depraved mind to do it."

So the judge ruled that in this case the danger can be to one person from one person acting as you say. As I me tioned earlier I eloeve that Chauvin acted in hatred and to kill someone in front of witnesses and on camera you would as the CA in the above quote said "have to be a good"

Third degree murder seems right to me.

It’s certainly not impossible; the word ‘depraved’ still sits uneasy with me; they could go for it but recklessness is so much easier for a jury of 12 to buy into together.

standardg60 · 15-04-2021 11:20PM

drkpower wrote: »

Perhaps, but it would have been next to impossible to prove and any effort to do so would have wasted so much prosecutorial time and effort as to damage the rest of the case; a very good, and to be honest, obvious choice not to pursue it.

That i agree with

Vestiapx · 15-04-2021 11:20PM

Overheal wrote: »

I don't think that's a real problem. Nor have I ever read anyone here saying he is a role model.

Ok but there is a whole push behind George Floyd being a typical example of police treating people from a certain group in a certain way and you should read up on it.

He also shouldn't be held up for the Nobel Prize or selected as an Astronaut, FWIW.

Which Nobel Prize ? Do you mean a particular one of the five in this nonsensical hypothetical falicy you are proposing or do you believe there is an award given out by a group of distinguished experts which is called "the Nobel Prize" truely I'm intrueged.

Even people who aren't role models deserve due process and have a right to life.

They do and that is much if the reason why the trail is occurring of Mr Chauvin.

Vestiapx · 15-04-2021 11:24PM

Overheal wrote: »

He deliberately inflicted harm rather than appear to agree with bystanders, it would seem. Authority has a hard time drawing down from an aggressive stance if someone else tells them they are in the wrong.

That's a blanket statement, do you have a problem with authority?

Overheal · 15-04-2021 11:25PM

Vestiapx wrote: »

Ok but there is a whole push behind George Floyd being a typical example of police treating people from a certain group in a certain way and you should read up on it.

That part is accurate, though.

Blacks for instance, are more likely to be stopped, more likely to be searched and yet less likely to have drugs on them in traffic stops, for example. I have reams of other studies ranging all areas of policing that reveal similar patterns.

Overheal · 15-04-2021 11:28PM

Vestiapx wrote: »

That's a blanket statement, do you have a problem with authority?

I have lots of problems with authority. Don't confuse that with some sort of agenda against authority, though. Every watcher needs watchers. The sweeping statement, is both a general statement, and true, authorities struggle with admitting fault in tense situations, especially in police activities where admitting fault can be used by a defendant in court.

Vestiapx · 15-04-2021 11:29PM

Overheal wrote: »

Similarly, I've not heard or seen anyone argue that the police are at fault because the arrest was initiated. You're throwing up flak against arguments which are not being made.

Im not here to argue and I don't believe I can change anyone's mind I'm simply interested in what Irish people are getting from all this. There seem to be people interpreting what they want to from each day's proceedings or at least there is a filter that people are seeing what they want to.

Vestiapx · 15-04-2021 11:31PM

Overheal wrote: »

That part is accurate, though.

Blacks for instance, are more likely to be stopped, more likely to be searched and yet less likely to have drugs on them in traffic stops, for example. I have reams of other studies ranging all areas of policing that reveal similar patterns.

In Ireland or in Minneapolis or both ?

Overheal · 15-04-2021 11:34PM

Vestiapx wrote: »

In Ireland or in Minneapolis or both ?

I have US data. Not Ireland, cannot speak to that being the case or not.

Vestiapx · 15-04-2021 11:40PM

Overheal wrote: »

I have US data. Not Ireland, cannot speak to that being the case or not.

You have data that shows that black People are more likely to be pulled over for traffic violations than non black people. Or do the police in America pull people over for no reason. Do they not have to give a reason why they pulled someone over ? The drugs thing is irrelevant to me as outside DUI and being out of it while minding vulnerable people I don't care what a person chooses to injest. Their body their choice .

You can pm me the data if you want probably shodnt clutter the thread, or start a new one .

standardg60 · 15-04-2021 11:44PM

Vestiapx wrote: »

In this type of charge, "you don't intend to cause the death of a particular person," said Washington County Attorney Pete Orput. "But what you're doing is so eminently dangerous to everybody, you'd have to be a goof to do it. You'd have to have a depraved mind to do it."

So the judge ruled that in this case the danger can be to one person from one person acting as you say. As I me tioned earlier I eloeve that Chauvin acted in hatred and to kill someone in front of witnesses and on camera you would as the CA in the above quote said "have to be a good"

Third degree murder seems right to me.

I think you contradicted your previous posts here, do you now believe that Chauvin acted to kill?

Do you think that if any other person was in the same position as Chauvin was at the time we would still be dealing with a death?

Vestiapx · 15-04-2021 11:54PM

standardg60 wrote: »

I think you contradicted your previous posts here, do you now believe that Chauvin acted to kill?

Do you think that if any other person was in the same position as Chauvin was at the time we would still be dealing with a death?

