Random EV thoughts.....

AndyBoBandy · 15-04-2021 10:02AM

Deleted User wrote: »

The currents required would be too great for any installation to be cost effective.

I think the technology will catch up though, and it will eventually be cost effective....

now I could be taking 30-50 years down the line.......

15-04-2021 10:03AM

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

I think the technology will catch up though, and it will eventually be cost effective....

now I could be taking 30-50 years down the line.......

By then all freight could be back on rails :P

ELM327 · 15-04-2021 10:04AM

unkel wrote: »

It's a much better product. Because of all the arguments I stated above. The only drawback is that it is heavier. Which is a non-issue. What difference does it make if the car is 2200 or 2300kg? It will cost 1.3c / km instead of 1.2c / km? Still many times cheaper than petrol or diesel and of course zero emissions. Still much faster, in fact the difference won't even be perceptible during fast acceleration

It's not zero emissions though.
The etron for instance is the same as driving a fossil fuel car at 70mpg. Teslas are 90-110mpge. Its not zero, it's zero tailpipe.

liamog · 15-04-2021 10:36AM

McGiver wrote: »

The Li-S example proves the exact opposite.

Li-S is not an easy incremental improvement to the current tech but a change of paradigm, completely different chemistry and not only that also different physical properties (solid state).

All the changes in Li-ion over the last say 20 years were incremental improvements to the very same cell concept and based around C-NC
-NMC cathode. The only exception to this is the LiFePo4 cathode.

I linked an example of researchers adapting the research in solid state batteries to design hybrid batteries with a combination porous electrolyte and more conventional liquid electrolyte, which leads exactly to incremental ongoing enhancements.

Oafley Jones · 15-04-2021 10:40AM

I still think there’s a massive disconnect with a lot people as regards the end goal here. It’s all boils down to energy usage, regardless of how cleanly that energy is produced. We’ll have more mindful as to how that’s spent. I can also see this as being the eventual replacement for emissions based tax systems ie cars judged on energy consumption.

the_amazing_raisin · 15-04-2021 11:07AM

Oafley Jones wrote: »

I still think there’s a massive disconnect with a lot people as regards the end goal here. It’s all boils down to energy usage, regardless of how cleanly that energy is produced. We’ll have more mindful as to how that’s spent. I can also see this as being the eventual replacement for emissions based tax systems ie cars judged on energy consumption.

I think the Netherlands or Denmark is already doing that, scaling the EV incentives based on efficiency to encourage more efficient cars

liamog · 15-04-2021 11:20AM

ELM327 wrote: »

It's not zero emissions though.

That's pedantic, zero emission vehicles generally refers to zero tailpipe emissions.
We don't use well to wheel figures for combustion vehicles so we shouldn't use generator to wheel figures for EVs. There are too many local variables to come up with a decent comparable figure.

15-04-2021 11:27AM

liamog wrote: »

That's pedantic, zero emission vehicles generally refers to zero tailpipe emissions.

That's what he said?

liamog · 15-04-2021 11:35AM

It's unnecessary to point out that a zero emission vehicle isn't really zero emission because of energy production.
It's like when people describe a home charge point as a home charger, they are technically wrong, but we all understand the intended message.

ELM327 · 15-04-2021 11:43AM

liamog wrote: »

That's pedantic, zero emission vehicles generally refers to zero tailpipe emissions.
We don't use well to wheel figures for combustion vehicles so we shouldn't use generator to wheel figures for EVs. There are too many local variables to come up with a decent comparable figure.

That's what I said though.
It was relevant as he was saying consumption is irrelevant as it's zero emissions.

If I drive 800km and recharge 3 times at a supercharger during the day, the likelihood is that was predominantly coal powered. So it's not zero emissions. It's zero tailpipe emissions which is equivalent to "re positioned emissions"

It's the same argument why hydrogen is not zero emissions.

liamog · 15-04-2021 11:54AM

ELM327 wrote: »

I drive 800km and recharge 3 times at a supercharger during the day, the likelihood is that was predominantly coal powered. So it's not zero emissions. It's zero tailpipe emissions which is equivalent to "re positioned emissions"

Was there a massive increase in coal power on the Irish grid, or are you planning a trip to Poland

The Irish grid is predominately natural gas powered.

If your going to compare the energy used in two vehicles, either do source to wheel approach or do a pump to wheel approach, don't mix the two in an effort to make one look bad.

ELM327 · 15-04-2021 11:58AM

Ok, so predominantly "not renewable" so :P

If you put an arbitrary line as the connector to the car (either fuel nozzle or plug) then you cant say because the burning happens before that line in an EV but after in a fossil car, that somehow makes it "zero emissions".

I'm not anti-ev but this is a real bugbear of mine. People who don't have EVs read the zero emissions tag, appreciate it as incorrect, and therefore disregard the other positives of EV ownership.

slave1 · 15-04-2021 12:07PM

ELM327 wrote: »

It's not zero emissions though.
The etron for instance is the same as driving a fossil fuel car at 70mpg. Teslas are 90-110mpge. Its not zero, it's zero tailpipe.

Couple of us with zero emissions with PV installs.
I've charged the Leaf off the grid once since end of February for all the town trips, granted it's not a daily 100km commute but I could easily be putting 30kWh into an EV in today's weather.
If I put up more panels (which is on the cards) I would be looking at maxing a home charge point on good days March - October.

the_amazing_raisin · 15-04-2021 12:18PM

ELM327 wrote: »

Ok, so predominantly "not renewable" so :P

If you put an arbitrary line as the connector to the car (either fuel nozzle or plug) then you cant say because the burning happens before that line in an EV but after in a fossil car, that somehow makes it "zero emissions".