No I don't think he ment to kill he ment to assert his will and dominance but he may have acted in such a way that Floyd died and if so he didn't mean to kill the person but his behaviour was so eminently dangerous that it fits.

Would another police officer have acted the same way ? I don't know I suppose that's what the case really is and not a commentary on racisim or police methods as if any given police officer ends up with a dead Floyd then Chauvin is innocent.

BattleCorp · 16-04-2021 07:12AM

Overheal wrote: »

what I found

""Dr. Tobin will not testify as to those lab results, if there's anything he wishes to add about carbon monoxide as far as environmental factors, but if he hints that there are test results, the jury has not heard about, it's going to be a mistrial, pure and simple," Judge Peter Cahill told the court. "

https://kstp.com/news/defense-could-wrap-arguments-as-soon-as-thursday-april-15-in-derek-chauvin-trial/6075977/

Yet the jury aren't sequestered, so they are free to go home and hear about them from their families/media etc.

penny piper · 16-04-2021 07:59AM

BattleCorp wrote: »

Yet the jury aren't sequestered, so they are free to go home and hear about them from their families/media etc.

Oh well you know the jury don't go home and talk about it to their families/friends etc

In this trial the jury should have been sequestered from the very begining.

16-04-2021 08:21AM

We started watching 'Them' on amazon prime
You'd have to wonder at white black relations in America,though its set in the 50's but california like :eek:
I know its drama
We are quare lucky to be living in Ireland
Good series so far though,a bit ghostly/scarey at times but worth a watch

Mellor · 16-04-2021 08:29AM

ACitizenErased wrote: »

The question isn't whether or not he killed Floyd (spoiler: he did) it's whether he did it intentionally or not imo

That's not the question.
Nor it is a matter of opinion.

bazermc wrote: »

I wonder why the state were so determined to rebut Fowlers testimony that emissions could have played a part

That's how you lay out a case in court. Pretty standard.

Vestiapx wrote: »

There is a clear moral duty of care once you take control of another person's welfare and that duty was not performed correctly.

Just to clarify, it's not just a moral duty, which is obvious there too. But under US law (sumpreme court confirmed) he has a legal duty also.

penny piper · 16-04-2021 08:39AM

Overheal wrote: »

Guilt by association?

I also don't think anyone has proven any guilt there.

I was actually asking Briany how did they know george floyd was trying to reform himself...what was their knowledge on that .

Who knows what floyd was doing in that car with morries hall (hall pleaded the 5th) but I think most people would agree if a person has a drug addiction it's well known you would still well clear of your drug dealer....especially when the car had drugs in it..

What mr.floyd could be held accountable for ...was the engine of that car running when the officers came up to him??? did he drive the car in the first place?? he was sat in a car in the driver's seat ....high on drugs/lethal amount for some people/ driving whilst under the influence of drugs????? I don't know what the law is in america but.................a guy who is about to take off in a car/driving whilst falling asleep is not a good thing. just a point btw

Sand · 16-04-2021 08:48AM

Marine Layer wrote: »

We started watching 'Them' on amazon prime
You'd have to wonder at white black relations in America,though its set in the 50's but california like :eek:
I know its drama
We are quare lucky to be living in Ireland
Good series so far though,a bit ghostly/scarey at times but worth a watch

That is a work of fiction that reflects current media narratives about white people, not a documentary on US race relations 70 years ago.

penny piper · 16-04-2021 08:51AM

Mellor wrote: »

Just to clarify, it's not just a moral duty, which is obvious there too. But under US law (sumpreme court confirmed) he has a legal duty also.

Just a simple question from a simple person...... do not paramedics have a duty of care under american law???? and if they see say eg. considered floyd was suffering harm from the police officers before they even went to take his pulse ask the officers to remove themselves from his body???? because they didn't...and only asked when they wanted to put floyd's body into the ambulance and the officers helped....

briany · 16-04-2021 09:00AM

penny piper wrote: »

I was actually asking Briany how did they know george floyd was trying to reform himself...what was their knowledge on that .

There are various sources which attest that after getting out of prison, Floyd became involved in Christian community programs, did a stint in rehab and was doing straight jobs.

You'd only need to go to Wikipedia to get a brief overview of this in his 'later life' section and click on the cited articles which attest to these things. You seem to be the only one not aware of the fact that he'd been making efforts at reform.

penny piper · 16-04-2021 09:09AM

briany wrote: »

There are various sources which attest that after getting out of prison, Floyd became involved in Christian community programs, did a stint in rehab and was doing straight jobs.

You'd only need to go to Wikipedia to get a brief overview of this in his 'later life' section and click on the cited articles which attest to these things. You seem to be the only one not aware of the fact that he'd been making efforts at reform.

So is that where Courtney Ross met George Floyd on one of these christian community programs.....when she went to visit her ex husband??

And then they began to take drugs together// you know the falsifying of prescriptions they were doing to fund their drug habit??? and is that the time where courtney ross said morries hall was supplying them with drugs? Not a great idea for reforming a drug addict to keep the company of drug dealers/drug addicts.

Personally, I wouldn't call wikpedia a reliable source of information but whatever.

You see to me that doesn't show anything about george floyd "making any effort to reform"....but that's only my opinion....

BattleCorp · 16-04-2021 09:37AM

briany wrote: »

There are various sources which attest that after getting out of prison, Floyd became involved in Christian community programs, did a stint in rehab and was doing straight jobs.

You'd only need to go to Wikipedia to get a brief overview of this in his 'later life' section and click on the cited articles which attest to these things. You seem to be the only one not aware of the fact that he'd been making efforts at reform.

He was doing as a sh1te job at reforming and staying clean to be fair.

briany · 16-04-2021 10:02AM

penny piper wrote: »

Personally, I wouldn't call wikpedia a reliable source of information but whatever.

You see to me that doesn't show anything about george floyd "making any effort to reform"....but that's only my opinion....

This is a very mid-2000s line. Look closely at the article, if you care to read it, and notice those small numbers in square brackets, which are these things called, 'citations', and they are hyperlinks to actual news articles written about the man, which the encyclopaedia entry uses as sources. The vast majority of Wikipedia articles feature these.

And as to the second point, if it's just your opinion, then you can pick and choose what efforts at reform would have counted. For me, someone who does things that are meant to be productive contributions to society after leaving prison is a positive thing, and as Floyd had been getting involved with Christian outreach programmes and doing square jobs, I would put those in that category. Certainly beats out doing the kind of things he did time for, I think any reasonable person would agree.

Mellor · 16-04-2021 10:14AM

penny piper wrote: »

Just a simple question from a simple person...... do not paramedics have a duty of care under american law???? and if they see say eg. considered floyd was suffering harm from the police officers before they even went to take his pulse ask the officers to remove themselves from his body???? because they didn't...and only asked when they wanted to put floyd's body into the ambulance and the officers helped....

Paramedics have a duty to care, and to act, within their training and abilities. So if they found Floyd dying they’d have a duty to act.
But they are citizens not officers of the law. So they’d have no power to order the police around or anything.

But I’m not sure how that impacts the charges against Chauvin.

penny piper wrote: »

You see to me that doesn't show anything about george floyd "making any effort to reform"....but that's only my opinion....

Was Chauvin aware of that?
Or was it a factor in how he treated Floyd?

Penn · 16-04-2021 10:35AM

penny piper wrote: »

So is that where Courtney Ross met George Floyd on one of these christian community programs.....when she went to visit her ex husband??

And then they began to take drugs together// you know the falsifying of prescriptions they were doing to fund their drug habit??? and is that the time where courtney ross said morries hall was supplying them with drugs? Not a great idea for reforming a drug addict to keep the company of drug dealers/drug addicts.

Personally, I wouldn't call wikpedia a reliable source of information but whatever.

You see to me that doesn't show anything about george floyd "making any effort to reform"....but that's only my opinion....

And absolutely 0% of that matters in this case.

penny piper · 16-04-2021 10:57AM

briany wrote: »

The vast majority of Wikipedia articles feature these.

And as to the second point, if it's just your opinion, then you can pick and choose what efforts at reform would have counted. For me, someone who does things that are meant to be productive contributions to society after leaving prison is a positive thing, and as Floyd had been getting involved with Christian outreach programmes and doing square jobs, I would put those in that category. Certainly beats out doing the kind of things he did time for, I think any reasonable person would agree.

You are clutching at straws sorry ..... didn't he get arrested multiple times in the past (9 of atleast I know of) for drug offenses???? Floyd left prison in 2009 after an armed robbery charge and moved from houston to minnesota with a christian work program/also to complete a drug program. He seemingly got a job for a short period of time truck driving and also worked at the salvation army where he met Courtney Ross (who was visiting her ex husband)...
As I said before ...he/she began their drug usage/along with falsyfying drug prescriptions/involvement with morris halls a drug dealer......look for the amount of time he spent without drugs was minimal....he wasn't reformed/drug addicts need to keep away from other drug addicts he didn't ...I'm a reasonable person and
I'm not in anyway trying to say that what happened to george floyd should have any bearing on the man's past ...but to make him out as some kind of saint as some people do on here is quite pathetic....

penny piper · 16-04-2021 10:59AM

Penn wrote: »

And absolutely 0% of that matters in this case.

I've actually never said it did...where did you get that from?

I was replying to someone who has the opinion george floyd was reformed.

penny piper · 16-04-2021 11:04AM

Mellor wrote: »

Paramedics have a duty to care, and to act, within their training and abilities. So if they found Floyd dying they’d have a duty to act.
But they are citizens not officers of the law. So they’d have no power to order the police around or anything.

But I’m not sure how that impacts the charges against Chauvin.

Was Chauvin aware of that?
Or was it a factor in how he treated Floyd?

Yes they are citizens but they were acting as paramedics at that time...not bystanders.

2. why should chauvan have anything to do with a question that someone said that george floyd was reformed??? I was merely replying to what Brainy posted.
it has nothing to do with chauvan or the case.

Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

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