I'm not anti-ev but this is a real bugbear of mine. People who don't have EVs read the zero emissions tag, appreciate it as incorrect, and therefore disregard the other positives of EV ownership.

It's a bit of a tricky one, it's like those energy providers that say they're 100% green energy and they only buy power from wind farms

The simplest explanation that I can find is that the money you pay for electricity and how the electricity you use was generated aren't very closely coupled

Essentially a renewable provider will pay renewable sources to put out the same number of kWhs that you use, but this may not be at the time you're using them

Also, electricity moves to the point of closest demand, so if you're using a charger in the cark park of Moneypoint power station, then you're probably powering your car from 100% coal. Use a charger near a wind turbine, then it's probably mostly wind power

I found a pretty good explanation of it here (UK grid, but I'm presuming it's basically the same in Ireland)

https://www.ovoenergy.com/blog/technology-and-innovation/how-does-the-national-grid-work.html

ELM327 · 15-04-2021 12:22PM

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

It's a bit of a tricky one, it's like those energy providers that say they're 100% green energy and they only buy power from wind farms

The simplest explanation that I can find is that the money you pay for electricity and how the electricity you use was generated aren't very closely coupled

Essentially a renewable provider will pay renewable sources to put out the same number of kWhs that you use, but this may not be at the time you're using them

Also, electricity moves to the point of closest demand, so if you're using a charger in the cark park of Moneypoint power station, then you're probably powering your car from 100% coal. Use a charger near a wind turbine, then it's probably mostly wind power

I found a pretty good explanation of it here (UK grid, but I'm presuming it's basically the same in Ireland)

https://www.ovoenergy.com/blog/technology-and-innovation/how-does-the-national-grid-work.html

I worked in energy pricing, more than familiar :P

slave1 wrote: »

Couple of us with zero emissions with PV installs.
I've charged the Leaf off the grid once since end of February for all the town trips, granted it's not a daily 100km commute but I could easily be putting 30kWh into an EV in today's weather.
If I put up more panels (which is on the cards) I would be looking at maxing a home charge point on good days March - October.

Good for you, great setup, hardly typical

liamog · 15-04-2021 12:23PM

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm not anti-ev but this is a real bugbear of mine. People who don't have EVs read the zero emissions tag, appreciate it as incorrect, and therefore disregard the other positives of EV ownership.

The people who are interpreting it that way are just looking for an excuse, you are just feeding their ignorance by accepting it.

My bugbear is those people who believe that source is only important for their non chosen motive power source. It's using numbers to drive an agenda.

We account for emissions in energy generation separately, just as we do for the oil refining and manufacture. Therefore we should hold them both to the same standard.

15-04-2021 12:24PM

Technically, anything that involves combustion somewhere in its process chain, cannot be classed as zero emission, now that's being pedantic. :P

liamog · 15-04-2021 12:30PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Technically, anything that involves combustion somewhere in its process chain, cannot be classed as zero emission, now that's being pedantic. :P

Doesn't even need to be combustions, a hydrogen fuel cell generates water vapour, technically that's an emission

the_amazing_raisin · 15-04-2021 12:34PM

liamog wrote: »

Doesn't even need to be combustions, a hydrogen fuel cell generates water vapour, technically that's an emission

Depending on what the driver of the delivery truck ate for lunch there could be a very serious emissions problem :eek:

liamog · 15-04-2021 12:40PM

Depends who worked on your car too, if the worker was a vegetarian then that's far less methane produced in keeping the worker going who built your car

AndyBoBandy · 15-04-2021 12:41PM

..and how often a set of rubber tyres are shipped to Ireland for you...

liamog · 15-04-2021 12:46PM

Talk about a rabbit hole

the_amazing_raisin · 15-04-2021 01:34PM

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

..and how often a set of rubber tyres are shipped to Ireland for you...

And whether the rubber in those tyres came from oil or is plant based rubber...

And whether the energy used to vulcabise the rubber came from renewable sources...

Not to mention the massive air pollution caused by EVs burning through their tyres every week

garo · 15-04-2021 11:15PM

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Not to mention the massive air pollution caused by EVs burning through their tyres every week

Every week? If I take my car out to do grocery shopping in the morning I have to put it in for tyre change in the evening.

ELM327 · 16-04-2021 10:12AM

Burning tires is nonsense. Distracting from a real discussion.

mfceiling · 16-04-2021 10:51AM

liamog wrote: »

Suitable enough for a family sedan like the Tesla Model 3.
Not every vehicle needs to be sports car than can do 0-100km/h in 5s.

0 - 100 in 3.3 seconds in my model 3!!!!

garo · 16-04-2021 11:08AM

mfceiling wrote: »

0 - 100 in 3.3 seconds in my model 3!!!!

Is that an MIC? LifePO4? If so that's pretty impressive and demolishes the anti-LiFePO4 argument comprehensively.

ELM327 · 16-04-2021 11:09AM

garo wrote: »

Is that an MIC? LifePO4? If so that's pretty impressive and demolishes the anti-LiFePO4 argument comprehensively.

No, that's the performance spec which is not delivered out of China and nor does it have the new crap cells that are in the SR+

mfceiling · 16-04-2021 11:52AM

In the motor factors earlier getting plates made up for my van. Funny to think that bar brake pads and wiper blades there's practically nothing else you need for an EV!!

ELM327 · 16-04-2021 11:52AM

mfceiling wrote: »

In the motor factors earlier getting plates made up for my van. Funny to think that bar brake pads and wiper blades there's practically nothing else you need for an EV!!

I spent €2k on suspension parts.

Random EV thoughts.....

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